The warmonger and the peacenik

bluelight

By Bill Davidson

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PeaceNik: Why did you say we are we invading Iraq?

WarMonger: We are invading Iraq because it is in violation of Security
Council resolution 1441. A country cannot be allowed to violate
Security Council resolutions.

PN: But I thought many of our allies, including Israel, were in
violation of more security council resolutions than Iraq.

WM: It's not just about UN resolutions. The main point is that Iraq
could have weapons of mass destruction, and the first sign of a smoking
gun could well be a mushroom cloud over New York.

PN: Mushroom cloud? But I thought the weapons inspectors said Iraq had
no nuclear weapons.

WM: Yes, but biological and chemical weapons are the issue.

PN: But I thought Iraq did not have any long range missiles for
attacking us or our allies with such weapons.

WM: The risk is not Iraq directly attacking us, but rather terrorist
networks that Iraq could sell the weapons to.

PN: But couldn't virtually any country sell chemical or biological
materials? We sold quite a bit to Iraq in the Eighties ourselves,
didn't we?

WM: That's ancient history. Look, Saddam Hussein is an evil man that
has an undeniable track record of repressing his own people since the
early Eighties. He gasses his enemies. Everyone agrees that he is a
power-hungry lunatic murderer.

PN: We sold chemical and biological materials to a power-hungry lunatic
murderer?

WM: The issue is not what we sold, but rather what Saddam did. He is
the one that launched a pre-emptive first strike on Kuwait.

PN: A pre-emptive first strike does sound bad. But didn't our
ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie, know about and green-light the
invasion of Kuwait?

WM: Let's deal with the present, shall we? As of today, Iraq could sell
its biological and chemical weapons to Al Qaida. Osama Bin Laden
himself released an audio tape calling on Iraqis to suicide-attack us,
proving a partnership between the two.

PN: Osama Bin Laden? Wasn't the point of invading Afghanistan to kill
him?

WM: Actually, it's not 100% certain that it's really Osama Bin Laden on
the tapes. But the lesson from the tape is the same: there could easily
be a partnership between Al Qaida and Saddam Hussein unless we act.

PN: Is this the same audio tape where Osama Bin Laden labels Saddam a
secular infidel?

WM: You're missing the point by just focusing on the tape. Powell
presented a strong case against Iraq.

PN: He did?

WM: Yes, he showed satellite pictures of an Al Qaida poison factory in
Iraq.

PN: But didn't that turn out to be a harmless shack in the part of Iraq
controlled by the Kurdish opposition?

WM: And a British intelligence report...

PN: Didn't that turn out to be copied from an out-of-date graduate
student paper?

WM: And reports of mobile weapons labs...

PN: Weren't those just artistic renderings?

WM: And reports of Iraqis scuttling and hiding evidence from
inspectors...

PN: Wasn't that evidence contradicted by the chief weapons inspector,
Hans Blix?

WM: Yes, but there is plenty of other hard evidence that cannot be
revealed because it would compromise our security.

PN: So there is no publicly available evidence of weapons of mass
destruction in Iraq?

WM: The inspectors are not detectives, it's not their JOB to find
evidence. You're missing the point.

PN: So what is the point?

WM: The main point is that we are invading Iraq because Resolution 1441
threatened "severe consequences." If we do not act, the Security
Council will become an irrelevant debating society.

PN: So the main point is to uphold the rulings of the Security
Council?

WM: Absolutely. ...unless it rules against us.

PN: And what if it does rule against us?

WM: In that case, we must lead a coalition of the willing to invade
Iraq.

PN: Coalition of the willing? Who's that?

WM: Britain, Turkey, Bulgaria, Spain, and Italy, for starters.

PN: I thought Turkey refused to help us unless we gave them tens of
billions of dollars.

WM: Nevertheless, they may now be willing.

PN: I thought public opinion in all those countries was against war.

WM: Current public opinion is irrelevant. The majority expresses its
will by electing leaders to make decisions.

PN: So it's the decisions of leaders elected by the majority that is
important?

WM: Yes.

PN: But George Bush wasn't elected by voters. He was selected by the
U.S. Supreme C...

WM: I mean, we must support the decisions of our leaders, however they
were elected, because they are acting in our best interest. This is
about being a patriot. That's the bottom line.

PN: So if we do not support the decisions of the president, we are not
patriotic?

WM: I never said that.

PN: So what are you saying? Why are we invading Iraq?

WM: As I said, because there is a chance that they have weapons of mass
destruction that threaten us and our allies.

PN: But the inspectors have not been able to find any such weapons.

WM: Iraq is obviously hiding them.

PN: You know this? How?

WM: Because we know they had the weapons ten years ago, and they are
still unaccounted for.

PN: The weapons we sold them, you mean?

WM: Precisely.

PN: But I thought those biological and chemical weapons would degrade
to an unusable state over ten years.

WM: But there is a chance that some have not degraded.

PN: So as long as there is even a small chance that such weapons exist,
we must invade?

WM: Exactly.

PN: But North Korea actually has large amounts of usable chemical,
biological, AND nuclear weapons, AND long range missiles that can reach
the west coast AND it has expelled nuclear weapons inspectors, AND
threatened to turn America into a sea of fire.

WM: That's a diplomatic issue.

PN: So why are we invading Iraq instead of using diplomacy?

WM: Aren't you listening? We are invading Iraq because we cannot allow
the inspections to drag on indefinitely. Iraq has been delaying,
deceiving, and denying for over ten years, and inspections cost us tens
of millions.

PN: But I thought war would cost us tens of billions.

WM: Yes, but this is not about money. This is about security.

PN: But wouldn't a pre-emptive war against Iraq ignite radical Muslim
sentiments against us, and decrease our security?

WM: Possibly, but we must not allow the terrorists to change the way we
live. Once we do that, the terrorists have already won.

PN: So what is the purpose of the Department of Homeland Security,
color-coded terror alerts, and the Patriot Act? Don't these change the
way we live?

WM: I thought you had questions about Iraq.

PN: I do. Why are we invading Iraq?

WM: For the last time, we are invading Iraq because the world has
called on Saddam Hussein to disarm, and he has failed to do so. He must
now face the consequences.

PN: So, likewise, if the world called on us to do something, such as
find a peaceful solution, we would have an obligation to listen?

WM: By "world", I meant the United Nations.

PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the United Nations?

WM: By "United Nations" I meant the Security Council.

PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the Security Council?

WM: I meant the majority of the Security Council.

PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the majority of the Security
Council?

WM: Well... there could be an unreasonable veto.

PN: In which case?

WM: In which case, we have an obligation to ignore the veto.

PN: And if the majority of the Security Council does not support us at
all?

WM: Then we have an obligation to ignore the Security Council.

PN: That makes no sense.

WM: If you love Iraq so much, you should move there. Or maybe France,
with all the other cheese-eating surrender monkeys. It's time to
boycott their wine and cheese, no doubt about that.

PN: Here... have a pretzel, instead.

Falstaff

where did you find this gem?

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bluelight

A guy posted it on a musician board i visit.I thought it was funny.It illustrates very good what has been said on boards the last months very well he he...

Bluey

Falstaff

Musicians, Artists and creative people in general....are divided on the subject of War and Peace...

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SH4President

bluelight.

Thats the best post I have seen on this board.
The best way too harm a powerfull nation or person is by humor

ToshiroOC

That was frustrating reading, because so many different situations were broadly misinterpreted by both sides... for just a couple, 1441 was a Chapter VII resolution, Israeli resolutions were Chapter VI... and North Korea is not trying to spark a war with it's nuclear capability, it is only saber rattling to try and get more aid from the US.

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[color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color]
Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

The_Neon_Cowboy

Ok... for starters how about the locatrion that had be inpected by the ubinspectors twice but our troops found mass amounts of chemial suits and powder based exploseives.... chemical tringing information and a small amont of VX nerve GAS- a chemiacal weapon , and it had been there for a long time by the looks of things... as I do remeber if it was you or raid that siad this " well the weapons inspectors are not really looking for WMD" the iraqys are supossed to declare them / tell them were they are .... yea right like that would EVER happen....It looks like wepond inpectors missed alot like scud missles/chinaese ship to ship cruze missles/ FOGS a cold ware relliac not very accurate becouse it was primaly built to be used for WMD/ the huge amounts of chemical siuts and handleing information. So the sadia areabran lead and made mostly of sadia areabrans citzens (some county 19 of the sept 11th attackers came from....) I found this very disturbing as well as Iraq being head the the undisarmerment commision and libia being head of human rightd/war crimes comission. That like puting hitler in charge of the jews... and epect them to be treated fair .....nuff said

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Falstaff

And wasn't it Rossevelt that sent a ship full of Jewish refugees back to Europe to die in death camps...ah crap, don't get me started. Saddam definitely has the means and the potentiol to use WMD, I believe it may be his trump card and he has entrusted the use to a subordinate that I hope and pray will recieve a divine ephiphony and not use it..

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Falstaff

involved in the use of powerful weapons of incredible destruction and I got to kick the sand around in Iraq befroe we left, it is terrible and is nothing compared to what could happen now..I support our military, and their efforts to find this terrible cache of destructive technology..

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Falstaff

So You Wanna Be An Anti-War Protester

A visit to Greenwich Village of a greater duration than 37 seconds can help you decide if you want to be an anti-war protester. On any given day, on any given year you'll find stickers on lampposts which say "NYPD = KKK." I didn't see any footage of guys in white sheets doing rescue work in the WTC, but hey that's me. I grew up outer borough.

You on the other hand have serious emotional issues and the voices tell you Bush is just like Hitler. You may have just what it takes to be a contributing member of those gatherings of needy people seeking negative attention otherwise known as protests.

So welcome to poseland. A strange world where image is everything but the worst thing is to be called a poseur. Here's the BloggerRabbit field guide to identifying the type of anti-war protester you'd like to be.

Specimen #1 - Local Yocal: These guys are the workhorses of the anti-war movement. Their grandparents were old communists, their parents are old socialists and they're like you know, um....kind uh...not into the whole conservative outlook thing. (Gee? Ya Think?). The world works in strange ways. If you live in an isolated environment like Montana and are afraid that current US policies means UN sponsored black helicopters are coming to tell everyone what to do and think you're a stupid hick. If you live in an insulated environment like The Village and are afraid that US policies means that UN sponsored helicopters aren't coming to tell everyone what to do and think: you're a sophisticated urbanite.

Specimen #2 - Really Rotten Artist: You'll get to employ such really cool phrases as "not what the establishment recognizes" and "who are you to say I'm not an artist" which in English means no one wants to pay for my crap and I'm ashamed to acknowledge that you hold the same opinion as everyone else I meet. Now with a war to protest, you'll really come into you're own. Those papier-mache puppets you made for the purpose of selling them to your friends for their baby's nurseries, were so bad they seriously emotionally scarred three month olds. Now you can say these are models of humans deformed from depleted uranium. No one will (in fact no one could) suspect these were not the original purpose of the puppets. You can also scrawl a Hitler mustache on George W. Bush. This will be the first time you've actually done portraiture. So stand up against the Man. He doesn't buy your Art and its time you let him know how you feel about that.

Specimen #3 - Preening CopFighter: These guys have convinced themselves somehow that fighting cops is tougher and more macho than what the US Marines do. They're sure that "fighting against the means to maintain the establishment" is a hell of a lot more macho than actual warfare. Reality won't set in with these guys since they would then have to face up to some serious latency issues. Dressing up in black boots, leather jackets and t-shirts with the proper anarchy symbol is not a uniform after all. Its liking how you look in black boots and leather. As for the Palestinian head scarf worn as a scarf around the neck, these guys have wanted to wear a scarf for a long time. They've finally found one "militant" enough to provide cover. If you consider the rumors about Yassir Arafat's predilections and then look at these guys you realize they're "natural allies" after all.

Specimen #4 - Concerned European Couple: The wife is always named Regina and had American parents, the husband is always named either Gunther or Torm. They make their living as lighting designers and decided they had to come out and let their dissatisfaction with the US government be known. Torm will tell you he's traveled extensively through Israel and the United States and they are actually his favorite countries to live in and visit. Its just that controlling their military might is "basic to European and World identity politics". He seems like a nice sincere guy so you don't think to challenge him. Then you go home and the following phrase runs through your mind....WTF????

Specimen #5 - Grass Roots Contingent: You can always rely on these guys to artificially swell the head count at any protest. They've got only one issue though that they care about. Legalizing marijuana and they've got a pretty clever catch phrase to let you know it. It goes "We smoke pot 'cause we like it a lot". Ironically they are very effective at getting people to change their minds about legalizing marijuana. Once you look at these guys its pretty obvious that marijuana did not rob them of their dreams to be brain surgeons.

Now its time to choose. A word of caution. You will not be allowed to inject any individuality or originality into these roles. While Jews, Catholics, Protestants, gays, vegetarians and more can run the entirety of the political spectrum on any given issue, you'll always look like you walked out of the sixties. So check your brain at the door and whatever shred of a personality you may have into the garbage. Its time to be an anti-American war protester. Remember. People dumber than you have risen far in their ranks. You'll just have to compensate.

Specimen #6 - Intelligent Protester: They exist, and are often ignored by many in preference of their stupider collegues.

ToshiroOC

Spacimen #6 - Intelligent Protester: They exist, and are often ignored by many in preference of their stupider collegues.

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[color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color]
Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

GOG

All chapter 6 resolutions against Israel have been vetoed by USA, there has been over 30 of them so far. 1441 was also about WMD only, where are the WMD? Just beacuse it's a chapter 7 resolution doesn't mean some countries can start wars at will.

raid517

Man what gets me is how down right vicious and nasty some of these right wing commentators are. People who protest are dum hicks hu? So maybe the peace and freedom protestors in the 60s in the American South shouldn't have protested - and the black people of America could still live under the shadow of oppression? The ability to protest is what makes a democracy/republic (call it what you will) a worthwhile place to live in. If you want to ban protestors, along with promoting state sanctioned torture, imprisonment without charge and all the other sh*t that has happend recently, then you just become everything you are supposed to be fighting against. When will the right finally undestand this? Or perhaps they don't care...?

The troops that are abroad ought to be thankful that the protestors exist, as this is the very reason they are supposed to be there. Or perhaps they will go there and impose a govenment and tell them that they are not suppsed to protest either? Isn't that dictatorship? Why would you wish to export these values when these people have spen so long struggling agaist them?

Q

Falstaff

There are lots of quiet people out there that have to work, and feed their families and feel as strongly against or for the war..It's just television, I don't give a flying you know what the media says...You don;t really get a good picture of americans watching the news. The same media that brings you the war in technicolor also bring you the sign waving people too, I take it all with a grain of salt.

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raid517

So you don't value it? You don't value freedom of the press and freedom to protest? Then what values of freedom do you believe in Jeff? I think the ballance is about right - except that ordinary people's voices aren't always listend to quite as much as they should be.

I swear sometimes I don't understand republicans, they argue against freedom of the press, against freedom to protest against freedom of expression on the internet, in favour of repressive acts such as the patriot act, in favour of state sanctioned torture, in favour of locking people up without charge and on an on it goes... And then they go off and start wars in the name of something they call 'freedom and democracy.' What freedom and what democracy is that I wonder? One were speaking their minds, freedom of association and freedom of the press are forbidden and where torture and imprisonment without charge are common practice? Why do you need to invade them to give them this when they have this already?

Sigh... I don't know, as I said, you guys confuse the hell out of me sometimes.

Q

Falstaff

WE ARE CONFUSED, ha ha...I believe in Freedom but I know it comes with a price, I think antiwar protesters and professional malcontents (journalists) aren't willing to pay the price...but after the war is over and the dead journalists are eulogized maybe people will see the value of one aspect of freedom, it takes sacrifice to strengthen resolve..

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bluelight

It is exactly like it was in the sixties today.Exactly the same.That time it ended with several million dead asians.

That time Usa managed to keep the UN out of it by blocking the issue in the security council for years.

Gonna be interseting to se the result of everything going on in the Mideast today.

Bluelight

BWX

LOOK bluelight! A guy that named himself SH4President or (S)addam (H)ussien (4)for President likes your little Saddam supporting post! Good job, way to win over the Saddam supporters.

Funny thing is, that whole thing is a bunch of BS-

Amazing how the WM never asks the PN one question isn't it? This portrays the PN having absolute control over the conversation, almost like a forced interrogation.

I can't help but think of the PN as an Iraqi soldier or Saddam himself and the WM as a coalition soldier POW tied to a chair after being tortured for days.
There is a light shining in his face and a gun pointed at his head, maybe a pair of pliers attached to his fingernails for good measure. (not too far fetched so far) There is someone in the background with big huge cue-card for him to read the answers off from and if he doesn't read them exactly as printed exactly when he is told he will be tortured more. That is the only time people on both sides of that argumunt would have that converstion. Very fitting for alot of peoples views towards Iraq though. You should send it to Saddam so we can but that on his gravestone.

Only a fool would think that post has anything to do with reality. The scary thing is that there are many people who would look at that and think that the fake Q&A session is a reflection on the way things are, when in reality it is nothing more than a person twisting (and breaking) the facts to support their anti-american arguments.


Read it again w/ that image in your mind- it fits perfectly! It sounds like it was writen by Bagdad Bob.

radTube

It sounds a lot more like any debate here.

Whyever did you get so worked up for something like that nice little piece of comedy? I thought it was quite funny actually, and not least due to it's accuracy. I've seen most of these arguments posted right here on DH Political Forums. Right down to the namecalling part...

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bluelight

Look this is a pulic forum..Do we agree to that?

I am Bluelight...You are BWX...SH is SH....Now...lets keep it that way shall we....

Qoute BWX


"Amazing how the WM never asks the PN one question isn't it? This portrays the PN having absolute control over the conversation, almost like a forced interrogation. "




Again....you posed a number of questions...I have said before....YOU coupled them with insults so why should i answer them?

It is the fifth time on this board that someone is making allusions to my mental health or accusing me of supporting terrorism?Im not taking that from anyone.Not anyone.

Do i accuse you of supporting murder when i bring up that fact that Usa helped Saddam into power?

No i am discussing a fact that you as an individual is not rersponsible for.

No...followingly...you should not accuse me of either being screwed up or for supporting terrorism.

If you restrain from this i will gladly reply to whatever youque you have to ask.

Its your choice.

Bluelight

BWX

That is a complete lie- tell me where I insulted you in that post. Go ahead- start cutting and pasting. - I never did once in that post- Don't go telling me I am insulting you when I am not. I asked you questions all the time- you don't answer any of them- I asked you questions without even saying anything else BUT the questions anf you say the questions are ridiculous and get mad at me for asking, Now you say you will answer but only if I don't insult you- well I got news for you - I did already and you are afraid to answer them.

Show me where I said YOU were screwed up!

I ASKED you if you think the US deserves terrorist attacks and you WOULD NOT ANSWER. Therfore by your actions and posts I assume you do because you will not say you don't when I give you the chance. You run away from these questions and say you won't answer. Don't be putting words in my mouth.

BWX

No this is an insult:
See the difference???? Personal attack, not a debate- Just throwing insults and not debating the issues.
See, this is a political DEBATE forum (where people can ask questions to prove a point), not a Political insult forum so people like luleandy can make themseves look like they have no idea what they are talking about by throwing insults around when asked a question .

bluelight

Im not gonna look up the "You are screwed" as you posted cause im not wasting anymore time on you.

YOu are not worth the time.

In the post below you claim twice that i support terrorism.Apart from the other baloney you write

YOU EVEN CLAIM I AM A CANDIDATE TO JOUN A TERRORIST CELL!


Well Patriot....



Chew your freedom......Enjoy the cheering....WHILE IT LAST`S..................And never adress me again.


Bluelight









No, you are ignorant to the fact that they hate us because of our freedom and power, regardless what we make our business. Maybe the reason Moskow didn't gat attacked by terrorists is because the terrorist like doing business w/ that country. Did you ever think of that? Why do you think Russia and France were against the war? Yes, because they supported Saddam the entire time, did business w/ him and supported his regime.

And we obviously aren't the only country being attacked by these low life terrorists, so why are all the other countries getting attacked? Is it their own fault too? Did you not see the reports that Saddam paid 25,000 dollars to the families of suicide bombers? Or will you deny that like you do ALL the rest of the facts surrounding his regime?
Actually you sound like you support terrorism, do you? Coming from a country that is supposedly "neutral", you sure sound like you sure are on Saddam's, the taliban's, and all the other terrorist's side.

I guess we will just have to keep killing all the terrorists like the human trash they are, and you and people like you will blame the terrorist's choice to murder people for no reason on the US. Actually it sounds like you would be a great candidate to go join a terrorist cell, you say the exact same things they say, very interesting.

You have a lot to say for someone with absolutely NO facts to back up your claims. Huh, you can't even answer Tirosho's question! You just keep spewing anti-American statements, that is all you know.

BWX

What is this? I see nowhere that I say screwed here. This was a post directed to GOG from one of his QUOTES! What is this nonsense?? I never said anybody on these forums were screwed up- I believe in some post somewhere I mentioned terrorists in general or people that support them being screwed up, as they obviously are. But I never said you were screwed up, although with as many times as you said I said you were I am begining to wonder. I am still going to get you to answer those questions one of these days, so I know where you really stand on terrorism. There IS a reason you make such a fuss about a few simple questions, and the only reason I ask is to clarify what your veiws are so that I may have a reasonable discussion with you without thinking I am talking to a terrorism supporter. In which case there is no hope and I wouldn't waste my time. There is always a ying and yang, I see some things you say here in these forums and I must step up to the plate and take the role as the ying to your yang. Now, I guess I will get the answers I was looking for sooner or later, maybe after you go read the posts and realize I never said you were screwed up. But still, if someone asked me those questions (and you know what they are) I would not hesitate to voice my opinions on those topics. I can't help but wonder WHY you dodge, acuse, and run away. it makes me all the more curious as to why I see all the weirdness coming from you. But whatever, you just keep being the anti-American ying and I will keep being the pro-American yang. That is part of what this forum is all about. RIGHT?

bluelight

Well actually...you are right.It wasnt me that you were claiming would be part of a terrorist cell.It was someone else who had the honour.Hardly makes you look any better does it?

Wether this dude deserved your insult is for others to judge personally i still think that your post is bollocks.


Instead i dug up this from your puke you have left around this board

Qoute from the post by yourself below:

So quick to forgive the murderers and rapists, so hesitant to understand reason. They weren't forced into anything- they had a choice, the world gave them 12 years to disarm, their choice was no, they would rather die in a hopeless war. I am glad you side w/ murderers and people who torture and rape for hobbies. What a great person you are for this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok Thanks for explaining that i side with murderers and rapists.

Now...for the rest....

As i said before....enjoy your Tv reports and the cheering while they last and next time you post anything in reply to me ( which i seriously dont want you to do)...dont forget to switch on your brain.




Bluelight




















BWX232
SOF2~ best MP FPS of all time

Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Buffalo New York
Posts: 845


quote:

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Originally posted by bluelight
you are planning to have an American general as head of Iraq and no influence (other than omoney)
Btw..I Just hear reports saying the Iraq `i military resistance from the "major" divisions is dead due to the heavy bombings of them .I hope that is true and that they arent inside Bagdad in thousands.



forced in to this..that now are dead in thousands.

Well have you checked how many Americans that want to bomb France after your fasict campaign against free speech and free will that was aimed at France?

Id like to see such a poll.It would explain things.



Bluey
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I feel so sorry for the people who willingly carried out Saddam's orders to kill babies, rape women, and kill anyone who says anything bad about Saddam.

They have their own minds, they can choose to surrender or not carrie out his orders. These are the same group of people who came up w/ the idea to have proffesional rapists to spread fear about Saddam or cut peoples' toungs out who spoke negatively about him.
Oh, I feel so sorry for these low life scumbags. If they want to fight a suicide mission, fine. Let them die- they deserve to for killing all the people they have for Saddam in the past years.

So quick to forgive the murderers and rapists, so hesitant to understand reason. They weren't forced into anything- they had a choice, the world gave them 12 years to disarm, their choice was no, they would rather die in a hopeless war. I am glad you side w/ murderers and people who torture and rape for hobbies. What a great person you are for this.

But those damn bastard Americans, who do they think they are trying to free a population so afraid they can't even say what they think without losing bodyparts. Who do they think they are- thay should loose this war----do you realize how stupid this sounds and how no matter what you say you cannot possibly rationalize this train of thought? Maybe if you weren't lied to in your decieving newspapers and slanted television news. That is the only reason I can think of to want the coalition to loose this war. And then you defend the 33 percent who are comletely lost. Unbelievable. I bet you yourself want the coalition to lose the war, don't you?

Falstaff

But clearly I sit squarely on the side of the Coalition...
If I were a Warmonger..perhaps I would try to impress Syria, or Iran, or even the N. Koreans...
But I am not, and it's absolutely foolish to assume that we will go there anytime soon.
I am not a peacenik....or IRAQ would still be ruled by a Tyrant...
I work for a living, and I don't have time to wave a flag in protest against the very country or administration that sent our brave men and women to Afghanistan and Iraq to die...
I pay taxes and work hard, I am not a Hollywood elitist, or believe that they make any difference in national policy and politics..
I am an American, a very proud American..and my family has made sacrifices for our country, and I am not embittered...I am "euphoric" about the recent change of power in IRAQ...
I will continue to however, respect the rights of American citizens to believe in any damn thing they want to, as long as they remain faithful to the Flag, the country and the struggle to remain free as my government gets more complicated, more people flood our borders and apply for citizenship...

I don't care what country anyone comes from and where they want to be...

America is great, and If I had the power, I would do anything I could to keep it that way...

Freedom is not free right, warmonger or peacenik, we all gotta make sacrifices, unless you do, you can't understand why I feel so proud of my country......

so enough of these insults already...I gotta question for yall, what makes your country great, where ever your from? It would be a boost to hear what makes your country as good as or better than the USA...

raid517

Well that's just it Jeff, people find Americans arrogant and boastful. Most people are too modest to go shouting their mouths off about how great their coutries are. The UK had its day doing this too. Eventually we too were proved wrong. If you want to know what I think makes my country great I would say that above all it is the caring and compassion of ordinary people. Mind you there is the small benefit of having invented half the modern world in our time and having exported culture, art, science, lterature, poetry and education to some of the farthest corners of the world and having always stood on the side of right an fairness and justice for hundreds of years... But then you draw me into your trap jeff... Really I don't think my country is any better or any worse than any other country. What a lot of Americans seem to think is that because they have a big military that is what makes them 'great'. But if that is all that defines 'greatness' then Hitler's Germany, the Romans and the Greeks all thought this too. They also were all in time shown to be misguided. As soon as we stop all this 'I'm better than you' crap, maybe, just maybe this world could start to get along again. Boasting on international message boards is unlikely to aid this process.

Q

Falstaff

I wont argue that Americans take the power of their military and extoll their victories, even in the worst times, Americans remain proudly behind their military. We suffered through a civil war and learned a great deal about suffering, Our country isn't as old as the classic civilizations or those that came before it in Egypt or Mesopotamia, Asia, etc..but surely we have learned much from history, that is why we stumble and occasionally fall, but we get back up and keep going, right or wrong, our success is unquestionable whether boasting appears to be misguided or not. But I see now that the world is changing. Afghanistan, Kuwait, Iraq, Somalia, our foreign policy evolves, and we make mistakes, i.e. Hussein, Shah of Iran, etc..
But Americans possess a genuine sense of adventure as well as any other country..
Our adventures take us the edge of tolerance worldwide perhaps.
And perhaps the greatest adventure now is becoming stronger.
We aren't as divided as we seem ideologically or politically.
Our greatest strength is also a weakness.
And a lack of introspection.

raid517

Will milirary power alone doesn't define greatness. That's what Saddam though - and look what happend to him.

I raed a survay recently in which 60% of Americans questioned believed that God had a particularly special place for them in his heart.

From any sane perspective that is arrogant self loving twaddle. The Brits used to say exactly the same thing to, that, 'if there was a God surely he would be English'.

All it is is a nation drunk on their own power and nuturing an overblown sense of self importance. At least you wouldn't be the first major power to delude themselves that they had 'God
on their side.' Nationaliism, patriotism and religeous fervour are all claasic ellements of a superpower at its zenith.

Q

Falstaff

No, iron will and terror, that is what Saddam believed in, he was a Stalinist, and Stalin never trusted the military, niether did Saddam..

I don't doubt that, Americans are spiritual no matter what their higher power is. but christians know that God doesn't see americans or arabs or jews or friend or foe, just believers, pious and faithful. We are judged one day regardless of what our color, race, creed, country of origin or who we fought for..

Ah yes, Henry the V, I remember it well, Americans go into war with faith, and pray for deliverence whether they live or die. But the draw courage and inspiration from the well of faith..

Perhaps, perhaps not, drunk on power, not me, or my friends, or collegues, or family, if anything we are skeptical in the press as well. We have found the nest of vipers, and killed many within the walls of Babylon, but many more wait, and some are among us. Even religious programming, which I watch for coverage as well, express caution, deliberate caution in the times to come. Christians see the fulfillment of prophecy, as well as Muslims, and even within the Mayan religion...some see the year 2025 as a turning point in the world...My christian upbring has forseen these times, literal or not, I have my faith, and watch cautiously and prepare...I don't doubt that we are not the only power that is greater than the sum of its parts...Surely we will see the re-emergence of Syria and Russia as partners again...Gog and Magog. But I digress....