US officials contemplate torture to prevent terrorism.

raid517 · Mar 27, 2003, 11:44 PM

Well in another indication of America's backward slide into a state of totalitarianism is has become evident recently that US officials are increasingly advocating the use of torture as a means of extracting information from terrorist suspects:

Quote:

The "T word," as Rumsfeld prefers it to be called, has been percolating through legal and military circles for some months. Is the brutalization of one life justified if it could save thousands? According to a CNN/USA Today poll last fall, 45% of Americans surveyed supported torture to prevent attacks. Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz has endorsed the issuance of "torture warrants" in the rarest of instances. While ethicists remain squeamish at the prospect of torturing low-level al-Qaeda recruits who probably aren't privy to life-sparing information, the stakes may be different in Zubaydah's case. Anthony D'Amato, a professor at Northwestern University School of Law who has defended a doctor charged with genocide, finds torture legally reprehensible but sees some moral wiggle room when it comes to Zubaydah. "In the realm of morality, while torturing a human being is forbidden, it is nevertheless required to save human lives," he says.

Source: Time Magazine.

Quote:

IF AMERICAN law enforcement officers were ever to confront the law school hypothetical case of the captured terrorist who knew about an imminent attack but refused to provide the information necessary to prevent it, I have absolutely no doubt that they would try to torture the terrorists into providing the information.

"Moreover, the vast majority of Americans would expect the officers to engage in that time-tested technique for loosening tongues, notwithstanding our unequivocal treaty obligation never to employ torture, no matter how exigent the circumstances. The real question is not whether torture would be used ... it would ... but whether it would be used outside of the law or within the law."

"In my new book, "Shouting Fire: Civil Liberties in a Turbulent Age,'' I offer a controversial proposal designed to stimulate debate about this difficult issue. Under my proposal, no torture would be permitted without a "torture warrant'' being issued by a judge."

"An application for a torture warrant would have to be based on the absolute need to obtain immediate information in order to save lives coupled with probable cause that the suspect had such information and is unwilling to reveal it."

"The suspect would be given immunity from prosecution based on information elicited by the torture. The warrant would limit the torture to nonlethal means, such as sterile needles, being inserted beneath the nails to cause excruciating pain without endangering life."

Source: Alan Dershowitz , darling of the conservative right - and Rumsfeld and company's ideological and intellectual Guru.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4591200,00.html

The subject for discussion is, is torture a valid means of extracting information under any circumstances? Should the American administration actively seek to recruit an army of orthodontists skilled in the art of dentistry without pain killers? It seems that many on the right certainly feel that this is a legitimate way of obtaining intelligence from terrorist suspects. (Remember under the new Patriot 2 act, any US, or international citizen can be arrested, detained indefinitely and held without charge, all purely on the suspicion that they might be a terrorist, or have information about terrorists. Now it seems they can be tortured too). I can almost see the usual lines of division being drawn here, but I thought it a good topic for discussion anyway. So what do you think? Is it justified or not?

Q

Falstaff · Mar 28, 2003, 04:12 AM

It might be more useful to place things into perspective, assuming one new all the circumstances for using torture, regardless of definition. Because we possess the medical skills to introduce a drug or drugs in a sort of truth serum cocktail, to extract what we need from someone. Torture is used now of the battlefield to obtain foxhole confessions, from the barrel of a gun, you might actually get whatever you need to know from almost anyone, with threats, and there are more subtle forms of torture, I am not sure what the purpose of torture would be unless to meet the immediate needs of law enforcement to save lives to render explosives inert, to rescue hostages, etc...The military explaination is the simplest...

raid517 · Mar 28, 2003, 05:49 AM

No Jeff were not talking about battlefield 'heat of the moment' stuff, were talking about cold calculated premeditated and state sanctioned torture. This guy wants to introduce torture warrants that can be 'legally' obtained from a judge, in order to extract information from a terrorist subject. The military perspective may be simpler, but its no less brutal. We all know the military would use torture if they were allowed to. Indeed it is already a time honoured American practice, as I' sure you will discover here. I would suggest reading number 8 here as a good starting point to understand that people who were there actually witnessed these things.

Personally I would say that there is never an excuse for torture, not the kind of torture that these people are talking about anyway. (They try to pretty it up by calling it 'non lethal torture, which essentially means electric shocks, inserting sterile needles under people's fingernails, performing dental surgery without anaesthetics, etc, all of which these people have advocated).

What I would like to know is if you indulge in acts of state sanctioned torture, what separates you from the people you are suppose to be fighting? What exactly is it that makes you any better than them?

Q

Falstaff · Mar 28, 2003, 06:51 AM

Torture is a traditional way to obtain information from willing or reluctant people that have information that is valuable. It isn't the only way to get information. But if faster methods are better and the practice is tolerated or condoned, well I don't have to amplify the reasons or list them, the point is moot..
Criminals that are uncooperative, and are protecting vital information, will most certainly come dangerously close to recieving some kind of duress or torture until the accused reveals the extent of his knowlege. I don't like it, but I know it used to happen all the time. It actually got some New York policemen and detectives in some serious trouble a few years ago, but his victem was just an example, I found that whole thing repugnant.
And I find the practice by Saddams secret police equally repugnant.
But some more points..
Everyone does it, whether it is accepted or not..
North and South Vietnamese military and secret police conducted routine forms of torture merely to obtain control over hostile indiginous people..
I have witnessed bound men forced to provide information, under threat of more pain, until they broke...
and that was in training..
Would I look the other way if I knew that was going to occur to a captured enemy soldier, I never allowed myself to become personally involved with that matter..
If I was captured would I expect to be tortured, hell yes, I know my breaking point, everyone has one you know.
I would probably fight to the death, there is honor there, and that is why I admire the courage of the IRAQI soldier, against all odds, he will fight like an animal to complete his mission, he knows if he fails his family might be killed or tortured, or he as well.
Torture is another terrible aspect of war, whether it may be on the city streets of an city in the world.
or on the battlefield.
I know this might anger some, but sometimes it's necessary, to save the lives of your unit...or innocent law abiding citizens, I just wouldn't do it myself, nor participate in it.

merry · Mar 28, 2003, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fallang_jeff
I know this might anger some, but sometimes it's necessary, to save the lives of your unit...or innocent law abiding citizens, I just wouldn't do it myself, nor participate in it.

Do you think that a regime that approves torture - only when it's necessary, just sometimes, and for the good cause - may still pose as "the good guys"? I mean, if one does it because everybody else does it, what makes one special?

Falstaff · Mar 28, 2003, 01:41 PM

Torture is terrible, and transforms the lives of the tortured and torturer, and those that look the other way....but I know, it's terrible, but I will say again and risk agitation, but it is done, by any standard that you want to use, It is a successful method, and in most countries they do it, and train their elite forces to endure it or implement it. I know it sounds unfair and terrible..

raid517 · Mar 28, 2003, 06:42 PM

Well for me I can't see how it can be justified. I thought we were supposed to be better than that, I thought that's why we were supposed to be fighting these people. What moral code distinguishes us from them if we indulge in the same behaviour?

However this is not the question I asked, war crimes are another issue - and rather interestingly are why America refuses to sign up to an international criminal court. What I asked though was should torture be sanctioned by the state as a practice outside the theatre of war? What these people are talking about is 'legalising' state sanctioned torture with America's domestic borders.

So pretty much if this were the case, you would have a country that regularly executes its undesirables, imprisons political prisoners without charge and uses torture as a means of extracting information about its enemies. Isn't this the exact definition of a rogue state? Isn't this the kind of country America says she is interested in fighting wars against?

Can anybody seriously say that you believe actions like these are justified?

Q

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 28, 2003, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fallang_jeff
Torture is terrible, and transforms the lives of the tortured and torturer, and those that look the other way....but I know, it's terrible, but I will say again and risk agitation, but it is done, by any standard that you want to use, It is a successful method, and in most countries they do it, and train their elite forces to endure it or implement it. I know it sounds unfair and terrible..

All countires use it......well Jeff you are wrong....all uncivilised countrys are using it.

The use of torture is probably against your constitution and the fact that leading politicians openly discuss the possibility of using it shows as also is the case with the Patriot act the total lack of respect for basic human values that actually places them on the Same level as the Green guy himself.

If on top of it they would actually write a law that allows for "certain" levels of torture to be used then the evil...is institutionalised...and that is far worse than it being used secretly.

That means that the cancer is spreding unstoppable Ã*n the body of your nation.

I hope i will never see that day.

Bluelight

Falstaff · Mar 29, 2003, 04:32 AM

I am sorry I couldn't further amplify my statements but indeed civilized nations do it, have done it, condone it, and ignore the practice of it, to obtain informaiton, to gain power, to render enemies mute, and coerce confessions. America is equally responsible for it's actions as all other nations. But I guess there is some confusion here. I am not talking about the those that must function within the scope of the law, the constitution and the Geneva convention. I am talking about those agencies or instruments of power, that must function above or below the framework of democracy...I don't use the term good guys or bad guys...I am much more realistic than that. I don't condone it either, and find the practice repugnant, but it exists nonetheless. Torture is evil, and reveals the inner beast within us, if I might be allowed to wax philosphically. We condemn Hussein for eliminating his enemies and keeping control with these methods, but we have many skeletons in our closet as well..

Falstaff · Mar 29, 2003, 04:40 AM

I am sorry I forgot this url....my daughter used it for a term paper, I found it very interesting..http://www.woatusa.org/CAT/catreport/intro.html.

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 29, 2003, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fallang_jeff
I am sorry I couldn't further amplify my statements but indeed civilized nations do it, have done it, condone it, and ignore the practice of it, to obtain informaiton, to gain power, to render enemies mute, and coerce confessions. America is equally responsible for it's actions as all other nations. But I guess there is some confusion here. I am not talking about the those that must function within the scope of the law, the constitution and the Geneva convention. I am talking about those agencies or instruments of power, that must function above or below the framework of democracy...I don't use the term good guys or bad guys...I am much more realistic than that. I don't condone it either, and find the practice repugnant, but it exists nonetheless. Torture is evil, and reveals the inner beast within us, if I might be allowed to wax philosphically. We condemn Hussein for eliminating his enemies and keeping control with these methods, but we have many skeletons in our closet as well..

As i see it..............any nation...including Usa (if this is applicable to Usa) that has institutiuons that function above the framework above the law are not neither democracies or civilised and should by any right be fought.

If on top of that a nation "rises" these illegal activities to be law the such a nation has no right to exists far as im concerned.

All of these aspects are regulated in international treaties.Some of them made by the UN.

They are very easy to follow since gthey are based on simple humanistic (and maybe also christian ,muslim,Buddist etc etc values shared by all) principles.

Bluey

Falstaff · Mar 29, 2003, 01:05 PM

"Most of the world today is governed by Caesars. Men and more and more treated as things. Torture is ubiquitous. And, as Sartre wrote in his preface to Henri Alleg's chilling book about Algeria, 'Anyone, at any time, may equally find himself victim or executioner.' Suetonius, in holding up a mirror to those Caesars of diverting legend, reflects not only them but ourselves: half-tempted creatures, whose great moral task it is to hold in balance the angel and the monster within - for we are both, and to ignore this duality is to invite disaster."-Gore Vidal

"Let the worms crawl out of he mud" - Claudius (Robert Graves book, "I Claudius")

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 29, 2003, 02:19 PM

Much as i admire thinkers as Sartre they hardly meant....that torture was something that was supposed to be accepted...neither accepted by law or by not applying already existing laws.

What he is talking about is thge mechanisms that allow people to become torturers.

A system that allows and enthusiast torture.(hidden or not) is sick and needs curing.

If this becomes a "normal"accepted part in American intelligence ,military and police then im through with Usa until its peole have thrown out the animals that introduces this as normal accepted behaviour and Usa will be worth just as little respect as Hitlers germany Stalins Russia or Mao Tse Tungs China or Milosecics Serbia.

In Haag Milosevic is today sitting for crimes like these.

If you have right wing extremists (im soon to call them fascists if they continue this path) that talk in favour of this...then it is any sane persons obligation to speak up against them.

Mr Don......isnt he claiming he is Christian...?And yet he know nothinhg about Jesus Christ?

Well....

Thats about it.

Falstaff · Mar 29, 2003, 04:43 PM

Like all christians that are pious and faithful, he must still confront the real enemy, his inner self, and deal with the contradictions that all people must whether they are christian or not..."like the duality of man", at his age and with his accomplishments and his curriculem vitae, I am sure he thinks he is doing what god planned for him to do, but then I am dangerously close to "thinking like him", ha ha

~~Optimummind~~ · Mar 29, 2003, 05:39 PM

Torturing terrorists like the kind that bombed the WTC is totally justifiable in my book. People are so damn stubborn. Sometimes, force is the only option.

Even though you anti-torture people talk big, if your family members were killed by senseless terror attacks, you would want harsh treatment for them. If someone were to kill/rape my family and friends, I wouldn't share a single tear seeing those people becoming mutilated/maimed/killed/tortured. Most people who say otherwise are just hypocrites.

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 29, 2003, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Optimummind
Torturing terrorists like the kind that bombed the WTC is totally justifiable in my book. People are so damn stubborn. Sometimes, force is the only option.

Im sorry....but...promoting torture in any form....is despisable in my book.Anyone claiming he is working against evil as personified by Saddam using them same evil...is himself evil.

Nothing else...Plain evil.

War is one thing........Torture is another.....Torture is the lowest level f human behaviour.

It is internationally condemmed by all major organisations.There are agreements written and signed by all democratic nations that forbids it.

So if Rumsfeld says...torture is ok...Then he will not even be MR Don...the happy guy who gets to sell guns to Saddam to me...he will be transformed to the devil himself and he will play in the same league as Milosevic in Haag.

Bluelight

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 29, 2003, 08:00 PM

Raid....is this quote from this Alan Dershowitz ?? darling of the conservative right - and Rumsfeld and company's ideological and intellectual Guru.

If that is so...and Mr Don listens to him...that means the government of USA listens to him......

IF so i think they all need mental care.That is plain obvious.

Have you got a link to this article??

Source: Time Magazine.

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IF AMERICAN law enforcement officers were ever to confront the law school hypothetical case of the captured terrorist who knew about an imminent attack but refused to provide the information necessary to prevent it, I have absolutely no doubt that they would try to torture the terrorists into providing the information.

"Moreover, the vast majority of Americans would expect the officers to engage in that time-tested technique for loosening tongues, notwithstanding our unequivocal treaty obligation never to employ torture, no matter how exigent the circumstances. The real question is not whether torture would be used ... it would ... but whether it would be used outside of the law or within the law."

"In my new book, "Shouting Fire: Civil Liberties in a Turbulent Age,'' I offer a controversial proposal designed to stimulate debate about this difficult issue. Under my proposal, no torture would be permitted without a "torture warrant'' being issued by a judge."

"An application for a torture warrant would have to be based on the absolute need to obtain immediate information in order to save lives coupled with probable cause that the suspect had such information and is unwilling to reveal it."

"The suspect would be given immunity from prosecution based on information elicited by the torture. The warrant would limit the torture to nonlethal means, such as sterile needles, being inserted beneath the nails to cause excruciating pain without endangering life."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source: Alan Dershowitz ,
darling of the conservative right - and Rumsfeld and company's ideological and intellectual Guru.

Falstaff · Mar 30, 2003, 04:15 AM

I read it too, and I know for a fact it occurs...occured and will continue...it's terrible....

~~Optimummind~~ · Mar 30, 2003, 08:14 AM

Let's say some guy you captured know when and where your family is going to be killed. And let's suppose you tried all kinds of techniques except torture to extract that information which could save your family's life and he's still not talking. If you knew tortoring him could give you that crucial information, then wouldn't you use it? If you say no, you either don't love your family (or, they don't love you and that's why you wouldn't try your best) or you're full of ideological crap.

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 30, 2003, 08:36 AM

How old are you??What do you know about torture??!!

If you support the use of torture...do so.I will continue to consider anyone in favour of it as evil.Meaning..you support torture..then to me you have an evil and corrupt mind.

(No this is not a flame)

The minute it is in anyway official that your nation supports torture in any way...hiddden or officially
that very moment all the little Hitlers in the world will take that as a signal to continue torturing their prisoners.

One day they will also torture proisoners they take from your nation.....but at that moment i figure....you will be against torture...or how is it ????Will it be ok in a future for ..say..North Korea to torture any captured americans?? No i thought not...so get your act togheter and do some thinking.....

Do you promote double standards when it comes to torture??

Do you have this idea of Usa using ...a little torture....while it is forbidden for the little Hitlers??

And do you think that is an idea that works??

Bluelight

~~Optimummind~~ · Mar 30, 2003, 04:12 PM

Before you continue rambling, why don't you answer my question first, pussy

raid517 · Mar 30, 2003, 04:40 PM

As I said previously, do you really want to live in a country that regularly imprisons people without charge, executes its undesirables, suppresses the freedoms of it's citizens and their rights to freedom of speech and association through this so called 'patriot act' - and now is contemplating 'legalising' torture as a means of extracting information from its opponents... Isn't that to be the kind of country you are supposed to be fighting against? Why are you so happy for your country to be turned into everything you claim to despise?

I agree with blue, torture is evil - and state sanctioned torture is the most evil of all. The fact that most civilised countries don't do it is all that separates us from the evil regimes we claim to be struggling against. If the US wishes to walk this path, where she seeks to withdraw from all established standards of accepted civilised behaviour, and indulges in practices such as imprisonment without charge, execution of undesirables, suppression of free speech and rights of association, torture of its enemies, withdrawing from international treaties, such as, Kyoto, the international test ban treaty, the international treaty on the rights of the child, the international criminal court, the UN, Nato - and lord knows how many other organisations and treaties this government has sought to trash then it should be no surprise if America is seen by the rest of the world to be walking a very lonely path.

Oh and BTW Optimummind calling people a 'pussy', or using other derogatory terms isn't permitted round these parts. But I'm sure TC will have something to say about that.

Q

raid517 · Mar 30, 2003, 04:46 PM

Oh and BTW blue, if you want more info on these proposals, just do a search on this guys name. I think you will find that he and Rumsfeld and crew all make pretty close bedfellows. I cannot understand why these guys admire these people. This is evilness pure and simple.

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 30, 2003, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Optimummind
Before you continue rambling, why don't you answer my question first, pussy

Oh....!! Another one that doesnt plan to stay here.....Or is it one of the old ones in new shiny clothes....

Whichever....

If you manage to stay on these boards then keep you bollocks to the flame zone where nobody has to bother with you...

Right?

Bluelight

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 30, 2003, 05:04 PM

And.....Ramblings.....Pussy.....

Well i have it perfectly clear to me what you are........No doubt about that.

Perfectly......

Since i have the intention of staying here i will not tell you. about it.It is well enough that i know what you are myself.

No matter if you manage to stay here or not i will continue to look upon you this way.

Bluelight

Falstaff · Mar 30, 2003, 08:01 PM

Is this fellow referring to a vaginal oriface, a reproductive organ of the female body, the common term for a feline, or perhaps some playground, teeter toter type vernaculer is coming ouit.....sounds like unrequited feelings of rejection? this may be an oppurtunity for closure for Opti....

~~ByteMe~~ · Mar 31, 2003, 04:25 AM

Where do I sign up?

WyreTheWolf · Mar 31, 2003, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Optimummind
Before you continue rambling, why don't you answer my question first, pussy

PUBLIC WARNING:

Another perfect example of a direct attack on a single user.

This is not allowed, you have been warned... If you wish to stay a part of this forum, you need to go back, and reread the rules.

~~ByteMe~~ · Mar 31, 2003, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WyreTheWolf
PUBLIC WARNING:

Another perfect example of a direct attack on a single user.

This is not allowed, you have been warned... If you wish to stay a part of this forum, you need to go back, and reread the rules.

Don't worry people, I reported this blazen abuse of power.

Falstaff · Mar 31, 2003, 05:37 AM

Byteme's gonna get it, Byteme's gonna get it...ha ha.

Mar 28, 2003, 04:12 AM	#2
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Justified, wellllll It might be more useful to place things into perspective, assuming one new all the circumstances for using torture, regardless of definition. Because we possess the medical skills to introduce a drug or drugs in a sort of truth serum cocktail, to extract what we need from someone. Torture is used now of the battlefield to obtain foxhole confessions, from the barrel of a gun, you might actually get whatever you need to know from almost anyone, with threats, and there are more subtle forms of torture, I am not sure what the purpose of torture would be unless to meet the immediate needs of law enforcement to save lives to render explosives inert, to rescue hostages, etc...The military explaination is the simplest... __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Mar 28, 2003, 06:51 AM	#4
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	I am familiar with this Torture is a traditional way to obtain information from willing or reluctant people that have information that is valuable. It isn't the only way to get information. But if faster methods are better and the practice is tolerated or condoned, well I don't have to amplify the reasons or list them, the point is moot.. Criminals that are uncooperative, and are protecting vital information, will most certainly come dangerously close to recieving some kind of duress or torture until the accused reveals the extent of his knowlege. I don't like it, but I know it used to happen all the time. It actually got some New York policemen and detectives in some serious trouble a few years ago, but his victem was just an example, I found that whole thing repugnant. And I find the practice by Saddams secret police equally repugnant. But some more points.. Everyone does it, whether it is accepted or not.. North and South Vietnamese military and secret police conducted routine forms of torture merely to obtain control over hostile indiginous people.. I have witnessed bound men forced to provide information, under threat of more pain, until they broke... and that was in training.. Would I look the other way if I knew that was going to occur to a captured enemy soldier, I never allowed myself to become personally involved with that matter.. If I was captured would I expect to be tortured, hell yes, I know my breaking point, everyone has one you know. I would probably fight to the death, there is honor there, and that is why I admire the courage of the IRAQI soldier, against all odds, he will fight like an animal to complete his mission, he knows if he fails his family might be killed or tortured, or he as well. Torture is another terrible aspect of war, whether it may be on the city streets of an city in the world. or on the battlefield. I know this might anger some, but sometimes it's necessary, to save the lives of your unit...or innocent law abiding citizens, I just wouldn't do it myself, nor participate in it.

Mar 28, 2003, 01:41 PM	#6
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	I don't disagree Torture is terrible, and transforms the lives of the tortured and torturer, and those that look the other way....but I know, it's terrible, but I will say again and risk agitation, but it is done, by any standard that you want to use, It is a successful method, and in most countries they do it, and train their elite forces to endure it or implement it. I know it sounds unfair and terrible.. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Mar 28, 2003, 06:42 PM	Thread Starter #7
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Well for me I can't see how it can be justified. I thought we were supposed to be better than that, I thought that's why we were supposed to be fighting these people. What moral code distinguishes us from them if we indulge in the same behaviour? However this is not the question I asked, war crimes are another issue - and rather interestingly are why America refuses to sign up to an international criminal court. What I asked though was should torture be sanctioned by the state as a practice outside the theatre of war? What these people are talking about is 'legalising' state sanctioned torture with America's domestic borders. So pretty much if this were the case, you would have a country that regularly executes its undesirables, imprisons political prisoners without charge and uses torture as a means of extracting information about its enemies. Isn't this the exact definition of a rogue state? Isn't this the kind of country America says she is interested in fighting wars against? Can anybody seriously say that you believe actions like these are justified? Q Last edited by raid517; Mar 28, 2003 at 07:57 PM.

Mar 29, 2003, 04:32 AM	#9
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Bluelight I am sorry I couldn't further amplify my statements but indeed civilized nations do it, have done it, condone it, and ignore the practice of it, to obtain informaiton, to gain power, to render enemies mute, and coerce confessions. America is equally responsible for it's actions as all other nations. But I guess there is some confusion here. I am not talking about the those that must function within the scope of the law, the constitution and the Geneva convention. I am talking about those agencies or instruments of power, that must function above or below the framework of democracy...I don't use the term good guys or bad guys...I am much more realistic than that. I don't condone it either, and find the practice repugnant, but it exists nonetheless. Torture is evil, and reveals the inner beast within us, if I might be allowed to wax philosphically. We condemn Hussein for eliminating his enemies and keeping control with these methods, but we have many skeletons in our closet as well.. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Mar 28, 2003, 05:49 AM	Thread Starter #3
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	No Jeff were not talking about battlefield 'heat of the moment' stuff, were talking about cold calculated premeditated and state sanctioned torture. This guy wants to introduce torture warrants that can be 'legally' obtained from a judge, in order to extract information from a terrorist subject. The military perspective may be simpler, but its no less brutal. We all know the military would use torture if they were allowed to. Indeed it is already a time honoured American practice, as I' sure you will discover here. I would suggest reading number 8 here as a good starting point to understand that people who were there actually witnessed these things. Personally I would say that there is never an excuse for torture, not the kind of torture that these people are talking about anyway. (They try to pretty it up by calling it 'non lethal torture, which essentially means electric shocks, inserting sterile needles under people's fingernails, performing dental surgery without anaesthetics, etc, all of which these people have advocated). What I would like to know is if you indulge in acts of state sanctioned torture, what separates you from the people you are suppose to be fighting? What exactly is it that makes you any better than them? Q

Mar 29, 2003, 04:40 AM	#10
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	bluey I am sorry I forgot this url....my daughter used it for a term paper, I found it very interesting..http://www.woatusa.org/CAT/catreport/intro.html. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Mar 29, 2003, 01:05 PM	#12
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	PAX AMERICANA "Most of the world today is governed by Caesars. Men and more and more treated as things. Torture is ubiquitous. And, as Sartre wrote in his preface to Henri Alleg's chilling book about Algeria, 'Anyone, at any time, may equally find himself victim or executioner.' Suetonius, in holding up a mirror to those Caesars of diverting legend, reflects not only them but ourselves: half-tempted creatures, whose great moral task it is to hold in balance the angel and the monster within - for we are both, and to ignore this duality is to invite disaster."-Gore Vidal "Let the worms crawl out of he mud" - Claudius (Robert Graves book, "I Claudius")

Mar 29, 2003, 02:19 PM	#13
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Much as i admire thinkers as Sartre they hardly meant....that torture was something that was supposed to be accepted...neither accepted by law or by not applying already existing laws. What he is talking about is thge mechanisms that allow people to become torturers. A system that allows and enthusiast torture.(hidden or not) is sick and needs curing. If this becomes a "normal"accepted part in American intelligence ,military and police then im through with Usa until its peole have thrown out the animals that introduces this as normal accepted behaviour and Usa will be worth just as little respect as Hitlers germany Stalins Russia or Mao Tse Tungs China or Milosecics Serbia. In Haag Milosevic is today sitting for crimes like these. If you have right wing extremists (im soon to call them fascists if they continue this path) that talk in favour of this...then it is any sane persons obligation to speak up against them. Mr Don......isnt he claiming he is Christian...?And yet he know nothinhg about Jesus Christ? Well.... Thats about it.

Mar 29, 2003, 04:43 PM	#14
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	I think he embraces his faith but.... Like all christians that are pious and faithful, he must still confront the real enemy, his inner self, and deal with the contradictions that all people must whether they are christian or not..."like the duality of man", at his age and with his accomplishments and his curriculem vitae, I am sure he thinks he is doing what god planned for him to do, but then I am dangerously close to "thinking like him", ha ha __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Mar 29, 2003, 05:39 PM	#15
~~Optimummind~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Orange, California Posts: 632 Rep Power: 0	Torturing terrorists like the kind that bombed the WTC is totally justifiable in my book. People are so damn stubborn. Sometimes, force is the only option. Even though you anti-torture people talk big, if your family members were killed by senseless terror attacks, you would want harsh treatment for them. If someone were to kill/rape my family and friends, I wouldn't share a single tear seeing those people becoming mutilated/maimed/killed/tortured. Most people who say otherwise are just hypocrites.

Mar 29, 2003, 08:00 PM	#17
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Raid....is this quote from this Alan Dershowitz ?? darling of the conservative right - and Rumsfeld and company's ideological and intellectual Guru. If that is so...and Mr Don listens to him...that means the government of USA listens to him...... IF so i think they all need mental care.That is plain obvious. Have you got a link to this article?? Source: Time Magazine. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IF AMERICAN law enforcement officers were ever to confront the law school hypothetical case of the captured terrorist who knew about an imminent attack but refused to provide the information necessary to prevent it, I have absolutely no doubt that they would try to torture the terrorists into providing the information. "Moreover, the vast majority of Americans would expect the officers to engage in that time-tested technique for loosening tongues, notwithstanding our unequivocal treaty obligation never to employ torture, no matter how exigent the circumstances. The real question is not whether torture would be used ... it would ... but whether it would be used outside of the law or within the law." "In my new book, "Shouting Fire: Civil Liberties in a Turbulent Age,'' I offer a controversial proposal designed to stimulate debate about this difficult issue. Under my proposal, no torture would be permitted without a "torture warrant'' being issued by a judge." "An application for a torture warrant would have to be based on the absolute need to obtain immediate information in order to save lives coupled with probable cause that the suspect had such information and is unwilling to reveal it." "The suspect would be given immunity from prosecution based on information elicited by the torture. The warrant would limit the torture to nonlethal means, such as sterile needles, being inserted beneath the nails to cause excruciating pain without endangering life." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Source: Alan Dershowitz , darling of the conservative right - and Rumsfeld and company's ideological and intellectual Guru.

Mar 30, 2003, 04:15 AM	#18
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	yep I read it too, and I know for a fact it occurs...occured and will continue...it's terrible.... __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Mar 30, 2003, 08:14 AM	#19
~~Optimummind~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Orange, California Posts: 632 Rep Power: 0	Let's say some guy you captured know when and where your family is going to be killed. And let's suppose you tried all kinds of techniques except torture to extract that information which could save your family's life and he's still not talking. If you knew tortoring him could give you that crucial information, then wouldn't you use it? If you say no, you either don't love your family (or, they don't love you and that's why you wouldn't try your best) or you're full of ideological crap.

Mar 30, 2003, 08:36 AM	#20
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	How old are you??What do you know about torture??!! If you support the use of torture...do so.I will continue to consider anyone in favour of it as evil.Meaning..you support torture..then to me you have an evil and corrupt mind. (No this is not a flame) The minute it is in anyway official that your nation supports torture in any way...hiddden or officially that very moment all the little Hitlers in the world will take that as a signal to continue torturing their prisoners. One day they will also torture proisoners they take from your nation.....but at that moment i figure....you will be against torture...or how is it ????Will it be ok in a future for ..say..North Korea to torture any captured americans?? No i thought not...so get your act togheter and do some thinking..... Do you promote double standards when it comes to torture?? Do you have this idea of Usa using ...a little torture....while it is forbidden for the little Hitlers?? And do you think that is an idea that works?? Bluelight

Mar 30, 2003, 04:12 PM	#21
~~Optimummind~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Orange, California Posts: 632 Rep Power: 0	Before you continue rambling, why don't you answer my question first, pussy

Mar 30, 2003, 04:40 PM	Thread Starter #22
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	As I said previously, do you really want to live in a country that regularly imprisons people without charge, executes its undesirables, suppresses the freedoms of it's citizens and their rights to freedom of speech and association through this so called 'patriot act' - and now is contemplating 'legalising' torture as a means of extracting information from its opponents... Isn't that to be the kind of country you are supposed to be fighting against? Why are you so happy for your country to be turned into everything you claim to despise? I agree with blue, torture is evil - and state sanctioned torture is the most evil of all. The fact that most civilised countries don't do it is all that separates us from the evil regimes we claim to be struggling against. If the US wishes to walk this path, where she seeks to withdraw from all established standards of accepted civilised behaviour, and indulges in practices such as imprisonment without charge, execution of undesirables, suppression of free speech and rights of association, torture of its enemies, withdrawing from international treaties, such as, Kyoto, the international test ban treaty, the international treaty on the rights of the child, the international criminal court, the UN, Nato - and lord knows how many other organisations and treaties this government has sought to trash then it should be no surprise if America is seen by the rest of the world to be walking a very lonely path. Oh and BTW Optimummind calling people a 'pussy', or using other derogatory terms isn't permitted round these parts. But I'm sure TC will have something to say about that. Q

Mar 30, 2003, 04:46 PM	Thread Starter #23
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Oh and BTW blue, if you want more info on these proposals, just do a search on this guys name. I think you will find that he and Rumsfeld and crew all make pretty close bedfellows. I cannot understand why these guys admire these people. This is evilness pure and simple.

Mar 30, 2003, 05:04 PM	#25
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	And.....Ramblings.....Pussy..... Well i have it perfectly clear to me what you are........No doubt about that. Perfectly...... Since i have the intention of staying here i will not tell you. about it.It is well enough that i know what you are myself. No matter if you manage to stay here or not i will continue to look upon you this way. Bluelight

Mar 30, 2003, 08:01 PM	#26
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Hey Bluelight Is this fellow referring to a vaginal oriface, a reproductive organ of the female body, the common term for a feline, or perhaps some playground, teeter toter type vernaculer is coming ouit.....sounds like unrequited feelings of rejection? this may be an oppurtunity for closure for Opti.... __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Mar 31, 2003, 04:25 AM	#27
~~ByteMe~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 761 Rep Power: 0	Where do I sign up?

Mar 31, 2003, 05:37 AM	#30
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Gee willikers Byteme's gonna get it, Byteme's gonna get it...ha ha. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."