The warmonger and the peacenik

ToshiroOC

Everyone in this thread will stop the attacks. If I see another post even remotely attacking someone personally, I'll close this thread.

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[color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color]
Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

raid517

Fair enough TC, I don't think there's much left to say on this subject anyway...

Q

BWX

Well I really hope that noone here would support things like that, but question 3 and 4 are the important ones, the only reason I asked them is because I heard some things to indicate that I needed some clarification on these particular subjects, I didn't ask you these questions though. I asked him. I think the conclusion to this is he refuses for some reason to answer, which is fine, I will leave it at that.

bluelight

YES or NO, do you think the US DESERVES terrorist attacks?
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I think that there is a reason as there is for everything why Usa were attacked by terrorists.

Some of those reasons are things you brought upon yourself by conducting a foreign politic that breeds terrorism.


Yes or NO, do you think Saddam should be taken from power? And if not be the US then by whome?
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Yes.

By and through the UN.





Bluelight

BWX

YES or NO, do you think the US DESERVES terrorist attacks?


You think we brought it upon ourselves, ok, how.

So you didn't tell me if you think we (US) deserve to be attacked. You said there are reasons-

Of course there are reasons (right or wrong), but I was wondering if you personally think we deserve it?


Also do you you think Usama Bin Laden's reasons for attacking us are just?

bluelight

Well now you are back at where you were before.

To understand why i will not reply to you stupid question i suggest you read Raids answer.

You are not interested in discussing with me.

What you are doing is something else..and you can keep that to yourself.

I will never reply to that question at leasr not to you.

And there is no point in saying im running away.No sane person runs away from stupid questions.

They ignore them.

I gave you a possibility to continue the argument.

Well you wrecked it.




Bluelight

bluelight

While this happened Halabja your conservative government had already for

at least ten years supported the man who carried this out..with weapons,intelligence and advice for ten years.

When it was known about this your senate disallowed further support for the man responsable of this:

Halabja



Your government at the time...did not bother about that and over ruled the senate and continued to support to their friend:Saddam Hussein for another three years.


You should not ask me...wheter you deserve attacks from terrorists or not.

Ask the realtives to these people.Ask the palestinians.Ask the reltives to those 3 000 000 that died in the war

against Iran carried out by :Saddam Hussein....with the full support of your government.

Ask them.

I have no answer for you.They probably do.Im not the problem for you and your worries about not being appreciated.

They are.

Its not me you need to convince....its them.


Bluelight

BWX

So it's my government fault that Saddam Gassed his people? That is why "they" attacked us on 9/11?

BWX

Are you and raid the same person or something? My questions are stupid? Why do you say my questions are stupid? How can a question be stupid?

I didn't wreck anything, I simply asked a question, for days you have been dodging it. I happen to care about my country and I don't appreciate people bashing my President- I will ask you questions you don't like if you continue to insult my president and country. I have not insulted you or provoked you. Nor have I said anything negative about your country or president.-- I cannot believe you won't tell me what you really think- I have heard you (among other people) HINT about how you really feel, but never quite come out and say it. You know what I think, I will answer ANY question you have for me about this subject because I am not afraid of what people think. I am not embarrased to stand for what I believe. If you answer these questions the way I HOPE you would, we wouldn't have a problem. But since you say you won't answer my "stupid" questions- And clarify how you feel about terrorism in general, I must take everything you say negative about my country as an insult by someone who MAY agree with the unagreeable. Please, don't tell me to ask someone else, they aren't the ones insulting my president or my country on this forum. You can say anything you want, but don't be suprised if someone is offended by it and asks you why you said it. When I first posed those questions to you I had no idea you wouldn't answer them and move on- But what am I suppose to think now? I will only ask you this question now- Do you think we (US) or anyone else in the world deserve terrorists attacks? Simple.

BWX

From here:
http://www.proft.org/tips/conv-terror.html


1)First, we have the Ad Hominem Variants where you attack the person as a way to avoid truth, science or logic which might otherwise prove you wrong.


2)Next are the Sleight of Mind Fallacies, which act as "mental magic" to make sure the unwanted subject disappears.


3)Then we move on to Delay Tactics, which are subtle means to buy time when put on the spot.


4)Then the ever popular Question as Opportunity ploys, where any question can be deftly averted.


5)Finally, we have the General Irritants, which are basically "below the belt" punches and cheap-shots.



PRETEND AD HOMINEM:
Make it seem as if the other person is attacking you rather than making a simple point or correction, if you suspect that the other party is right. Rather than staying on the subject, begin to act hurt - as if you have been viciously attacked as a human being - rather than admit you are wrong, or could do better, etc. in some particular. [color=yellow]That will teach them to keep quiet about such things in the future, no?[/color] Also known as the ESCALATION PLOY.


bluelight, you have used 2, 3, 4 and I think a few times 5 to avoid the TOUGH questions.

Pretend and HOMINEN or ESCALATION PLOY also apply here.

bluelight

No but they are partly responsable according to all known logic rules that applies to ethics due to their full support for Saddam and his wars.

Bluelight

BWX

HA- you just had a whole post telling me why you werent going to answer my question and now it is gone You said that insulting my country and president are no concern of yours, I saw it man- before you deleted it- - I should have quoted it I guess. You said some pretty nasty things in there- what, did you have a change of heart? I heard what you said blue- even if noone else saw it- I saw it-

2)Next are the Sleight of Mind Fallacies, which act as "mental magic" to make sure the unwanted subject disappears.

bluelight

Have you been eating mushrooms?

Mind fallacies!!??

Well explore that site further....The type that runs it had a nice button telling me that "I was logged"...as somekind of warning.

That governs for that the dude must be serious doesnt it?

Well...i dont even understand what the crap is about so ill leave you to your studies there and i will also leave you questions unanswered since ....you dont understand what..i say.

But then...anyone that finda site like that interesting...wouldnt.


Bye BWX

Take care


Bluelight

BWX

No, we weren't responisible foe actions of Saddam. That is ridiculous. If that was the case though, why on earth does everybody say we should stay out of Iraq now then? He is torturing his people and doing other dastardly deeds. You cannot have it both ways.

BWX

Whaaa? I really wish I could make out what you meant exactly- But I really couldnt

It always says logged doesn't it? I dunno-

LATER bluelight

(ps- who keeps booting me off this site? It has happend 4 times in the last 2 hours! The site just goes away- my IE window disapears and everything- Is someone playing tricks or something???)

bluelight

First.

As far as im concerned you are partly responsible for the massacre at Halabja.



Second:

Well you are right..the post was deleted..by mistake...to bad...wasnt meant to so ill write it here again in short.


I dont care if you think i am insulting your president or your government.They are of no

relevance whatsoever to me other than that i will always argument against their politics.

To me they are extreme right wing people.

I am not.





They and you would probably look upon me as an extreme left wing person.You also try to tell this

board that i support terrorism and you have also done so in writing.

I dont care about that either.


We dont have the same political scale...Left...in Usa....begins...where right ends..is in Europe.

Followingly we dont see the world with the same eyes.

No..the post wasnt deleted on purpose..to bad it was.


And no..now im finished talking to you.


Bluelight

BWX

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bluelight

Yeah.


Bluelight

BWX

You are responsible for the massacre at Halabja.
because your government did nothing.

And your government supports anything and nothing.

Falstaff

The brutal massacre of the oppressed and innocent people of Halabja began before the sunrise of Friday, 17th of March 1988. The Iraqi regime committed its most tragic and horrible crime against the civilian people on Friday, 17th of March, 1988. On that day, Halabja was bombarded more than twenty times by Iraqi regime's warplanes with chemical and cluster bombs. That Friday afternoon, the magnitude of Iraqi crimes became evident. In the streets and alleys of Halabja, corpses piled up over one a nother. Tens of children, while playing in front of their houses in the morning, were martyred instantly by cyanide gases. The innocent children did not even have time to run back home. Some children fell down at the threshold of the door of their houses and never rose. In a Simorgh Van, the corpses of 20 women and children who had been prepared to leave the town and the chemical bombardment of the town had deprived them of this opportunity, made any observer stop and ponder about the corpses of these innocent people were evident.

The doors of most houses were left open and inside of each house, there were some martyred and wounded people. The enemy had heightened the cruelty and heart-hardness to its peak and took no pity on its own people. This crime in the chemical bombardment of Halabja has indeed been unprecedented in the history of the imposed war. This crime in Halabja can never be compared to the tragedy of the chemical bombardment of Sardasht. In Halabja more than five thousand people were martyred and over seven thousand more were wounded. Women and children formed 75 percent of the martyrs and wounded of the bloody Friday of Halabja.

Along with Halabja, Khormal, Dojaileh and their surrounding frequently but the center of the catastrophe was Halabja. In late April 1987, twenty four villages of Iraq's Kudistan were targeted by the chemical bombardment because of the struggles of the Muslim-Kurds people of this town and their open opposition to the regime ruling in Iraq. These villages were chemically bombarded twice in less than 48 hours.

BWX

Yes because he said our government was responsible for it because we did nothing. I guess it makes his government equally responsible.

Falstaff

I disagree, I think one could draw some conclusions based on the evidence, but believe or not the incident was never fully investigated, We have eyewitness accounts, but the published reports that made it back to the U.S. were clouded in secrecy, I was told that the gas came from France, the planes from France and the USA, without our knowlege of course...and that it really began to turn the tide of political sentiment or world opinion against Hussein...but the turks killed kurds too, and Albanians too, the account has been denied for over a century I believe we will finally know the truth after we find the remnants of Saddams arsenal and the paper trails within the obselete infrastructure...and it might just point fingers back at the entire free world....Saddam was ruthless, but if we had never put him in power, what would have IRAQ been now? Hard to think or imagine...but I thought about it off the coast of Kuwait, as we launched Tomohawks at the occupying forces and IRAQ....

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BWX

Yes, we could go on forever speculating WHO REALLY is a fault- what I said that according to the logic bluelight used to come to the conclusion the US government was at fualt, the same train of thought would also come to the conclusion that HIS government is at fault because they also did NOTHING. See? I think Saddam is at fualt for gassing his own people, him and his regime alone. Read the posts above to see why I said that to him about his government- he always wants it both ways, and the US is always the bad guys and Saddam is the good guy because we didn't do anything and there are worse people out there than Saddam-

blulight, come up with an original thought for once will you, I have heard everything you are spouting many times before- All of your points are meaningless to me because they come from a point of veiw that support terrorism and Saddam and condemn America at all costs, even at the cost of the person spouting all that nonsense sounding brainwashed and illogical. Please, tell me what you think, not what you hear on the anti-american newspaper and tv channel.

Falstaff

Quote:

blulight, come up with an original thought for once will you, I have heard everything you are spouting many times before- All of your points are meaningless to me because they come from a point of veiw that support terrorism and Saddam and condemn America at all costs, even at the cost of the person spouting all that nonsense sounding brainwashed and illogical. Please, tell me what you think, not what you hear on the anti-american newspaper and tv channel.

It is difficult to understand sometimes, the unique ideology of any one person, assuming you can communicate on the same level. It takes some real patience and perhaps insight or introspection to find the salient points in someones argument, whether you agree or not, in short. I understand Bluelight because he is European, and more european than most, if you talk to someone from his country you might just find yourself in a running argument all the way to the subway. I don't agree with him all the time, but within the context of debate, he makes logical and clear statements when someone isn't pushing his buttons, you could say the same of anyone. I know you might not agree, but try for once to put yourself in someone elses shoes for a change, my opinions are based on my experience, I live in Europe when I was kid, when I think of Europe, I think of big breasts, good beer and tolerance, lots of tolerence for young american men grabbing some tail and acting foolish..ha ha...
But that is beside the point. If you can sit down somewhere with anyone and discuss the affairs of the world and the day, and it's socio-economic ramifications, or how much you dislike the politics of another country or person, WITHOUT MAKING AN ASS OUT OF YOURSELF......you can accomplish alot...

I have lived in coutries where americans are barely tolerated and visited countries where we are barely human by their standards...and kept the peace....There was no forum to exercise my opinion and defend my objections to the regime in power....I was lucky to have a clean place to eat and sleep and crap....sorry.

My point is here you can show your character, your opinions or your ass, and if your polite...you might be treated the same, ha ha..

bluelight

My government has not sold arms to Iraq.Nor have they helped him with intelligence about Iranian troop movements toi makje it easier for Saddam to find and attack them.

We did recieve a lot of soldiers from Iran though that where hurt by nervegas that Saddam had used against them.



They were sent here because the Iranians thought we could help them better with medical care and they wanted to proove Saddams use of nervegas.

All of those sent here.....died....


and....your governments support for Saddam continued od course..


We have not been involved in overthrowing nor governments in Iraq or elsewhere like you have.



Yes you are partly responsilble for the war between Iran and Irak in which 3 million people died.

You are also partly responsible for the use of nervegas and you are also probably partly responsible for supplying Saddam with technology which made his use of nervegas possible.


This ..because...you ACTIVELY supported Saddam.


Sweden..worked ACTIVELY AGAINST...the war between Iran and Irag in both the UN and elsewhere.

WE are not as far as i knoe involved in any way whatsoever ion Supporting Saddam wars.

WE have instead recieved about 80 000 refugees from Iraq of whom the major part came here during the war against Iran WHICH YOU ACTIVELY SUPPORTED.


Some of the people in YOUR current government..............were ACTIVELY...supporting Iraq at this time.One of them is Rumsfeld.



Im not saying you are responsible because you did nothing.


Im saying you are partly responsible BECAUSE YOU ACTIVELY SUPPORTED SADDAM TO WAGE WAR although.you were AWARE of that he used WMD´S and that his requiem was rotten to the core...


And...you did this for one single reason.....IT SERVED YOUR OWN PURPOSES in the mideast.





Bluelight

Falstaff

Quote:

Im saying you are partly responsible BECAUSE YOU ACTIVELY SUPPORTED SADDAM TO WAGE WAR although.you were AWARE of that he used WMD´S and that his requiem was rotten to the core... And...you did this for one single reason.....IT SERVED YOUR OWN PURPOSES.

This is old news Blue....we forever will face the indignation of history students all over the world in years to come when they study the Gulf War.......but life goes on...

Quote:

My government has not sold arms to Iraq.Nor have they helped him with intelligence about Iranian troop movements toi makje it easier for Saddam to find and attack them. We did recieve a lot of soldiers from Iran though that where hurt by nervegas that Saddam had used against them. They were sent here because the Iranians thought we could help them better with medical care and they wanted to proove Saddams use of nervegas. All of those sent here.....died.... and....your governments support for Saddam continued od course.. We have not been involved in overthrowing nor governments in Iraq or elsewhere like you have.

Is this the Rumsfeld argument again......come one man.....it's over...different president now, different world view, different countries involved.......Even Iran has changed as well, and without the same degree of violence..right?

Quote:

Im saying you are partly responsible BECAUSE YOU ACTIVELY SUPPORTED SADDAM TO WAGE WAR although.you were AWARE of that he used WMD´S and that his requiem was rotten to the core...

You means unfortunately some European countries as well man...I don't think I have to mention who right?
Maybe we can change the path the world is following with this latests conflict....lessons learned right...
It isn't all about Avarice right....you know....love for money above all else....absolute power corrupts absolutely right....perhaps it's time for the world to recognize the futility of old imperialist policies....

bluelight

Qoute Jeff


Is this the Rumsfeld argument again......come one man.....it's over...different president now, different world view, different countries involved.......Even Iran has changed as well, and without the same degree of violence..right?


Yeah its partly the same argument but a new American ...that of course knows nothing about this or any others of tyhe mess you historically have been involved in these last 50 years.

Wonder why.

Iran has changed....but not because the war with Iraq...and not because of Usa.



Bluelight

bluelight

And i forgot...Yes...France sold arms to Saddam..so did Britain....BUT....you were his main supporter during this time.


That is why it is so utterly laughabale to hear you government claim that France used to support Saddam.....and whine about that................................. when your very same politicians (as Rumsfeld) themselves were part of the active support from you to Saddam at the time.


Makes them credible? Hardly. Do i believe in these peoples intentions of today??

Well....If i should judge them by their intentions and ways back then............Hardly.



Bluelight

Falstaff

Credibility is not the issue....it has been diminished and then enhanced by the conflict in IRAQ, it would be a difficult argument to say that the war with IRAQ began in 1957....I think it did, but then I am a little altruistic....everything is connect somehow...we are all stardust with a little divine magic we live and breath, and we poisen our world with wars and pestilence that we cause...we point fingers, we throw excrement and piss upriver of our neighbors, and then we fight over it, ha ha...Seriously, I think the informed IRAQ people have long studied the ideolgically fueled wars and found them wanting....they lack real substence unless you see the tremendous advantages that most countries enjoy when we rebuild and occupy....I am not making an argument against such things, they happen...In fact we have improved the economies of some countries when we make geo-political changes.....that pisses lots of people off including americans...but it happens....you might find it smacks of some kind of imperialist mission of presidents to project power and eliminate world leaders that don't make the grade on a human level....

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bluelight

Well its difficult because you do a lot of good things and you have a positive influence on development in the world in so many senses but i guess that it is like everything else....ALL (including we ourselves) coins have two sides to them ..im willing to accept that as a fact...but i have trouble with others refuising to see more than one :-)