Circuit City fires 3400 overpaid employees

Dowaco

There are multiple examples in my own work life where a union guy told me or someone else, to stop working so hard because it made them look bad.

Other examples of during strikes where union guys physically intimidated customers or non-union workers, or sabotaged equipment.

These are not people working for the good of the company, they are out to rape the company of all they can because they think they are "owed" something.


Edit: Just saw your last post. I believe you were the one who dismissed my remarks as uninformed. And you know as much about me as we do you.

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DudeBoyz

Your remarks were and still are uninformed. Even if you have not lived it, you should have at least taken the time to research it so that you had a better understanding of the reality.

It matters not to me if you have actually experienced things. You can usually do a pretty good job of learning an issue if you put a serious effort into researching a topic from as many angles as you can.

Blanket statments are hard to make when it comes to complex issues such as this. There are so many abuses on both sides of the issue that neither side may have much credibility when looked at as a whole. But there are individual cases on both sides that defy the norm.

I would not advocate full-on union control that would protect incompetent workers, nor would I advocate absolute power over workers from a corporate standpoint.

I think it would be great if there were some helpful worker protections that would not allow abuses such as the one done here by Circuit City. But I would not want incompetent workers to be protected from being dismissed for cause.

Dowaco

First hand experience is the best teacher. Researching only gives you the opinions and observations of others, many of whom have an axe to grind. This is about our own personal opinions as you said several posts ago. I feel the way I feel because I have worked in union shops and non-union shops and compared the two. My grandfather, my father and I have all been in unions. I have also worked in management. I have shopped at Circuit City and interacted with the employees.

To say, "I don't care what you have actually experienced, you should read about it" is a seriously flawed way of looking at the world.

In my experience, unions lead to a decrease in productivity, a sense of entitlement, and an us vs them mentality. Circuit city is staffed by sales people who are all 100% disposable and replaceable.

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DudeBoyz

Well, then we simply disagree.

People are capable of learning a great deal without actually experiencing events. That's one of the benefits of a well rounded education.

But your callous attitude about workers is annoying enough that I don't want to spend any more time discussing this with you. It's not going to benefit anyone and we both probably have better things to do.

Dowaco

Fair enough. No hard feelings. Thats whats good about forums like this. People can have a difference of opinion. There is no "right" answer to many questions.

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Eeastcoasthandle

I have to agree there are some unfounded, blanket statements made about unions. I've worked in one in the past and statements like:
-lazy
-unwielding
-get paid for more they what they do
-etc.

Always seems to come from someone who has some authority but not enough of it to change the situation of a union. Or, someone who lost their job because of a greivance., etc. (you get the idea).
Most people normally have no clue of what's in a union to say either one thing or another. It's always the ones negatively impacted by a union who has someothing bad to say about it. Dowaco and others, you make it very clear that you were somehow burnt by a union (other then the reasons you state) to make you suggest such selfish ideals. And, to be frank it's getting old.

But the whole union bashing thing is really off topic to this thread. Lets stay on topic of what's being discussed here. If you hate unions that much you are free to create your own thread and discuss it but that's not the topic of conversation here.

Dowaco

I have not been burnt by a union myself. But I have seen plenty of smoke.

1981 Air traffic controllers wanted more pay and less work (32 hrs/wk) and called an illegal strike threatening the economy and national security. selfish? President Regan fired nearly 12000 PATCO workers and air traffic did not suffer.

Teamsters have a long history of affiliation with organized crime. No need to elaborate.

Teachers who get tenure have no accountability to provide quality education. I approve of tenure for college professors where students pay to attend a college, but grade and high school teachers have no reason for tenure. The AFT holds children hostage in negotiating deals for their members who should be re-certified on a regular basis.

I have personally been told by a union worker not to work so hard because it would make my co-workers look bad. This is not an isolated incident. In my experience, every union from ditch diggers to teachers allow workers to sandbag in order to misrepresent the amount of work that is required. Stretching a one man job to two or three or taking two weeks to do a three day job is routine.

If you don't like how you are treated on a job, then quit. Or sue them if they broke a law. Unions hold an entire company hostage over benefits that are not won through hard work but at the point of an imaginary gun. If you don't give ALL our members an extra week vacation then we will shut this place down.

We are talking here (Circuit City) about generally young, unskilled sales people who put on a blue shirt and try to get you to buy something. Pretty much anybody can do that job. Paying someone $22 to do a job that is only worth $15 is foolish.

Maybe this is at the heart of my loathing of unions. I believe corporations do not owe anybody a job or a career. The government does not owe me anything but to provide a safe place to live. There is no guarantee in life that you will be successful or that you will not starve. Like the saying goes, God helps those who help themselves.
Unions allow weak workers to continue to draw pay, they offer no incentive for strong workers to perform beyond expectations and they handcuff the companies they work with by holding productivity hostage.

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Eeastcoasthandle

Who are you to determine a person's worth? I mean to have this eccentric level of social class behavior is beyond normal. A worker should be paid for the work they do not on what you think they should be paid because of your feelings. It always effect the bottom line, revenue! The truth of the matter is that the economy of this country impacts working conditions. So where do you get off thinking this garbage? You have your wires crossed and, what you value is not what dictates the:
-economic conditions of this country
-the value of the US Dollar
-market conditions
-house market for that matter
So please do us all a favor and step down off your high horse. Your opinions are turning into banter. This shades no light on the situation other then a segregated social class structure. Where some want the freedom to pay you based on how they feel "that day" and not on market conditions along with company's profitability and employee performance.

Maddogg6

well - if you want to make a point in a debate forum it does - you avoided my question...
How often do union shops approve of a pay cut to adjust for markets - dont they normally just do lay offs.?? Thats the story I hear most often. Goodbye 'job security'.

Heres another example (just 1 of mine) of union abuse that sickens me.

A Journeyman electrician (doing regular work in a non union shop I worked in) explained to me that the follow was 'normal'; that in order to gain his co-workers endorsements (who btw did ALOT less work than he)- he was expected to by the booze on regular occasions. I got to know the guy pretty well as we worked together over time and just so happened to meet up at the same bar and personally witnessed him paying their tabs.
He simply said - 'when Im in - I'll get the free drinks too from guys like me'

Please post examples and facts of how a union guarentees all the previously posted 'benefits' or how they encourage excellence and not mediocrity.

ronnn

In my union we don't get free drinks and I do work hard. I work hard because that was the the way I was made. No one to buy drinks for, as we are a closed shop. Still I make more money and have better protection from a mid level supervisor that has personality issues. Works for me, especially when the alternative is less money and less security. In my experience most people who hate unions will still work for a union shop as it just pays more and life is better. I agree that some unions are too powerful, the dentist or doctor unions are a prime examples of this.

edit: I deserve some negative rep points for promoting unions on a tech-ola site.

Maddogg6

I see this a *lot* more in union shops - other places simply get rid of such problem supervisors - not so easy in a union shop tho - as you seem to attest to.

Eeastcoasthandle

Are you trying to bait me in a one sided conversation based on something you just made up? I am not clumbsy to fall for that bait and switch. The truth of the matter is very simple and if you want an idea of how a unions work google is your friend. But when I read some of the garbage posted in this thread I am going to post about it. As I said before this is a thread about CC firing 3400 employees and the reported reason(s) behind why they did it. This is not "I hate unions because..." thread. Post like this are again, banter and are off topic to the subject at hand. Instead of relating your conversation about CC you want to discuss unions.

If you are so eager to post "examples" of why you hate unions you can just as easily create your own thread and have a discussion about it. I would think this forum would be the correct area to post it. Once you do, you can get all the opinions you seek in justifying your dissatisfaction and share so called "personal experiences" with other so called "x union and union" members.

Yousaif

I don't like getting into the union vs. non-union debate usually, but maybe this time I need to make an exception. Living in Michigan and being surrounded by auto-related manufacturing facilities I have seen the way that unions can do very well for the worker, but can conversely end up biting off the hand that feeds them.

Look at the big 3 automakers and their financial issues that have really come to light in the past 3-5 years. Years of concessions given to the UAW for pensions and lifelong medical care have forced the automakers into a situation where they may never be able to recover. The negotiators on the side of the automakers were forced into positions that exposed the company to the certainty of financial ruin in the future. The UAW negotiators were either too short-sighted to see this a a possibility in the future or too selfish to care about the future generations of auto workers and their security.

You see, the union and the corporations have to work together to meet the goals of both of them. The corporation wants to be able to continue its business and turn a profit for the shareholders (the owners of the company). The union wants security, fair pay, good benefits AND the ability to be able to continue collecting union dues from the members that work in the facilities.

If the union takes too much then the company suffers from low profits or even losses. If the company doesn't give enough then the union suffers because experienced workers will not stay at a company that they don't perceive as "appreciating them." This, in turn may or may not affect the company, but if it weakens the perception of workers in the union then there is a chance that the union will be voted out.

With regards to this Circuit City issue, I think that CC is free to run their business how they see fit. If they are doing anything illegal then I am sure they will be taken to task on it. I'm not a fan of outsourcing (I recently lost my previous job to a firm in the Phillipines), but as these workers aren't going to be replaced by overseas people, this isn't the case in this situation.

Anyone here that is outraged, or even slightly miffed, about the firings at CC, you need to ask yourself a question. "What did I do to make sure that these people at Circuit City, whom I value so highly, were able to keep their jobs?"

Did you shop at CC?
Did you buy anything there?

I don't know about where you live, but the CC parking lot is generally a very good place to park. I say this because there usually aren't any cars in it. You go over to Best Buy and the place is packed. Maybe CC is just running a battle against another company that is willing to do ANYTHING to drive them out of the game. Maybe they are succeeding.

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Yousaif


Isaiah 1:23

Maddogg6

oooh - did I hit a nerve or what.. ???

How is this 'bait and switch??? I did say unions *were* (read: PAST TENSE) needed at some time. (which you didnt quote me on, but I'll admit to anyway)

its not made up either (I dont appreciate being called a liar btw) .... I don't need Google to understand how unions work - I seen first hand and lots of people tell me their experiences as well.

But I do see points being avoided with 'its off topic' claims - when - imo it is on topic.

Really now I dont see that bolded part in the title... Doesnt your union job supply you with vision coverage - or is this a sign of some reading deficiency??
thread title (aka 'topic') - ' Circuit City fires 3400 overpaid employees' - how are unions OFF TOPIC...

besides - are you the 'topic police' now - I thought we had mods for this??

and... actually reading/comprehending is even a better friend when browsing and posting in forums and you wish to understand a conversation...

AND... still no examples of how unions are needed - or even how a union would have prevented this. BUT MANY examples of abuse posted... hrm....
erm.... it was most likely IBEW - but I wont swear to it - I dont recall being told WHAT union nor did I care what local. As, at the time I had no idea I would be called out on this here. I may not have used 'correct' language/terms - but I think I said it as accurately enough to get the idea across.

AND you could just as easily ignore my posts too...

Amen brotha... with all this loving support for CC employees - CC should be raking in cash instead of bitching about how employees are 'over paid'.

Beside they could have pulled a kmarts on them and done this at christmas. Like I said before - I seen way worse examples of legal 'unfairness' than this.

well its possible with the internet, the FTA and fed-ex/UPS. Its just not practical at the moment. And I have serious doubts a union would be able prevent this either - actually - I think it a union would be part of the motivation to do so. Some companies have shown they will go to great lengths to bust a union.
GM even moved some of its operations to Mexico - and the union didnt stop that either - but they still collect them dues..

@yousaif: how many auto workers have been laid off in the past year?
I bet it was more than 3400. If not it will be. Just in 1 state no less - 3400 nationwide is a drop in the bucket imo.

Dowaco

lol.
There seems to be enough proponents on both sides for a spirited discussion.

Eeastcoast: I am not determining a person's worth, only what their job is worth. Jobs that are unskilled are low paying because the potential workforce is everybody who works. Supply and demand dictates salary. High paying jobs (usually) require workers who have a special skill or advanced knowledge.
3400 CC employees is 8% of their workforce who were overpaid in relation to the market for retail sales employees. I feel sorry for someone who has lost their job but I also understand that without this move, CC would go bankrupt and 40,000 would lose their jobs. That might happen yet since CC is not on the top of the retail electronics food chain.

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The above is my opinion and in no way reflects the views of this website.

Yousaif

47,600 GM and Delphi workers accepted a buyout of their contracts in 2006.

38,000 Ford production workers were bought out in 2006.

Chrysler is aiming to buy out 9,000+ workers this year.

Somehow I have trouble feeling sorry for Circuit City employees spread over 50 states.

But I ask the auto workers: What is your union doing for you? Are they helping you find a new job? Are you back to work? Are you still in the union?

UAW membership, according to their own information, fell by 26,000 in the past year. As the unions wring every last dollar they can out of the auto producers they are screwing themselves and their membership out of a future.

Ford is very close to going under- or at the very least is in the middle of a huge restructuring that may or may not bring them out the other side. If they manage the restructuring anywhere near as poor as they manage the Detroit Lions football team (which is owned by a Ford) they are screwed for sure.

Chrysler is up for sale, and there's a chance that it may be bought up by hedge funds which will strip and sell off the assets of the company. In the long run this will destroy the company.

GM is the only one that seems to be recovering at the moment. Yet I still have to find a new GM vehicle that doesn't look decidedly ugly to me. A box with tires.

Oh well. I guess I'll just get that WRX I've had my eye on.

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Yousaif


Isaiah 1:23

ronnn

You non-union types can be real idiots. The auto sector is dying because we are buying them from korea. So by that logic, we need to become totally like Korea. Time for a diet change.

edit: I lost only one rep point for being politically incorrect!

Maddogg6

You know - calling some people idiots - is not a problem for me - but to say it with out backing it up with some kind of intelligent argument (that *doesn't* help out the opposing view point) is just absolutely moronic.

So... again... how would a union have protected these CC employees - (CC is no different in this respect - CC needed to trim the fat because no one was buying from them - just like the US auto industry.)
How could a union ensure people shop in CC? - By lowering costs? Ha!

they could not save CC employees - which was exactly my point. Thank you for backing it up.. So - it seems pro-union people can be just as bad if not worse for having an un-realistic idea of what a union can do and support their obvious corruption.

No one *needs* a union when the economy/market is good - duh - if you are worth something that is.
When the economy/market is bad - the only ones that seem to stay strong are union leaders - as long as they collect them dues.

ronnn

Not sure if a union would save cc employees or not. A union will bring higher wages and better working conditions. A union does not kill an industry, bad management and a government policy is what does that. Many non-union types belong to a professional association which jealously protects their ticket. These are also very effective unions.

Working together as a group is generally what people do best.

Maddogg6

Yeah - I hear how workers are beaten now a days... like when unions were formed. We have laws to protect us now.
About the higher wages....

A union adds overhead (with those higher wages) to a company - which is passed on to customers - and thus, opens a door for competition to take customers away - so indirectly - yes it does at the very least hamper.

Maddogg6

Huh? - what? jealousy? - of what? hard work and smart choices to get an education instead of partying, or settling on a job anyone can do (thinking its 'good' money when you have no idea what 'good' money is at such an early age - most likely living at home) - or having an unplanned birth 'mess up' your education plans?

(dont even get into 'opportunity' theres more of that to low income than mid-upper income - even then there are GSL's and grants)

but if you would like to post an example of this idea your trying to express? Id love to hear it.

ronnn

Nope, I have education to get my job also. My association is called a union and it protects my wage. Their association is called an association and it protects their and only their right to do a specific job. They also set prices for certain services. Big deal, they make as much money as possible, while maintaining their own ethics and lifestyle. I do the same, but you save your anger for unions. Why?

Maddogg6

anger - what anger? - your not trying to change the subject to some sort of impromptu psych exam are you? Besides, I already posted why I dislike unions.

an example please - I'm not following what your getting at... its either union or not.

*What association* offers such (edit: promises such unfounded - as in - plenty of union people loose their jobs) 'protections' or wage setting? - as someone mentioned before already - its 'supply and demand' - more demand = more 'job protection' and more wage - no associations needed. Its simplicity at its best.

ronnn

In Canada medical docotors set fees with provincial governments. Dentists set fees with insurance companies. Both have a huge say in who gets into universities to get these coveted degrees. Numbers are limited by negotiation with the government and financing. No university can give degrees without an agreement with these associations. This is a closed shop.

Anways, as previously said - my union works well for me. If you want cheap labour, move to a poorer country.

edit: as many have said, you are worth what you can get. I get more when I negociate ensemble with my peers.

Maddogg6

Heres another reason why I see unions a bad for an individual - its called dependence - who will argue dependency is a good thing?
Dependency hinders innovation *unless* its the motivation for innovation.
Eex: dependency on fossil fuel/oil will likely be the motivation for innovation in new fuel/power sources.

ronnn

We are all dependant, which is why we have armies, police and such.

Maddogg6

Um - thats *socialized* or nationalized health care not an association - as in 'socialism' and doesn't compare in a *democratic* environment - this topic is about CC in the USA - right? So lets stick to the country of topic please.

Got any other examples?

We need less dependency, not more, if we wish to be *free* to innovate with out relying on some dependency to be a its motivator.
edit:
ex: say I have an idea to cure aides - but requires large amounts of sulphuric acid (something commonly used for no good - and thus is flagged/limited by law enforcement) - and Im arrested a terrorist suspect or something. This is an example of a dependency that hinders innovation.

Maddogg6

So you admit to getting paid more than your worth?

edit:
And....
What protections do unions provide if union workers can still loose their jobs??

the answer - 'protection' from doing anything but the job they are hired for - yet -
- pitching in - and at times doing a job thats not strictly listed under a job title is hardly considered cooperative or 'working together'.

'It aint my job to clean - we have janitors for that'
Then a potential contract/client tours the facility - is not impressed and the contract is lost.

That kind of 'protection' is counter productive. And I see as hypocritical as well.

Yousaif

Wow. I've really never been included with the "non union type idiots" before. I'm not anti union. I'm anti-intimidation. The unions try to intimidate the corporations into bowing to their demands or they will stop producing and force the company to acquiesce. This tactic has been used for years by the unions to get what they want.

The problem that I have seen is that they often get what they want to the detriment of the company that they are making the demands of.

Ronnnnnnnn says that the auto companies aren't going bankrupt because of the unions, they are going bankrupt because we buy our cars from Korea. I am driving a Chrysler myself at the moment, but let's run with this statement a bit.

From http://www.uaw.org/barg/03/barg02.cfm

So the people that manufacture our cars are making $50,000-$60,000 if they work 40 hours per week. Now I don't know about most of the people that are frequenting these boards, but I have a BS in Computer Science, I am CCNA certified, MCSE certified, A+, Security +, and Network+ certified, and I don't make that much.

THis is not jealousy speaking, if they can get that much money then more power to them, but when the labor costs + the pension costs + the cost of lifetime medical coverage for retirees + the fringe benefits adds $4,000 to the cost of every vehicle, and the Asian companies don't have to carry that kind of cost, it gives them a competitive advantage. Its no wonder people buy the Japanese and the Korean cars. They are getting more car for the money.

Its simple economics. Lower cost + better perceived value = higher sales.

Unions only look so far as the tip of their own nose. As I stated before, I feel that unions and corporations need to form a partnership to ensure that the jobs are still there in the future. By grabbing for everything they can get their hands on for their "membership," they are biting the hand that feeds them.

I feel that if unions and corporations are to be able to survive and even thrive, they need to form a partnership.

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Yousaif


Isaiah 1:23

SFOSOK

edited

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METAL!!