Ok so now we have two wars...thanks...

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 24, 2003, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by merry
It depends on how you define empire. In my view, an empire is a statal entity that attempts universal domination under an ideological/religious pretext, "saving the world" that is. I think you can apply that - at least in some cases - to American foreign policy. However, one important characteristic of imperialism is that the empire's citizens themselves are bound to "believe" (and eliminated if they don't). The empire's doctrine is infallable, the Emperror/ayatolah/whatever has the Truth in his vest pocket, and denying that is capital crime. That doesn't apply to neither the old Brittish empire, or the current American state.

But it did apply to the Roman empire (who exported "civilization in the form of roads and public baths, unti Augustus established the cult of the Emperror and exiled/executed disidents), the Byzantine (built around Christianism), the Arab (around Islam) and later the Turkish empire (also built around Islam). It applied to the Soviet Union (who intended to liberate the working class all over the world) and WWII Germany (Hitler also posed as a saviour of the world, the inferior races had to be purged in order to maintain the human species' validity).

As long as American citizens are free to publicly criticize the administration's behaviour - like Patriotic Acts and such - as long as the official attitude is not necessarily the Truth, the US doesn't qualify as an empire, imo.

Yes...but technically the Partiot act allows the Us government to over rule the freedom of speech.The patriot act allows the authorities to arrest anyone whoever it may be on whatever grounds they find suitable and keep this person arrested without notifying the public or the defendant abour what he is accused of.

There are also new laws (which i dont know if they are part of the Patriot act) that allows the US government to kill anyone anywhere in the world they want upon suspicion without trial and..also without notifying the public.

So what you say is needed for an "empire" is alrerady there,If its is not "in use"...welll...it isnt now perhaps(Who is gonna be able to control it??) but i can legally be used.

A law that demands on librarians to inform intelligence about what books peole read in public libraries....is in my mind a very very peculiar law.

Bluelight

Bluelight

merry · Mar 24, 2003, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bluelight
A law that demands on librarians to inform intelligence about what books peole read in public libraries....is in my mind a very very peculiar law.

Lol, I didn't know about that law. In the late 80s it was thought that secret police had an interest in the registered members of the American Library in Bucharest, which had consequently created a "reference room", where non members could read whatever was in that room... mainly newspapers. It was thought that there was some kind of monitoring - by the secret police - of any people entering the Library...

Sounds so strange to hear about this "library law".

Reuter · Mar 29, 2003, 07:18 PM

I agree with bluelight.
The US is no democracy anymore since they voted the patriot act.
Even Saddam would be delighted to have such a law in his country?

Not that he needs it, but it is very handy for shure
Can you imagine that those very same soldiers who's votes weren't accounted in last elections are now doing the dirtywork .

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 29, 2003, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by merry
Lol, I didn't know about that law. In the late 80s it was thought that secret police had an interest in the registered members of the American Library in Bucharest, which had consequently created a "reference room", where non members could read whatever was in that room... mainly newspapers. It was thought that there was some kind of monitoring - by the secret police - of any people entering the Library...

Sounds so strange to hear about this "library law".

The library thing is just a small part of this law.Generally this law allows for the US government to monitor its citizens in a way not seen ever before i think.

Bluelight

Falstaff · Mar 30, 2003, 04:22 AM

The U.S. is a democracy, whether you agree or not, The patriot act just allows law enforcement to act more quickly to pursue possible internal and external threats from enemies foreign and domestic, I just hope I am not mistaken for a terrorist when I am taking photographs in the Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona, and Utah desert..ha ha...

Falstaff · Mar 30, 2003, 04:26 AM

What is the USA PATRIOT Act?

The USA PATRIOT Act stands for the Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001. The legislation is broad and changes immigration laws, tightens controls on money laundering, and greatly expands the legal use of electronic surveillance.

The Act greatly expands the use of "roving wiretaps." This means that a wiretap order targeted to a person is no longer confined to a particular computer or telephone. Instead, it may “rove” wherever the target goes, which may include library computers. The new law allows a court to issue an order that is valid anywhere in the U.S. This greatly increases a library's exposure to court orders. Further, the use of pen/trap orders is now "technology neutral" and applies to the Internet as well as telephones. Whereas incoming and outgoing phone numbers have long been available upon the mere showing that they are relevant to an ongoing investigation, now email headers and URLs visited are available under the same low standard. Civil liberties advocates argued that such information is not analogous to phone numbers, but far more revealing (including, for example, the keywords used in Google searches such as http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mary+minow).

Much of the Act expands the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), in which the standards for courts to approve surveillance of foreign intelligence gathering are far less demanding than those required for approval of a criminal wiretap, which requires a showing of probable cause.

Falstaff · Mar 30, 2003, 04:28 AM

want info on foriegn intelligence try this link http://www.eff.org/Censorship/Terror.../fisa_faq.html

Reuter · Mar 30, 2003, 02:16 PM

The question is: where does it start and where will it end?
I am not that shure about it.
If a democracy fears its own people and seeks to protect the others that much there is something wrong with that democracy or the things it stands for.
There are no laws going that far in the whole of Europe.
Or perhaps in the UK maybe?

raid517 · Mar 30, 2003, 02:28 PM

Not in the UK, not yet... So far we've refrained from threatening to lock our citizens up without charge. This is only one of the things this new patriot act allows for.

Q

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 30, 2003, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fallang_jeff
The U.S. is a democracy, whether you agree or not, The patriot act just allows law enforcement to act more quickly to pursue possible internal and external threats from enemies foreign and domestic, I just hope I am not mistaken for a terrorist when I am taking photographs in the Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona, and Utah desert..ha ha...

Well..you are wrong because the Patriot act actually allows your government to steal your right from you when they find it useful.

It also allows tem to do so without informing you or anyone else about the rights they take away from you.

The patriot act has got no resemblence in any of the western democracys...and personally i would be out in the streets yelling all thge time had they tries to imply similar laws here.

Bluelight

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 30, 2003, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
Not in the UK, not yet... So far we've refrained from threatening to lock our citizens up without charge. This is only one of the things this new patriot act allows for.

Q

Yes it also allows for the US government to kill anybody in the world anywhere to their liking.They do not have tyo declare to anybody of their actions etc etc..

Yes it is an ugly law written by an ugly fundamantalist government.

Benji says:

"Those that sell out freedom of speech for security.....

Deserves none of them."

Hmm.....why is it that i......qoute Benjamin Franklin ???

Im not American...!??

BlueBenjamin

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 30, 2003, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fallang_jeff
What is the USA PATRIOT Act?

The USA PATRIOT Act stands for the Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001. The legislation is broad and changes immigration laws, tightens controls on money laundering, and greatly expands the legal use of electronic surveillance.

The Act greatly expands the use of "roving wiretaps." This means that a wiretap order targeted to a person is no longer confined to a particular computer or telephone. Instead, it may “rove” wherever the target goes, which may include library computers. The new law allows a court to issue an order that is valid anywhere in the U.S. This greatly increases a library's exposure to court orders. Further, the use of pen/trap orders is now "technology neutral" and applies to the Internet as well as telephones. Whereas incoming and outgoing phone numbers have long been available upon the mere showing that they are relevant to an ongoing investigation, now email headers and URLs visited are available under the same low standard. Civil liberties advocates argued that such information is not analogous to phone numbers, but far more revealing (including, for example, the keywords used in Google searches such as http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mary+minow).

Much of the Act expands the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), in which the standards for courts to approve surveillance of foreign intelligence gathering are far less demanding than those required for approval of a criminal wiretap, which requires a showing of probable cause.

And...yes they also actually told librarians to report to intelligence...what kind of litterature peole read.....IN PUBLIC LIBRARIES!!

There was an uproar among librarians but as far as i know ..the demand was never withdrawn.

Apart from this the law...is a rubber law that can be bent and stretched to fit any imagined or unimagined wish to monitor people.

It also allows for authorities to arrest anyone without presenting accusations to the arrested or anyone else without giving a trial..and finally it allows also to kill anybody in the world without trial lawyers etc etc...

It allows that anyone is held arrested indefinatly witout trial or that accusations are presented..
This......is already happening.

There is no gurantee whatsoever for the individual citizen that the law isnt used in a wrong way since there is no way in hell to control it.

It is a type of law only used in states with extreme opression.

Bluelight

Reuter · Mar 30, 2003, 03:38 PM

I am glad Europe is still not infested yet.
I to would take the streets against such a proposal.

I think it is an American custom to emotionally overreact on things.
But this is going way to far.

Time for a little impeachment action if you ask me

Falstaff · Mar 30, 2003, 08:06 PM

I worked in a Naval Library in Yokosuka Japan, we report lots of things that are "out of hand" unusual, but there is software out there that U.S. government can give to public libraries (if they participate) that can allow them to comb out information for possible investigation..it's been around for awhile. Now some states here are being asked to eliminate firewalls to allow the U.S. government to further peer into more sophisticated networks, looking for possible threats. The U.S. military and our various security agencies already monitor the airwaves and cell phones, what is next, sheesh...Big Brother is taking a more active interest in our lives....

Falstaff · Mar 30, 2003, 08:12 PM

This is a useful link for U.S. internet monitoring issues.http://www.securityfocus.com/news

Mar 30, 2003, 04:22 AM	#95
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	And they do.... The U.S. is a democracy, whether you agree or not, The patriot act just allows law enforcement to act more quickly to pursue possible internal and external threats from enemies foreign and domestic, I just hope I am not mistaken for a terrorist when I am taking photographs in the Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona, and Utah desert..ha ha... __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Mar 30, 2003, 04:26 AM	#96
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Impact of the patriot act.. What is the USA PATRIOT Act? The USA PATRIOT Act stands for the Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001. The legislation is broad and changes immigration laws, tightens controls on money laundering, and greatly expands the legal use of electronic surveillance. The Act greatly expands the use of "roving wiretaps." This means that a wiretap order targeted to a person is no longer confined to a particular computer or telephone. Instead, it may “rove” wherever the target goes, which may include library computers. The new law allows a court to issue an order that is valid anywhere in the U.S. This greatly increases a library's exposure to court orders. Further, the use of pen/trap orders is now "technology neutral" and applies to the Internet as well as telephones. Whereas incoming and outgoing phone numbers have long been available upon the mere showing that they are relevant to an ongoing investigation, now email headers and URLs visited are available under the same low standard. Civil liberties advocates argued that such information is not analogous to phone numbers, but far more revealing (including, for example, the keywords used in Google searches such as http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mary+minow). Much of the Act expands the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), in which the standards for courts to approve surveillance of foreign intelligence gathering are far less demanding than those required for approval of a criminal wiretap, which requires a showing of probable cause.

Mar 30, 2003, 04:28 AM	#97
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	FISA want info on foriegn intelligence try this link http://www.eff.org/Censorship/Terror.../fisa_faq.html __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Mar 30, 2003, 08:06 PM	#104
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Bluelight I worked in a Naval Library in Yokosuka Japan, we report lots of things that are "out of hand" unusual, but there is software out there that U.S. government can give to public libraries (if they participate) that can allow them to comb out information for possible investigation..it's been around for awhile. Now some states here are being asked to eliminate firewalls to allow the U.S. government to further peer into more sophisticated networks, looking for possible threats. The U.S. military and our various security agencies already monitor the airwaves and cell phones, what is next, sheesh...Big Brother is taking a more active interest in our lives.... __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Mar 30, 2003, 08:12 PM	#105
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	More info This is a useful link for U.S. internet monitoring issues.http://www.securityfocus.com/news __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Mar 29, 2003, 07:18 PM	#93
Reuter DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Belgium, three feet from my monitor Posts: 55 Rep Power: 0	I agree with bluelight. The US is no democracy anymore since they voted the patriot act. Even Saddam would be delighted to have such a law in his country? Not that he needs it, but it is very handy for shure Can you imagine that those very same soldiers who's votes weren't accounted in last elections are now doing the dirtywork .

Mar 30, 2003, 02:16 PM	#98
Reuter DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Belgium, three feet from my monitor Posts: 55 Rep Power: 0	The question is: where does it start and where will it end? I am not that shure about it. If a democracy fears its own people and seeks to protect the others that much there is something wrong with that democracy or the things it stands for. There are no laws going that far in the whole of Europe. Or perhaps in the UK maybe?

Mar 30, 2003, 02:28 PM	#99
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Not in the UK, not yet... So far we've refrained from threatening to lock our citizens up without charge. This is only one of the things this new patriot act allows for. Q

Mar 30, 2003, 03:38 PM	#103
Reuter DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Belgium, three feet from my monitor Posts: 55 Rep Power: 0	I am glad Europe is still not infested yet. I to would take the streets against such a proposal. I think it is an American custom to emotionally overreact on things. But this is going way to far. Time for a little impeachment action if you ask me