eyeguy616

Sorry to intervein in such heated territory, but do any of ya'll read Opinion Journal? It's pretty much a free Wall Street Journal since it actually uses some of their staff. They've written very articulate articles on the war, using real Iraqies for the basis of some info. There's one about Saddam's hired rapists, in which they interviewed a man whose wife (I think, maybe daughter) was raped in front of him while a gun was to his head. Tell me how that's a good way to rule an impoverished people? I don't think ANYONE would just accept the gov raping the girls/women in their community. I don't see how that could even BE a custom, like how the Natives of America had sacrifices. They were only able to do that because the people governed BELIEVED it brought them good fortune and were not opposed until they were conquered by Spain.

Also, bluelight, I in no way advocate bashing of people against the war or even other countries (slow down BWX232/bluelight, show your sides calmly). I don't think ANYONE can truly have all the information they need to justify any sort of action, but sometimes measures must be taken in order for certain outcomes to exist. World War II is always a good example: after the Great War (WWI) Germany is slammed with depression since it is forced to pay the nation it went to war with for reconstruction. This allowed Hitler to rise up and take power, because he was able to rally his people in support of Germany so that it could once again be a great nation. His twisted brilliance in his rousing outdoor speeches mesmorized everyone, and thus the Nazis came to power. The League of Nations, which the U.S. was not a part of, did nothing as Germany took nation after nation and eventually conquering Europe, except for Great Britian. The U.S. could have entered the war and were contemplating on it until Japanese bombers devasted Pearl Harbor. The point of this little history lesson is that we are in a position to do something before the situation goes out of hand. Simply doing nothing would have meant that we would just accept that Pearl Harbor was blown up, but we can't. We can't accept that as a given, we have to do something to ensure the safety of our people. We had to join that war so that the people of Europe (France included) could be free as sovereign nations and merchants.

Now, in this time, there is much that has to be done to ensure that people have certain basic, unalienable rights, and to root out those who would destroy such freedoms. I personally am against some of the acts that are getting passed here (Patriot Act offspring and DMCA/UCITA come to mind), but not enough people really know how bad some of these Acts are to us as a free people (congressmen come to mind....).

Anyway, if anyone has some ideas, type them out in a civilized manner, 'cause it'll make you seem more intellegent when it's typed formally.
~eyeguy616

EDIT: That thing I said at the top about the man whose wife/daughter was raped... I was a little fuzzy about the exact details, but I just remember who they interviewed - it was a guard who had to keep an eye on these things! He witnessed dozens of rapes or slaughterings. And grizzly slaughterings too, like people fed feet first into a plastic shredding machine so that they know what pain feels like before they die. Terrible, just terrible.....

raid517

Well I'm afraid I'm going to have to skip everything that's gone before, as i've been busy and haven't been following things. But my message, or more of a question to TC is how is peace in the Middle East served by removing Saddam Hussein from power? Not just how justice is served in Iraq. Don't forget, if most Iraqi's could choose who they wanted to dispense justice America and the West in general might well come significantly below Saddam Hussein. I think a lot of people underestimate the level of hatred a lot of Arabs feel for America.

But as I have said before the atni-war position is pretty much moot now. What will be significant is what happens afterwards when all of this is over. Blair's price for participation in this war was a role for the international community in the rebuilding of Iraq and progess on a road map towards peace between Israel and the Palistinians. If he gets the second of these then this whole thing will have proved ultimately worthwhile. But I remain supicious and doubtful that this will be the case. I fear ultimately all of Bush's promises in this regard will prove empty and that the world will decend into a constant cycle of war and terror. If that is the end result, then this adventure will prove an unmitigated disater. Only time will tell which it is to be.

Q

(Not to mention that we have still to find any WMD yet. Let's hope that happens soon...)

Falstaff

Saddam is either dead or his power is gone...

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radTube

You keep saying this over and over as if it held any thruth at all. In which way are you more free than a citizen of Sweden is? I'm pretty sure it's the other way around, especially due to the insane laws the US has been passing lately. I've asked this at least twice before (you're not the only american having such illusions about their freedom) but I'm still to get an answer.

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Falstaff

Radtube,
the orginal question is this forum is flawed from my perspective, more provacative than anything, it has fostered some reactionist posts in this thread, ha ha..
I like the Finnish people, and Scandinavians in general, from what I know the goal of Finnish development cooperation work is to foster the human resources and independent capability of the receiving countries. Both bilaterally and multilaterally within the EU and other bodies, the political objectives of Finnish development cooperation are to promote equality, democracy and human rights, and demand that these, as well as environmental considerations, are respected. These then are the basic tenets of Finnish foreign policy. Correct me if I am wrong, but they have managed to preserve their borders through several wars, I admire their pluck. some of their writers, well.......need more sunlight, ha ha...
What contribution do you thinkt he Finns could make in reshaping IRAQ, or is that relevant?

BWX

Ok, I will let you tell me- Can you buy a gun and shoot it in your backyard or when somebody tries to break in your house? Maybe you can, and if so that is great, but many countries don't allow gun ownership. That is one freedom I know that is important to many people. Another is money- how much are you taxed on every dollar you earn? I have a feeling it might be way higher than what I have to pay. My point was that Bin laden did not "crush democracy" as was stated by good ol' bluelight, I am as free as I was before 9/11. I think more than anything I am free to think what I want, not lead aroung be the nose by what the government "lets" me think. I know everyone from around the world thinks we are brainwashed or something- that is complete nonsense, I still think US citizens have the most personal freedoms of any body in any country. That is what our country was founded on- freedom and liberty. I am not as "free" as my grandfather was, and it is bullshit, but I still have the constitution. That is something people died for, something that people from all over the world want to come to America and become a citizen for- to be free under the constitution. You just can't argue with that. I think the world would be a better place if all countries gave freedom too their citizens, but obviously some people are to afraid to fight for it.

This is what I was refering to :

[color=yellow]quote: Originally posted by bluelight
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Id say....Bin Laden got what he wanted...He crushed democracy to a large amount.He introduced fear as a daily ingredient in American life..He managed to create two wars between "the unfaithful"
He managed to split the opinions among the western democracies....
And you are actually giving it to him for free...You r government does all it can to feed the fear..muck like4 they did in the fifties with "communists"...Sometimes it seems you ...must....have an outside threat to measure with...
Yeah..id say he got what he wanted..and we havent seen the end of it.[/color]

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bluelight

Originally posted by BWX232


Ok, I will let you tell me- Can you buy a gun and shoot it in your backyard or when somebody tries to break in your house?


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No but it was perfectly alright for your nation to see to it that Saddam got into power in 58.It was obviously perfectly alright for your nation to support his war (where HE was the agressor) that killed about 3 million people some of them with nervegas.

It was obviously perfectly ok for you to continue supporting him when it was official what the Iranians had said for several years:SADDAM IS USING NERVEGAS....It was perfectly ok to continue supporting him for three years after he had killed 5000 civilians with nervegas in the village of Halabaja using heliucopters YOU had supplied him with.

It was even ok to continue supporting him after this event ..ALTHOUGH..your senate after having been informed about it took a descision of NOT suporting him due to his violations against international law...

You government at the time...said..fuck you senate...and continued the support up until the start of the Kuwait war.


Very clear indications also show (interwiews with you amabassador at the time in Iraq April Glaspie) that Usa knew about Saddams plans to occupie Kuwait but..that they only expected him to take a very small part and were prepared to accept this until they realised he had fooled them and was to take all of Kuwait.


These are just examples of your governments involvement in Iraq...there are loads of others.Vietnam is one.Chile where the Cia killed the military commander of a free democratic nation and thus started the take over by a dictatorship that would last for years and initilly kill 3500 people and send tens of thousands as political refugees to Europe is another.

You also...live in a nation that did not get rid of nazi like racial laws until the middle of the sixties.


Until one of you stands up and say...yes we fucked up on a lot of occasions but...things have changed and we are serious about what we do......instead of the continual whining about how free you are and how goood your intents are then...and only then am i prepared to stand up and say...ok lets see then...i believe your intents..

BUT...as long as you deny this garbage of yours as something...necessary...then you will have no support from me.

And...freedom....we all have different ideas of what that means...i dont share yours.

A nation with laws similar to the Patriot act and the upcoming continuation of it..has not got freedom.

And yes...In that Bin Laden has succeded since his goal is to spread ...fear and division among people..and ultimatly by doing so start a full sclale war between the muslim and the christian world.Which is his ultimate goal.



By cutting down freedom of speech and by limiting peoples rights...he gets exactly what he wants.

By not accepting the UN as the way to handle internatinal conflicts he also hets what he wants.

He wants Usa to be the "Agressor".It is perfect for him since he wants all muslims to look upon Usa as such.


It would...have been much better if the UN had handled the issues in Iraq.Last time 17 muslim nations were part of the coalition.How many are there today officiclly taking part?

Hows that for credibility?

Bluelight

radTube

Ok, lets start by arguing with the unarguable. You do have a great constitution, but what good is it if your government keeps passing laws that are against it? 'Nuff said about that I think. And as for having the right to own and use lethal weapons, I happen to see it as something undesirable. Are guns really the first thing that pop into your mind when you hear the words 'human rights'?

I don't currently pay virtually any taxes at all either as I'm still studying (until the end of this year) and I don't have much income. You're still to find one point that indicates your greater freedom.

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BWX

So when I say I have a certain freedom that you DO NOT have, when you say you have just as many freedoms as me-- you say "I happen to see it as something undesirable." and "Are guns really the first thing that pop into your mind when you hear the words 'human rights'?"-- So your answer to my point about having more freedom than you is basically, "I don't want those freedoms anyway" or "they are undesirable freedoms"

So when I respond to this statement by you "You keep saying this over and over as if it held any thruth at all. In which way are you more free than a citizen of Sweden is?"
and OFF THE TOP of my head in 2 seconds I guess think of a few and then tell you about them, you say oh, I don't have those freedoms, but I don't want those freedoms anyway.
Just what your government WANTS you to say.

LOL- Can you day denial???
I am sure if I speant some time I could tell you about many more- but from what I have heard you will just say "I don't want those certain freedoms anyway so it doesn't count" Basically that is your stance, even though you jump to say I am wrong instantly.


Ok, so if you are a student, do they teach you how much you will get taxed when you go to work? If not it isn't a very good educational system. So why don't you tell me what the percentage is? Is it that you don't know? Or is it that it iis easier to say you are a student and don't pay yet so there is no possible way for you to know?


"You're still to find one point that indicates your greater freedom" No- you just fail to see it right in front of your face. I mentioned 3 off the top of my head. But you say I didn't say anything. How do you argue with someone who denies what is right in front of them?

BWX

Haha, what a bunch of BULL- It is funny YOU don't support us but I see hundreds of IRAQI's right NOW as I type this in the middle of IRAQ that are holding up the American flag and CHEERING as they help a tank pull down a Saddam Statue!!!!! HA- lol you don't support the US, but the Iraqi people are dancing in the streets!!!

Are you mad because we are winning and Saddam is losing? It sounds that way to me!

Oh, now I am whining about my freedom? Did I touch a nerve? I don't care If you support me and my freedoms or not. You are the one that runs away from questions. You are the one acting shady.

radTube

Hmm... where should I start...

Ok, lets take the gun thing. I didn't say it was a freedom I didn't want. I said I don't see it as a freedom at all.

And taxes, no, I don't know the exact percentage. It's based on the amount of income and I have no way of knowing how much money I'm going to make next year. You tell me your exact percentage if you think that it is in any way relevant to the debate. I've never heard of 'the freedom not to pay a lot of taxes'. I wouldn't be surprised if Finland has higher average tax percentages than a lot of other countries, but I'm free to move elsewhere, am I not?

So thats two... If I undestood correctly, the third freedom you mentioned was the freedom to 'think what you want'. Hell yes I can think what I want. I can even go to the local library and read anything at all without risking being put to a concentration camp in Cuba. I also have the freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and so on and so on...

This is going nowhere I'm afraid.

Oh so true...

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BWX

The third was the constitition (or first)- but still you say this:

QUOTE BY RAD:"You're still to find one point that indicates your greater freedom."

This is after you say we have the constitution and RIGHT to bear arms. Comparitively lower taxes are more a product of our system of government, but the Dems are trying to raise them all the time.
So I did find more than one point and you still say I didn't, see? Why argue more when even the first 3 points are in denial by you as I you can plainly see.

Oh, and you don't think the right to bear arms is a right? How so?
And the constitution gives me hundreds of rights you don't have. So how can you just agree that I have it and you don't and then say "oh, you haven't come up with one thing"?

Then you say
quote:

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Originally posted by BWX232
How do you argue with someone who denies what is right in front of them?
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Oh so true...

Meaning I don't see something I take it. How can I make it any more clear without insulting your intelligence? I could say some pretty nasty things about you not seeing what I have just laid out in plain English but I won't.
Should I draw a picture? A graph? I am a pretty good artist.

radTube

First, learn the difference between a right and a freedom. Then stop pulling things like 'the constitution gives me hundreds of rights you don't have' out of your ass and try give something to support these ridiculous claims. You say I don't understand what you're saying and to me it seems you're the one having difficulties. Have you considered that someone not buying into something you say might be because they disagree, not because they're not capable of understanding?

You say the third was the constitution. Heh, does that deserve an answer? You mean to say that the USA is the only country with constitutional laws? And you call the constitution a freedom? ...learn to read the questions before you answer!

Go ahead and draw a picture if it helps you vent some pressure. I'm sure you could some day actually contribute to some of these debates if you didn't limit your posts to those baseless 'opinions' of yours. I see you've adopted the 'annoy the hell out of them so they'll get frustrated and leave and I can feel good about myself' -tactique but it's not effective in the long run, believe me. And it will not make you any friends either...

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Falstaff

Even a first year law student knows that the Constitution is just a piece of paper without Americans to uphold and protect it..
It constantly evolves, perhaps slowly, but it does..

But I think that Tocqueville and Jefferson would turn over in their graves if they saw it now...

but it exists, we use it, study it and defend it..

I would ask that anyone offering a perspective on the U.S. Constitution should understand it...

Perhaps it might make it easier to understand the tremendous undertaking that will occur in IRAQ...
assuming they want "democracy"

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitut....overview.html