Falstaff

I woke up today, and knew that I was just tired of the whole war in IRAQ, tired of fighting the peace, tired of seeing good kids that I trained two years ago come back with stories and memories that they cant repeat and wounds that wont heal, Just fucking tired of the struggle that goes on daily between a regime in IRAQ that cant manage their own country, and the blood of brothers and sisters spilling and mixing with the blood of innocents on the streets of IRAQ.
I was touched by my ex-son-in-law and his struggle to describe the brutal instruments of war used to sweep human life regardless of age, sex and nationality off the face of the earth. Just cant get my mind around the thought of ever losing my brother who is on his third tour as an intelligence analyst at a different FOB everyday. Hearing mortors and RPG's land outside his tent. Seeing the faces of the people squeezed in the meat grinder, and the press that deliberately spread two messages everynight on television and the internet. What the hell happened to freedom...what the fuck happened to world now...where people launch missles into populated areas with their IPODS playing Briteny Spears in their cheap ass headphones, and lazers paint targets on building with women and children huddled behind walls that we penetrate with 120 mm cannon shells.
Which God is the right God to worship, which God tells us that mercy and kindness and respect and love is the center of our lives, our faith and our search for peace. Which God tells us to kill to destroy people of other faith. Which God makes us push the button, and prepare for the last battle the world will ever fight. Where the hell is sanctuary for people who dodge tanks, helicopters and landmines, children that smell the burning flesh, fuel and watch us all reap the whirlwind...what of them..
Have we mortgage our future already?
Where in the hell is the America that I grew up in, where is the world I watched on televison, the world I grew up in?
My own son tells me with regret he didnt want to go to join the Marines, or Army or Navy or Airforce..."when they envade America, that is when I will fight Dad" he said to me so long ago....
this morning I was grateful for that, grateful he is just working some shitty little job and making enough to keep his girlfriend and he alive every payday..
Then I wont have to watch him die on televsion like so many other mothers and fathers everyday...
God bless us all...we are going to need all the help we can get.
For all of you that can make a difference soon...
It isnt too early to decide who you are going to vote for...just dont forget to vote..

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Lelisevis

Which America? The one with The first world war, the second world war, The Korean War, The Vietnam War, The Cold War, Desert Storm, The Afghan War, The war against terror, Iraqi Freedom.......hell we haven't even finished that one and we are deciding what to destroy next. I say we as in the context of humans as a race for Britains history looks no cleaner.

What are we but monkeys that have advanced beyond hitting each other with sticks and tearing other monkey troops apart with our hands.


It's funny how now things arent going our way and beneath the pile of shit wasnt a shiny gold coin our governments are all talking about pulling out. It's true when the going gets tough the tough get going, in this case we are going, going with our tails between our legs. Now we've upset the beehive and realised even the honeys not worth the stings we are just going to stand back and hope they can rebuild it. Trouble is it's rare that a bee will hold a grudge and come looking for you.


Whats the answer? I don't have a clue. All I know is that we are a dirty little stain on this planet and we'll keep on taking till nothing is left, no matter what the cost or who we destroy in the end. We are a race governed by greed.

Dowaco

I guess the terrorists win.

I voted three: there have always been wars.

Wars are always unpopular once the reason for entering into one has faded into history, (which, in today's please-me-now society is like 6 months). The US has used its military power all over the globe and will continue to do so no matter who is president. Frankly, no one could get elected president if it was thought they would be afraid to commit troops.

The Iraq war is costing less than 1% of the GNP compared to 14% for Vietnam and 9% for the Korean war. Heck, its not even a real war. There is no economic hardship at home. Casualties from the start of the conflict to today are light. 3,200 volunteers in Iraq, compared to drafted 55,000 in Korea, 58,000 in Vietnam, 407,000 in WWII. so its not the staggering death toll that has people fed up. Although you would never know it the way the press plays up each individual death.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It will not matter who is president 21 months from now. The policies now begun must run their course. If the troops come home in three, five or seven years, then whoever is president will claim they kept their promise. There is no way a new president will recall all troops in a matter of a few months regardless of what they say to get your vote.

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The above is my opinion and in no way reflects the views of this website.

OmegaRED

When the war in Iraq ends another will begin. Americans don't want to know the truth about why they start unnecessary wars and won't make the sacrifices needed to win a prolonged war.

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Lelisevis

I agree totally. For those who fight fullcontact you'll know that as long as your punching out at others you can ignore the damage to yourself, I think it's about time America (and most countries to be honest) stopped concentrating on the wider world and turned it's attention to it's own wounds. Stop the homelessness, the starvation, the stagnant economy.

I watched Red nose day on TV the other night and was sick to the stomach, by the end of the night they'd raised a piffling £24m to combat starvation and suffering, I flicked over to News24 and saw plans for a £4 billion pound hotel and gambling complex.

Greed, extravagance and hatred. The pinnacle of this planets evolution.

Falstaff

just so tired of this, so many good kids dead or maimed, returning home to crappy medical care, and a crappy system to assist them to civilian life.

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cozumel

I'm part of that crappy system. I have approx 400 client appts every quarter (incl repeat appts) by about 120 individual clients. One third of those (about 40) are veterans and another 15 are refugees who were traumatised by witnessing extreme violence and/or have been victims of torture.

I fully support the troops and their families and admire their bravery and courage. I hate with a passion the politicians who send them to kill and to be killed, injured and irreperably damaged. (So I voted option 4)

Physical injuries can heal quickly, but psychological damage can take far longer . Example of damage: 99 US military personel committed suicide in Iraq since the invasion in 2003. A study of troops returning from the Iraq war, published by the American Journal of Psychiatry, showed that 16 percent of them met the criteria for post-traumatic stress disorder within one year of returning home. The disorder has been defined as a lingering anxiety or depression triggered by past extreme traumatic events, such as serving in combat.

The symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder can last for many years. Families and lives are destroyed by the ripples spreading out from the veteran leading to divorce, suicide, homocide, alcohol or substance misuse, other criminal activity and prison. This list is not exhaustive.

The US miltary is launching a website in July 2007 for any servicemember struggling with PTSD. Read here for more information.

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cozumel

Apologies for inaccuracy in previous post which has now been edited.

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Matth

Winning the peace is harder than winning the war, the place has all the makings of the "troubles" of Northern Ireland, or perhaps closer to the balkans - opposing groups united only by a brutal dictator.

The first Gulf war should have ended only with Saddam's trial and execution for war crimes, then there would have been no need for the second one based on nonexistent WMD and dodgy dossiers.

I'd say America was just seeking someone to answer for 9/11.

Anyway, we made this mess, now we are responsible for nurturing the Iraqui democracy until it can stand against enemies both outside and within.

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Mary had a little lamb,
Her father shot it dead
Now Mary takes her lamb to school,
Between two crusts of bread

SFOSOK

my bud just came back from basic. He got kicked out 11 weeks in because he hurt his back and his parents sent in some psyc background.


He told me he saw 2 people die in basic, 1 blew his brains out right next to him at the rifle range and the other jumped off a building he was about to go into.

Its kinda got me thinkin bout the military and war. I can't make a decision though for this poll.

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*Warning* - Explicit Content Preceeding



METAL!!

Vikingod

Lets face it, tha War is a freaking decable. Its probably the most poorly devised, authorized, and executed military action in the last 600 years. The whole thing is directly in the face of the constitution, and those key figures involved should probably be hung for treason. It has done irreparable harm to the image of the United States, and has squandered vast resources that were, and still are, need elsewhere in our depressed economy. Thats not even to mention the harm it has done to the image to those within the country who no longer trust their own government. (I'll save the rest of my thoughts for the book )

That said...

I honestly think that if we pull out now, without really cleaning up the mess we started, things will be much, much worse. Whether that means sending in additional troops, or throwing tons of money into training and supplying allied troops (which has a history of backfiring. read: Osama Bin Laden), I can't say. My gut tells me the right thing to do, is just as the "terrorist" don't want us to do. Set up hospitals, schools, business, and colleges. If we do it, that means they can't, and we win the heart of the people by feeding and educating them (Just like Hamas did in the south). Its honestly a route we should have done before we decided to blow everything up. I certainly won't pretend to have the answers, but I know the current direction is a huge mistake, and the idea that one can "export" democracy is really in the face of the idea of democracy. This war is just about the best example of that as I can think.

Dowaco

So you are not counting Jimmy Carter's botched attempt to free the Iran Hostages or George Custer's incursion into Indian territory...

So hang the 3/4 of the Senate who voted 77-23 to authorize invasion.
This was done by the book. The president has the power to send troops anywhere without approval. The fact that he got it anyway says that most people wanted this war.

The ecomomy is not depressed, far from it. Those "vast resources" are a drop in the bucket (<1% of the GNP).
I don't give a rats ass about our image. What do you care if some guy in Paris or Copenhagen thinks about us? They think we are a bunch of uncultured, prudish cowboys anyway.

Who exactly is in that catagory? Anyone who trusts the government deserves what they get. Politicians come somewhere below used car salesmen and real estate agents in the trust factor.

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The above is my opinion and in no way reflects the views of this website.

Sandok

If you'd travel a bit, then you might see differently. Image is important, because if 6 billion people hate you, well that's not going to make your life or the relations with the world much easier is it?

This war imho, now is beyond repair. Leave and you'll look as if you're fleeing from a mess you can't fix.

Stay and you'll seem like you can't fix your own mess. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

cozumel

I'm not going to get involved in the Dowaco/Sandok argument.

Regardless of whether US action is correct or not, the point of this thread is to debate whether the current rate of [Iraqi, US & allied) casualties are worth the price. The currency being quality of life for the average Iraqi citizen and number of casualties, including PTSD, of military personel and their families.

If the stated point of invasion and regime change was to improve the lives of the average Iraqi then we must ask how many total maximum casualties (of all nationalities) is a fair price?
The most conservative estimates of all fatalies stand at over 60,000. Many more have been injured physically or psychologically (most estimates are in the 100s of thousands). Before the war, Shias & Kurds were constantly at threat of imprisonment, torture and death at the hands of Saddam and his regime but everyone knew who you could or could not trust. Now there is a total lack of trust between neighbors: no-one know who is a friend and who is a foe. There is total breakdown in law and order, and society in general has broken down.

Conclusion:
I do not think things have improved at all. I do not think that regime change has made Iraq a better place for the people who live there or that the surrounding area is more stable. I do not think the world is safer place or that the risk of global terrorism has been reduced.

Therefore the war has not been, is not currently and will not be worth the sacrifice. The war should stop now and all foreign forces should be withdrawn immediately.

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Vikingod

Carters mistakes didn't drag on for 4 years adn kill 2000 American soldiers. Custers actions, while I certainly don't condone them (My Grandfather was 100% Hunkpapa Lakota, I think the man was possible the antichrist), was very successful in taking territory from the Native American's.

I was not commenting on the fact that the senate voted to approve the invasion, I was commenting on the false information the executive branch proposed as facts knowing the information wasn't true. This information was the basis for the invasion. The fact that the senate didn't ask any freakin questions as to the validity of the allegations, when for TEN YEARS, the intelegence community denied the existance of WMD in Iraq just might be cause for concern.

First off, comparing it to the GDP makes absolutely no sense. For a better understanding of that, go to www.bea.gov. Makes much more sense in comparing it to total taxes collected, which the military consumes 31% (for 2006). That figure includes all branches including veteran benfits (which are getting worse, much worse). That ratio is up from pre-war years of 20% (estimated). Meaning, 11% of the total taxes collected in being used for the war effort, military alone! Secondly, when is $410,000,000,000 a drop in the bucket. Especially considering that 50% of the country doesn't support the damn thing. For a running calculator of the cost, adjusted and based on congressional appropriations (all public knowledge), visit http://nationalpriorities.org/index....tpage&Itemid=1. Read the information available, and then repost your figures.

Because, contrary to other belief, the world does not revolve around the US. We are just a part of it. Its really scary to me to hear people say that kind of crap, and its not really worth commenting on. Also, our actions in the middle east (oil driven), and the view that the US is the only thing that matters, is a major contributor to the rise in power of fundamentalist religeous sects. When you take a lot, and give very little back, it tends to breed hatred.

And these are the people you are defending? Perhaps trust was the wrong word. How about, tollerates, and assumes they are looking out for the best interest of the country and the world, and not their own pocket books and personal vendettas.

With great power comes great responsibility (great quote, Uncle Ben). Being the last of the Superpowers of time long forgotten (by some obviously), brings responsibility of the US to the world. We are highly developed, the worlds largest consumer, and we have some great minds and powerful men within the country. When you are in that position, its a very dangerous fault to think you only have to answer to yourself. Perhapes the actions of Bush and his cronies are only a microcosm for how too many people in the country feel. I for one, am not one of those people, we can work together, or waste time fighting alone.

Falstaff

I see the end of gunboat deplomacy being the end of WWII, and yet we still send our troops in to fight wars we can win easily....but a peace that dies before it is even given a chance to live or grow. IRAQ is a cursed land, and a cursed nation, and anything that we do there is tainted with the blood innocents and the winds that scour the arable soil from the land fills the lungs of fire breathing demons that demand a sacrifice of flesh every single day. We need to get out of IRAQ...

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cozumel

I've just added up and since this thread began 78 Iraqi fatalities have been reported. This includes bodies found beheaded and mutilated. Many, many more have been injured. (The figure quoted above does NOT include insurgents killed by allied forces)

Again I ask: Has the policy of regime change and 'liberation' improved the lives of the Iraqi people?

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kris23

can someone help me figure out what is the purpose of this war?

it started from 9/11 with the crash on the twin-towers right?

we went in there to find the terrorists right?

we captured all who were involved with the exception of Osama Bin Laden right?

our efforts went into re-building the government after we took down Saddam Hussein right?

thats where i got lost....... what are we doing there?

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Dowaco

Not right (at least on paper)
Afghanistan was about cleaning out terrorists camps and looking for Bin Laden.

Iraq was about WMD's and Saddam's defiance of the UN inspectors. Invading Iraq was easier because we already had a large military presence in the region and because public opinion and intelligence data at the time was heavily in favor of cleaning out all possible terrorists strongholds. The motto was "if you are not with us, then you are against us."

Some people mistakenly got the idea that we were chasing 9/11 terrorists in Iraq. While this idea might have been allowed to propagate to make convincing the public easier I don't believe that was the official reason for the war. It was part of the "War on Terror" but not only about al qaeda.

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The above is my opinion and in no way reflects the views of this website.

SaberZ

The whole war to me from the beginning seemed fraudulent. The reasons for entering Iraq were moot. Because of this war, there are smear campaigns and threads about muslims(IE check out Nvnews). I for one agree wtih everything VikingGod and Falstaff have been saying.

If we continue on as we are, the worlds community will eventually tire of our behavior. We consume the most resources, we pretty much get involved in every conflict, yet since we are so good at policing the world, we are unable to police ourselves, resolve the issues of the homeless, resolve our deficit, take care of our people. Invest in our selves to better ourselves much like business.

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SaberZ-
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>GSXR<mrbusa

This war should be won at all costs and if it takes the elimination of every filthy person in all the filthy islamic and muslim countries then so be it. The media should be extracted and we should take care of this thing once and for all. The islamic and muslim religions should be banned and anybody that still wants to practice this fantasy should be executed immediately, white , yellow, brown, or black.
Just so ya know, I hate Bush more than anybody in this world. This war needed to happen no matter who was in office.

Sandok

What? Not only is that really racist but very dumb too... Muslims aren't the problem, it's the extremist!

And this war was useless in every regard possible!

>GSXR<mrbusa

If what I said makes me a racist then so be it.
Grow up man. Do you ever want this terrorism to end? These two religions are the foundation for 100% of the reasons we need to go to the extreme to end this. This war is about race, I did not make it that way, these two fantasy beliefs did.
You go be happy, sweet and nice and think everything is alright and let the rest of us take care of what really needs to be done.
Why do people have to be dicks just because someone has a different opinion then them.

Sandok

Well it is racist, good for you...

I don't CARE for terrorism, it's not ever going to affect my country because I'm not actively trying to piss the world off. This country survived all WWs without any casualties and I live right in the middle of europe, I couldn't care. As for the people affected by terrorism, maybe find out the motives first before killing thousands and displacing millions?

This war is for WMDs, American influence, Oil, Terrorism and I dunno what else... It's about everything. And imho, muslims aren't the problem, and neither are christians or isrealies or anything! It's not the relgion's fault that people take it to extremes!

It's nothing about being a dick or not (as you so eloquently put it), it's about doing the right thing. What noble cause did you have? To get rid of Saddam? One of the FEW dictators who killed his people? Why don't you do the job right and fix all the world's problems and dictators? Oh wait, they don't got oil or anything else of value...

If you're proud of what the US has done, then so be it and I don't mind, it's not my countries reputation, blood or integrity on the line.

>GSXR<mrbusa

Well, if I would have realized you were from a european country then I would not have even responded to your first post. All of europe is no different than the US, it is just that some people like to talk and have opinions and some people take action. It doesn't give anybody the right to call anybody "dumb" in either case. My everyday life has been drastically changed by the events leading up to this war and nobody that isn't from here has any room to talk.
If you want to believe that these religions do not breed terrorists then you go right ahead.

Sandok

How in the world is Europe no different than the US? Have you ever come here, because there is a world of difference.

I never said religion didn't cause terrorists... But dude, religion is a set of rules. ANYONE can exploit them, and even atheists can bomb things for the sake of science or some nonsense.

What's changed in your life so drasticly? I've visited the US countless times since 911 and the only real change is that the horrible airport security is longer and more tedious than before. Normal life hasn't changed at all, at least when I visit but then again, I always go the to East Coast.

cozumel

andAn Islamic country is a country that follows the Muslim faith. (ie only one religion)

Iraqi Civilian/military/police fatalaties since this thread began : 270
(insurgents killed are not included)

I assert again that it is my belief that this war is wrong, cowardly (politicians are the cowards while the military personel and their families show extreme courage and bravery) and should be ended straight away.

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Dowaco

And 7,700 Americans died in the last 7 days from cigarette smoking.

Iraq is in a dangerous part of the world where extremists who think life is cheap make things difficult for citizens. People were dying there under Saddam. If the US left, people would still die. Iran and Iraq had wars with each other, death is a way of life for the Middle East.

620,000 Americans died in the civil war that occured here (1861-1864). Expect some bloodshed.

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The above is my opinion and in no way reflects the views of this website.

cozumel

I never questioned whether bloodshed should be expected in an area where armed combat takes place on a daily basis. As for your other comments, I will stick purely to the subject of this thread only. Other related topics belong in another thread.



The point I am making is that these [270 fatalities] are innocent lives lost. There is an old quotation that may help demonstrate: "[COLOR=#000000]When hope is taken away from a people, moral degeneration follows swiftly after."[/COLOR]

Were 270 innocent lives lost in an average week before the US led invasion in 2003? No

Was extremism a potent force in Iraq in the pre-invasion years? No, because Saddam Hussein and his regime would not tolerate it and brutally quashed anything resembling it.

Is life currently better or worse for the average Iraqi? Worse

Is the average Iraqi thankful for their so-called 'liberation' when taking into account the current quality of life? Emphatically no according to a recent ABC/BBC poll.

Should the US and and its allies get their butts the hell out of Iraq if they are really interested in improving the lives of the average Iaqi? Hell Yes!!

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Dowaco

http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/19675.htm

Examples of "brutal quashing".

There have been documented chemical attacks by the regime, from 1983 to 1988, resulting in some 30,000 Iraqi and Iranian deaths.
Human Rights Watch estimates that Saddam's 1987-1988 campaign of terror against the Kurds killed at least 50,000 and possibly as many as 100,000 Kurds. The Iraqi regime used chemical agents to include mustard gas and nerve agents in attacks against at least 40 Kurdish villages between 1987-1988. The largest was the attack on Halabja which resulted in approximately 5,000 deaths. o 2,000 Kurdish villages were destroyed during the campaign of terror.

Saddam Hussein's regime has carried out frequent summary executions, including:

• 4,000 prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in 1984;
• 3,000 prisoners at the Mahjar prison from 1993-1998;
• 2,500 prisoners were executed between 1997-1999 in a "prison cleansing campaign;"
• 122 political prisoners were executed at Abu Ghraib prison in February/March 2000;
• 23 political prisoners were executed at Abu Ghraib prison in October 2001; and
• At least 130 Iraqi women were beheaded between June 2000 and April 2001.

I'll guess the average Iraqi is better off.

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The above is my opinion and in no way reflects the views of this website.