Ok so now we have two wars...thanks...

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 22, 2003, 07:46 AM

Just as expected........Turkey has moved in to the Kurdish regions of Northern Iraq that up until now has been under protection of Usa against Saddam.

There they (the Kurds) have been at peace since 92 93.....

What will happen now is that the Kurds will fight the Turks.....and eventually the Turks will take the Place of Saddam.

Bluelight

Dom · Mar 22, 2003, 07:53 AM

Lets hope not.

Vampyromaniac · Mar 22, 2003, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bluelight
What will happen now is that the Kurds will fight the Turks.....and eventually the Turks will take the Place of Saddam.

Eh Nostradamus?

Falstaff · Mar 22, 2003, 02:35 PM

The Turks have the same animosity towards the Kurds as they did to the Armenians, I think the don't want the Kurds to seize the oilfields and set up an independent regime like the Kuwaiti's. Or perhaps they want to deny their borders to Kurdish refugees..

raid517 · Mar 22, 2003, 04:11 PM

For the Turks its all about money and a mistrust of American intentions in the region. They didn't like America's ham fisted attempts to blackmail them into accepting American troops on their soil (there is a lot of bad sentiment in the Turkish press about this right now) and they think that in any case they can get a much better deal out of seizing control of the oil fields in the North. To their credit American forces have warned them against this and that if they do it their safety cannot be guaranteed. However the reality is that if they do move there is very little America can do about it because the Turks are an ally and have allowed them to use their airspace. Now there are Iranian revolutionaries marching through the streets of the autonomous Kurdish region shouting for an Islamic revolution (really just a cover for Iranian interest in Kurdish oil) so if the Turks do invade, it looks possible that Iran could get involved in a fight on a pretext of acting on behalf of the Kurds and thereby seek to expand their own interests in the region.

This would mean that the whole Mid East would open up in a massive war. The chances are slim, but it all depends on what the Turks do. So far 10,000 troops is not a major event, but there are reports that there are some 70,000 troops waiting to cross the border at any moment.

So everyone will no doubt be watching what the Turks do very closely indeed.

Q

Falstaff · Mar 22, 2003, 04:59 PM

My father was served in turkey during he 70's and I lived in Greece, and during the cyrpriot conflict the greeks and turks went toe to toe with weaposn supplied by the U.S. He was impressed with the turks and told me that he Turks would take on anyone even if all they had was bag of rocks! sheesh

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 22, 2003, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
For the Turks its all about money and a mistrust of American intentions in the region. They didn't like America's ham fisted attempts to blackmail them into accepting American troops on their soil (there is a lot of bad sentiment in the Turkish press about this right now) and they think that in any case they can get a much better deal out of seizing control of the oil fields in the North. To their credit American forces have warned them against this and that if they do it their safety cannot be guaranteed. However the reality is that if they do move there is very little America can do about it because the Turks are an ally and have allowed them to use their airspace. Now there are Iranian revolutionaries marching through the streets of the autonomous Kurdish region shouting for an Islamic revolution (really just a cover for Iranian interest in Kurdish oil) so if the Turks do invade, it looks possible that Iran could get involved in a fight on a pretext of acting on behalf of the Kurds and thereby seek to expand their own interests in the region.

This would mean that the whole Mid East would open up in a massive war. The chances are slim, but it all depends on what the Turks do. So far 10,000 troops is not a major event, but there are reports that there are some 70,000 troops waiting to cross the border at any moment.

So everyone will no doubt be watching what the Turks do very closely indeed.

Q

Well it is likely i guess that the moment the Kurds start shooting at the 10 000....the 70 000 will cross the border.

Bluelight

Falstaff · Mar 22, 2003, 05:09 PM

Right now ethinic Kurds in Turkey enjoy more cultural expression and some even serve in the turkish military, I surely hope it doesn't come to that, and to be accurate, not all Kurds are the same, different families, factions or tribes...The only Kurds I have ever met were all christian too, they genuinely don't like fundamentalists muslims either...but they have coexisted peacefully for the most part for centuries..I think the Al Quiada might the catalyst for conflict..(again) in that region.

raid517 · Mar 22, 2003, 06:01 PM

Well I don't know about the Turks being nice to the Kurds in their own Terratory either, as far as I'm aware they have suffered massive political repression inside Turkey and have had many of their most prominant political leaders thrown in jail without charge. Inside Iraq they have been guilty of acts of brutality an genocide against a people who's only crime was that they said that they wanted to rule themselves. So as far as the Turks and the Kurds getting along goes, you can pretty much forget about that...

Q

GOG · Mar 22, 2003, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
Well I don't know about the Turks being nice to the Kurds in their own Terratory either, as far as I'm aware they have suffered massive political repression inside Turkey and have had many of their most prominant political leaders thrown in jail without charge. Inside Iraq they have been guilty of acts of brutality an genocide against a people who's only crime was that they said that they wanted to rule themselves. So as far as the Turks and the Kurds getting along goes, you can pretty much forget about that...

Q

Yes, I think you got it spot on there mate. Turkey is one of the countries that are still torturing people and hunting down political opponents, this is the main reason why they are not a fully member of EU yet. It is also another fine example of the hypocracy that has infected the american government. As long as a country serves the interests of USA, USA is willing to let these things slip, it's the same with Israel.

Falstaff · Mar 22, 2003, 07:37 PM

I am afraid another diplomatic black eye for us..but we need Turkish support.....and airspace, and runways, and...etc....

Falstaff · Mar 22, 2003, 07:49 PM

Insights from the Turkish News:

Here's a quote from a Turkish Daily News commentary by Mr. Birand on one of the reasons why Turkey turned away the US. I have edited it slightly for readability. To read the entire article in English, please click link.

"The cadres of KADEK (formerly the PKK) and the Democratic People's Party, DEHAP, are definitely against an American presence in Turkey's Southeast and in Northern Iraq. They take part in demonstrations and campaigns to this effect.

(In fact, a great number of the parliament members elected from the Southeastern provinces, the Justice and Development Party (AKP) congressmen included, have voted against the troop deployment motion. And they intend to do that again if the government submits a new motion.)

Why?

The main reason is the assumption that the American army could hamper many of their activities and that it would deliver a blow to their military presence in Northern Iraq. They believe that the American military would cooperate with the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) and that the KADEK militants would come under pressure." MAB

Note: PKK, a Kurdish separatist terrorist organization founded by Abdullah Ocalan, changed its name to KADEK after it was officially categorized as a terror organization by the international community. DEHAP is a Kurdish political party. Congressmen who represent the Southeastern part of Turkey tend to be of Kurdish ethnicity regardless of party affiliation.

raid517 · Mar 22, 2003, 08:06 PM

Well none of that makes any sense to me Jeff, the PKK were formed as a reaction to Turkish repression in Northern Iraq. You might not like their tactics, but at least they keep their dispute local, as do Hamas and Hezbollah, who on the whole are only a pain in the ass for those they are fighting against. In any case The PKK are a Kurdish leftist separatist movement, so nothing to do with why the Turks denied the US permission to put lan forces on the ground prior to an invasion of Iraq. Basically as I said, they looked at what was on offer and what they had to loose - and pretty much decided the numbers didn't add up. Besides there is an awful lot of genuine resistance inside Turkey to American involvement in the region. It wasn't all about money, many politicians feared for their jobs, or for their lives, due to Americans setting up bases in their country. I think in the end they played the safest card they could.

Q

The_Neon_Cowboy · Mar 22, 2003, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bluelight
Just as expected........Turkey has moved in to the Kurdish regions of Northern Iraq that up until now has been under protection of Usa against Saddam.

There they (the Kurds) have been at peace since 92 93.....

What will happen now is that the Kurds will fight the Turks.....and eventually the Turks will take the Place of Saddam.

Bluelight

no they just peave the US off and we will go stomp a mudhole in thier.... also, the turks now deny they now sending any troops in to iraq

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 22, 2003, 09:15 PM

Yes they deny that now and i heard the Kurds also deny the Turks has gone in.....so far........

Bluelight

~~ByteMe~~ · Mar 22, 2003, 10:38 PM

With any luck this could just be another reason for the USA to go in and take over the entire middle east and put things the way we want. At least I can hope.

raid517 · Mar 22, 2003, 10:51 PM

And we cam all hope that someday ByteMe might say something sensible. Sadly it doesn't seem to be happening...

Q

UberLord · Mar 22, 2003, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ByteMe
With any luck this could just be another reason for the USA to go in and take over the entire middle east and put things the way we want. At least I can hope.

How about letting the people of the Middle East run the Middle East the way they want?

Democracy good - USA control bad.

USA wants to control everything - bad. Ever wondered why a lot of organisations (like say Nominet) and countries (like say Palestine) really don't like the USA?

~~ByteMe~~ · Mar 22, 2003, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UberLord
How about letting the people of the Middle East run the Middle East the way they want?

Democracy good - USA control bad.

USA wants to control everything - bad. Ever wondered why a lot of organisations (like say Nominet) and countries (like say Palestine) really don't like the USA?

You couldn't be further from the truth. Why didn't the USA keep everything it won during any war the last 50 years?

raid517 · Mar 23, 2003, 12:12 AM

That's nonsesense. Every war Americans have been involved in for the last 60 years, they left military bases behind. They came they saw - and then they never bloody left. I mean talk about out staying your welcome...

Well I don't suppose shouting about it will change anything. But the American Empire is very real, even if most Americans deny that's what it is.

Q

UberLord · Mar 23, 2003, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ByteMe
You couldn't be further from the truth. Why didn't the USA keep everything it won during any war the last 50 years?

Theres a big difference between owning something and controlling something.
USA isn't interested in "owning" Iraq for example - they just wish to control it.
And of course get US construction companies owned by Dick Chenney to rebuild it.

Controlling is all - infact they'ed rather not "own" it as they are then publically and politicallty responsible. Much better to control behind the scenes pulling the strings on the puppets they want to run the country.

UberLord · Mar 23, 2003, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
Well I don't suppose shouting about it will change anything. But the American Empire is very real, even if most Americans deny that's what it is.

True, but unlike the old British Empire I very much doubt that it would be given back peacefully.
Did you know that? Making the empire was bloody and barbaric. And very shameful.

However, we saw the light and gave it back to the rightful people. Hong Kong was a recent example.

raid517 · Mar 23, 2003, 12:22 AM

I've said it before, this is exactly how the romans and the British ran their empires. They saw, the coveted, they conqured, then they pursuaded the local leaders to play ball because if they did they would gain big time in terms of money and power. Then they pulled out leaving a relatively small (though not always) military base behind to remind the local population of the concequences of not doing things the way the empirical leaders wanted them to. It is an empire in everything but name.

Q

UberLord · Mar 23, 2003, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
I've said it before, this is exactly how the romans and the British ran their empires. They saw, the coveted, they conqured, then they pursuaded the local leaders to play ball because if they did they would gain big time in terms of money and power. Then they pulled out leaving a relatively small (though not always) military base behind to remind the local population of the concequences of not doing things the way the empirical leaders wanted them to. It is an empire in everything but name.

Q

AFAIK the UK doesn't have any military outside of the EU unless we "own" the country (like the Fauklands for example). However as my history is very flaky on this I may be wrong

raid517 · Mar 23, 2003, 12:30 AM

Hong Kong isn't a particularly good example. We had that on a hundred year lease. We had to give that back in the end. The good thing about this is all things must eventually come to an end. I think 50 or 100 years from now Asia, or China in particular will be the new superpower. That would freak me out a little as although I'm not racist, it would mean the end of the 2000 year old tradition of Northern European Nordic/Germanic domination of the world. Still, I won't be around to see it, so not really my problem I guess.

Oh well, on the big scale of things none of this is likely to affect ordinary people's lives. This is just powerful rich men fighting over dirt and money, just as they always have and always will do...

Q

raid517 · Mar 23, 2003, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by UberLord
AFAIK the UK doesn't have any military outside of the EU unless we "own" the country (like the Fauklands for example). However as my history is very flaky on this I may be wrong

Well the reason Britian gave up most of its Empire is because we just couldn't go on paying for it anymore. It was just too damn expensive. No doubt Americans will eventually find this out too...

Q

~~ByteMe~~ · Mar 23, 2003, 12:55 AM

AFAIK the USA PAYS the country to put a base there. We could of just kept it all.

raid517 · Mar 23, 2003, 02:22 AM

Well everybody has to pay their bills Byte. I don't know what that has to do with America having military bases in almost every corner of the world. I don't think the population of many of these countries gains much from the American military presence. The people who do gain are the leaders of these countries. They get money and power, just as has always been the case in every empire throughout history.

Q

UberLord · Mar 23, 2003, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
Well everybody has to pay their bills Byte. I don't know what that has to do with America having military bases in almost every corner of the world. I don't think the population of many of these countries gains much from the American military presence. The people who do gain are the leaders of these countries. They get money and power, just as has always been the case in every empire throughout history.

Q

What ByteMe was saying is that the US says "here's a vast wad of cash each year for allowing us to have a base". And I've got no problem with that - the selling country has to accept the consequencies.

As to what that country gains - who knows. Maybe they get family ties to the US by the local call girls getting themselves pregant or special deals that the US government turns a blind eye too. But in each and every case, countries that host other countries military bases always gain and loose something - neither of which may be immediately obvious

raid517 · Mar 23, 2003, 02:39 AM

It seems pretty obvious to me Uber... Global dominance and the formation of a new American Empire. Call girls aside, I think local leaders have a lot to gain by associating with the Empirical power. It is the lpopulations of these countries that usually have the most to loose.

Q

Mar 22, 2003, 07:46 AM	#1
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Ok so now we have two wars...thanks... Just as expected........Turkey has moved in to the Kurdish regions of Northern Iraq that up until now has been under protection of Usa against Saddam. There they (the Kurds) have been at peace since 92 93..... What will happen now is that the Kurds will fight the Turks.....and eventually the Turks will take the Place of Saddam. Bluelight

Mar 22, 2003, 02:35 PM	#4
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	I don't think The Turks have the same animosity towards the Kurds as they did to the Armenians, I think the don't want the Kurds to seize the oilfields and set up an independent regime like the Kuwaiti's. Or perhaps they want to deny their borders to Kurdish refugees.. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Mar 22, 2003, 04:59 PM	#6
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	The turks My father was served in turkey during he 70's and I lived in Greece, and during the cyrpriot conflict the greeks and turks went toe to toe with weaposn supplied by the U.S. He was impressed with the turks and told me that he Turks would take on anyone even if all they had was bag of rocks! sheesh __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Mar 22, 2003, 05:09 PM	#8
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	It doesn't take much Right now ethinic Kurds in Turkey enjoy more cultural expression and some even serve in the turkish military, I surely hope it doesn't come to that, and to be accurate, not all Kurds are the same, different families, factions or tribes...The only Kurds I have ever met were all christian too, they genuinely don't like fundamentalists muslims either...but they have coexisted peacefully for the most part for centuries..I think the Al Quiada might the catalyst for conflict..(again) in that region. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Mar 22, 2003, 07:37 PM	#11
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	yep I am afraid another diplomatic black eye for us..but we need Turkish support.....and airspace, and runways, and...etc.... __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Mar 22, 2003, 07:53 AM	#2
Dom DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 12,940 Rep Power: 0	Lets hope not.

Mar 22, 2003, 04:11 PM	#5
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	For the Turks its all about money and a mistrust of American intentions in the region. They didn't like America's ham fisted attempts to blackmail them into accepting American troops on their soil (there is a lot of bad sentiment in the Turkish press about this right now) and they think that in any case they can get a much better deal out of seizing control of the oil fields in the North. To their credit American forces have warned them against this and that if they do it their safety cannot be guaranteed. However the reality is that if they do move there is very little America can do about it because the Turks are an ally and have allowed them to use their airspace. Now there are Iranian revolutionaries marching through the streets of the autonomous Kurdish region shouting for an Islamic revolution (really just a cover for Iranian interest in Kurdish oil) so if the Turks do invade, it looks possible that Iran could get involved in a fight on a pretext of acting on behalf of the Kurds and thereby seek to expand their own interests in the region. This would mean that the whole Mid East would open up in a massive war. The chances are slim, but it all depends on what the Turks do. So far 10,000 troops is not a major event, but there are reports that there are some 70,000 troops waiting to cross the border at any moment. So everyone will no doubt be watching what the Turks do very closely indeed. Q

Mar 22, 2003, 06:01 PM	#9
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Well I don't know about the Turks being nice to the Kurds in their own Terratory either, as far as I'm aware they have suffered massive political repression inside Turkey and have had many of their most prominant political leaders thrown in jail without charge. Inside Iraq they have been guilty of acts of brutality an genocide against a people who's only crime was that they said that they wanted to rule themselves. So as far as the Turks and the Kurds getting along goes, you can pretty much forget about that... Q

Mar 22, 2003, 07:49 PM	#12
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Kurds and Turks Insights from the Turkish News: Here's a quote from a Turkish Daily News commentary by Mr. Birand on one of the reasons why Turkey turned away the US. I have edited it slightly for readability. To read the entire article in English, please click link. "The cadres of KADEK (formerly the PKK) and the Democratic People's Party, DEHAP, are definitely against an American presence in Turkey's Southeast and in Northern Iraq. They take part in demonstrations and campaigns to this effect. (In fact, a great number of the parliament members elected from the Southeastern provinces, the Justice and Development Party (AKP) congressmen included, have voted against the troop deployment motion. And they intend to do that again if the government submits a new motion.) Why? The main reason is the assumption that the American army could hamper many of their activities and that it would deliver a blow to their military presence in Northern Iraq. They believe that the American military would cooperate with the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) and that the KADEK militants would come under pressure." MAB Note: PKK, a Kurdish separatist terrorist organization founded by Abdullah Ocalan, changed its name to KADEK after it was officially categorized as a terror organization by the international community. DEHAP is a Kurdish political party. Congressmen who represent the Southeastern part of Turkey tend to be of Kurdish ethnicity regardless of party affiliation.

Mar 22, 2003, 08:06 PM	#13
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Well none of that makes any sense to me Jeff, the PKK were formed as a reaction to Turkish repression in Northern Iraq. You might not like their tactics, but at least they keep their dispute local, as do Hamas and Hezbollah, who on the whole are only a pain in the ass for those they are fighting against. In any case The PKK are a Kurdish leftist separatist movement, so nothing to do with why the Turks denied the US permission to put lan forces on the ground prior to an invasion of Iraq. Basically as I said, they looked at what was on offer and what they had to loose - and pretty much decided the numbers didn't add up. Besides there is an awful lot of genuine resistance inside Turkey to American involvement in the region. It wasn't all about money, many politicians feared for their jobs, or for their lives, due to Americans setting up bases in their country. I think in the end they played the safest card they could. Q

Mar 22, 2003, 09:15 PM	Thread Starter #15
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Yes they deny that now and i heard the Kurds also deny the Turks has gone in.....so far........ Bluelight

Mar 22, 2003, 10:38 PM	#16
~~ByteMe~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 761 Rep Power: 0	With any luck this could just be another reason for the USA to go in and take over the entire middle east and put things the way we want. At least I can hope.

Mar 22, 2003, 10:51 PM	#17
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	And we cam all hope that someday ByteMe might say something sensible. Sadly it doesn't seem to be happening... Q

Mar 23, 2003, 12:12 AM	#20
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	That's nonsesense. Every war Americans have been involved in for the last 60 years, they left military bases behind. They came they saw - and then they never bloody left. I mean talk about out staying your welcome... Well I don't suppose shouting about it will change anything. But the American Empire is very real, even if most Americans deny that's what it is. Q

Mar 23, 2003, 12:22 AM	#23
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	I've said it before, this is exactly how the romans and the British ran their empires. They saw, the coveted, they conqured, then they pursuaded the local leaders to play ball because if they did they would gain big time in terms of money and power. Then they pulled out leaving a relatively small (though not always) military base behind to remind the local population of the concequences of not doing things the way the empirical leaders wanted them to. It is an empire in everything but name. Q

Mar 23, 2003, 12:30 AM	#25
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Hong Kong isn't a particularly good example. We had that on a hundred year lease. We had to give that back in the end. The good thing about this is all things must eventually come to an end. I think 50 or 100 years from now Asia, or China in particular will be the new superpower. That would freak me out a little as although I'm not racist, it would mean the end of the 2000 year old tradition of Northern European Nordic/Germanic domination of the world. Still, I won't be around to see it, so not really my problem I guess. Oh well, on the big scale of things none of this is likely to affect ordinary people's lives. This is just powerful rich men fighting over dirt and money, just as they always have and always will do... Q

Mar 23, 2003, 12:55 AM	#27
~~ByteMe~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 761 Rep Power: 0	AFAIK the USA PAYS the country to put a base there. We could of just kept it all.

Mar 23, 2003, 02:22 AM	#28
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Well everybody has to pay their bills Byte. I don't know what that has to do with America having military bases in almost every corner of the world. I don't think the population of many of these countries gains much from the American military presence. The people who do gain are the leaders of these countries. They get money and power, just as has always been the case in every empire throughout history. Q

Mar 23, 2003, 02:39 AM	#30
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	It seems pretty obvious to me Uber... Global dominance and the formation of a new American Empire. Call girls aside, I think local leaders have a lot to gain by associating with the Empirical power. It is the lpopulations of these countries that usually have the most to loose. Q