ToshiroOC

There is a very simple question that I would like to pose to y'all.

How will leaving Saddam Hussein in power promote peace and justice in Iraq?

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[color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color]
Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

GOG

And I will answer again. It's none of US business if there is peace or justice in Iraq.

BWX

It is when he supports international terrorists.
I think we "made" it our business- you ever hear that expression?

Anyway to this question.:
"here is a very simple question that I would like to pose to y'all.

How will leaving Saddam Hussein in power promote peace and justice in Iraq?"

It won't, maybe I misunderstood the question, but what exactly do you mean? Did someone say leaving him in power WOULD promote peace? Maybe you could tell me what you mean.

ToshiroOC

BWX232, it's a question that I'm asking to anyone who believes that the US should not be attacking Iraq. To GOG, I say that power comes with responsibility, and in the case of the US, we have a lot of military power, so it is our responsibility to humanity to use our military power for the general good, in this case, the good of the average citizen of Iraq.

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[color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color]
Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

GOG

I would have bought that if it came from someone else, unfortunately a lot of dealing with other dictators and scum has made it possible for you to stay in that position.

GOG

Maybe you should ask yourselves why they are flying into buildings in New York but not in Moscow? Can it be because of the fact that you repeatedly "make things your business"?

The "evidence" of that he supports terrorists was revoked by most of the world, that's why you started this war by your own.

ToshiroOC

I hold a pro-war stance at the moment, but I disagree with the current administration strongly on many things. I think that dealing with ANY dictators or war criminals like Kim Jong Il is utterly unacceptable, and that the proper solution is to invade and set up a democratic provisional government, completely removing the corrupt and oppressive upper levels of their current government.

I think that this war in Iraq does strive towards the right goals even if there are potential disappointing ulterior motives such as "oil" or "war or terrorism", and that it is simply the first correct step towards a more peaceful and just world.

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[color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color]
Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

bluelight

iI suggest you read this link......posted by Jeff Jeffs link ...most of the lives sacrificed in Iraq were actually sanctioned by your government.....since you supported the war against Iran in which died tens of thousands Iraq`i soldiers and civilians.Not mentioning the Iranians...who some of them were gased to death.

Now ..if you consider this first and then ..you explain to me..how Iraq`i people and other muslim nations could ever believe you in your intents?

The one way..which is difficult enough....is to have a coalition that consists of many nations ..including muslim nations..(like last time)...this would have given the operation a much bigger chance in the long run.

Your conservative elite with Wolfwitz Rumsfeld Cheney in leading roles..sees America as an empire and has dedided to make the world look uopn you as such...

Well i dont like what i see....and im not alone.I want America to be the land of free thought and strive for global progress that i learned as a kid that it was.

Today it is slowly turning itself into a police state with the introduction of the different versions of Patriot act..


Id say....Bin Laden got what he wanted...He crushed democracy to a large amount.He introduced fear as a daily ingredient in American life..He managed to create two wars between "the unfaithful" (and to which your president replies in the same manner as Bin laden..by saying..God has given me a mission....)
He managed to split the opinions among the western democracies....

And you are actually giving it to him for free...You r government does all it can to feed the fear..muck like4 they did in the fifties with "communists"...Sometimes it seems you ...must....have an outside threat to measure with...

Democracy only dies if one lets it...The Patriot act..is letting it....


Yeah..id say he got what he wanted..and we havent seen the end of it.

Just wait until when Israel will refuse to follow the roadmap to peace..laid out by the superpowers...

There is no other way...than internatinal collaboration..and such can never be dictated by one part as have been the case now.

Get rid of your government.Vote in people that live in this world..and not in 1833.





Bluelight

BWX

No, you are ignorant to the fact that they hate us because of our freedom and power, regardless what we make our business. Maybe the reason Moskow didn't gat attacked by terrorists is because the terrorist like doing business w/ that country. Did you ever think of that? Why do you think Russia and France were against the war? Yes, because they supported Saddam the entire time, did business w/ him and supported his regime.

And we obviously aren't the only country being attacked by these low life terrorists, so why are all the other countries getting attacked? Is it their own fault too? Did you not see the reports that Saddam paid 25,000 dollars to the families of suicide bombers? Or will you deny that like you do ALL the rest of the facts surrounding his regime?
Actually you sound like you support terrorism, do you? Coming from a country that is supposedly "neutral", you sure sound like you sure are on Saddam's, the taliban's, and all the other terrorist's side.

I guess we will just have to keep killing all the terrorists like the human trash they are, and you and people like you will blame the terrorist's choice to murder people for no reason on the US. Actually it sounds like you would be a great candidate to go join a terrorist cell, you say the exact same things they say, very interesting.

You have a lot to say for someone with absolutely NO facts to back up your claims. Huh, you can't even answer Tirosho's question! You just keep spewing anti-American statements, that is all you know.

BWX

No, you are wrong- Bin laden did nothing but put a nail in his own coffin and that of the taliban's by being a coward and flying planes into buildings.

then you say this "He crushed democracy to a large amount"- You have no idea what you are talking about- I cannot believe the complete ignorance in the world. The funny thing is that I think you actually believe these crazy ideas that the largly slanted media puts into your heads.

Bin laden unleashed the dogs of war, that's all. Now he lives in a cave. He in NO WAY crushed democracy. You are delusional. LOL
If he crushed our way of life so much, why do I as a US citizen, have more freedom than you will ever have. Why, I ask you- If Bin Laden crushed my way of life. You are so wrong, so ignorant, so misguided about my country. Come here and live for a few years and you will know the truth. I am not spoon fed everything my government wants me to know, I have freedom to think however I want. Something most people in the middle east do not have.

QUOTE BY YOU: " Yeah..id say he got what he wanted..and we havent seen the end of it." It sounds to me like you are happy about that. Hmm, all these people arguing that the US is so wrong and all they can do is support the terrorists and talk like they are some kind of heros or like thet accomplished something. What kind of screwed up people support terrorism and bash freedom?

bluelight

I will reply to BWX later..First...


The Issue is NOT...

If Saddam is to be removed...

The issue is by

WHO??


Bluelight

bluelight

Who is screwed up around here?


I take it you are joking....

You claim that i support terrorism and that i am "screwed up".......................



Well....why should......i answer your post??!!


I will not...



The land of the free...

Why Saddam..became what he did...

You...have more freedom than me? Yeah...right...


Bluelight

BWX

Ok, drive by comment-

You answer your own question then. You won't answer any of mine.

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BWX

You will not, whatever- you can not more like it. All you know how to do is make anti-American statements and run away- typical

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bluelight

Well since you insult me you get nothing in return.Had this not been a public forum and i stick to the rules id had done the same to you.


Reade my links and then tell me why any muslim anywhere should have confidence in you.Also tell me who helped Saddam into power.

My links are my answer.

You cant deny them as propaganda since they both are accurate.

Bluelight

GOG

bluelight

Yeah ..and as usual it is ok to refer to other people as screwed up...

Well ...this type of american......is one that the world has seen ...more than enough of.


Bluelight

merry

Which are the criteria on which candidate regimes are elligible for invasion or not, what makes one a competent judge to decide that, what are the possible ways to avoid abuse by stronger nations?

This would be the principial argument, on the practical level an invading force will incite patriotic feeling in the invaded country, Hitler found that out when he invaded the USSR at a time Stalin was most feared and hated, and it's Stalin who survived WWII. Hence, a lot of oppressed people, people who would have thought themselves as antagonic to the regime in question, would find themselves fighting on the "wrong" side - oh, who is competent to decide which side is right?

Finally, the replacement of such a regime will leave the chair empty. A leader becomes a dictator if he has no in-country oposition, and this is done by intimidating/eliminating it. After 20 years, generations have changed and there is practically no-one left to assume leadership, no-one both credible and competent. In Eastern Europe, countries that had less oposition to the comunist regimes (whatever the reasons) lag behind the other ones to date. Building a democracy is a long term process.

could be a war? An invasion? An old soviet slogan said something like "we will fight for peace to the last man standing" (literally: until no stone sits on top of another).

Yes, but the word vigilante also comes to mind.

What is the "general good"? Each culture has it's own definition, and they're not the same. The Aztecs had human sacrifice, was the Conquista justified?

*************

To me, the answer to all that is defining an international organization - there is the UN, ok so if the US is not happy with the way it works, reform it. I'm not saying it's easy, but I think it's feasible, and it won't make everybody happy at all times, but then what does?

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There is a war between the ones who say there is a war
and the ones who say there isn't.
~~Leonard Cohen

The_Neon_Cowboy

Then it's none of your buisness to say anything about it

let me know when the sweedes in genral get that big yellow streak off thier backs enough to enter awar I might listen. What about all these conties makeing it thier buissness what were doing now makeing it thier bussiness fine as long as your county does it nice double standards. Mr. neutral county

Wich county USA or Russia is better of finacially/quility of life/ $$$/ etc.. hmm? while these live in poverty in opressed severly underdevloped countries.... I think that is a more magor issue that need to be conqured but thats just my opinion. As for evadence we have lots truckloads now that the war is on. what do you call very large terroist training camps? they are not teaching how to make girl scout cookies thier teaching death and terror.

Hmm ... that was then this is now . the only constant in life i that all things change. I phrase that a diffrent way.." nations could ever believe you in your intents with all the rumors/lies/half truthes that float around there" what I mean is exactly this for exaple our news paperhead line (this is fictional but shows my point)" U.S. soldgers battle group of armed armd civillions". Then in the middle east the headline is "U.S slodgers gun down civilians" thats my point totaly difrent views of what happend. Thats what makes them not believe our intentins in my book.


"is to have a coalition that consists of many nations" Well there are driecly helping USA, British, Austrailia and with supporting positions for 37+ other contries some publicly and some in private is good enough. Such counrties help with things like intelligence Etc... the other nateions in the reagins are run by dictatorsships and see this as a threat to thier thrown of power so to speak. Thier afriad of what could come next. They down want freedoom, or freedom to think for that matter. The reason that reagion is so povwerished/ underdevloped is becouse of those dictators hordeing all the money. Education is badly nedded in thouse areas... especially the weomon... they are the most opressed in the reagon. no education. tought to be inferior of man. I thinks things will chage with the changes that are going on in afganistan and in iraq ... People know no better way of life once they get tastes of freedom it will be hard to contain it.

The Patriot act..is letting it ... yes it is and all we can do is write our reps and hope for the best. the patriot act is the worst pice of legaslation known to man.{ excecpt for the partriot act 2 thier trying to pass ... }

As for "binladen Bin Laden" geting what he wanted uless he wanted .. The his entire way of life to be changed and to raise a democracy in afganistan and to go agenst his belifes under the taliban. and put all terrorist under fine microscopes then yes he got what he wanted. He introduced fear? relly fear of what? I dont see alot of fear now all the fear is overseas in your countries... AS FOR YOUR STATEMANT "God has given me a mission" I guess you forgoten that the constution we live under and founded our nation is base on religious belifes!!!

"Get rid of your government.Vote in people that live in this world..and not in 1833" I dont get your point could you please clarify for me...


there terrorist attacks in most if not all contries around the world includeing russia and france not just he US. But yea I think some of thises contires AID alot of these groups in one way or another. It's just the U.S. is fianally doing something about it.

The U.S. you act like the question is up in the air......


Wow more sorie from anti war/ anti USA protester websites who would of ever guessed...
feating storys like .. this is from thier frount pages

-------------------
The Real Face of War
Maria Tomchick, AlterNet
Iraqi children are being slaughtered at checkpoints and in 'kill boxes' while young soldiers face a lifetime of asking themselves why.

But soon after the war started, U.S. military planners set up "kill boxes" in the region south of Baghdad, a largely rural area, where Zambrania and several other villages lie. Kill boxes were used in Afghanistan; they're grid-like areas on the military planners' maps that are designated as free-fire zones. U.S. fighter pilots are allowed to shoot anything that moves within these zones. But, just as in Afghanistan, there is no way that civilians on the ground can know when they've entered a kill box until a bomb falls on them.


Ibrahim and his 17-year-old cousin, Jalal, left home to have lunch with Abdullah, a friend who owned the neighboring farm. They were torn apart by a U.S. bomb because they were outside, walking, and a kill box had been superimposed over their home.
----------------


True or Not this is the kind of bull that makes people think ill of the us... saying we knowing sluoghter weomon and childern. It's clearly a pro saddam / antwar protester site.... yes it has some other news bu doesnt take ten seconds to see what thier storys are really about.

your makeing your self look bad.... as for the anti U.S. stuff that is common the weaker minded in genral. its scary to think an adverage iq is only 70 considering i scored 140 myself thats scary. I dont even really think of myself as smart I just know alot. Who fall pray to any website posting news ... My point in that is I could start a website about atroictys in sweden and france and make evey story up and there would be someone the belives every word.

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Falstaff

People in uniform and those that must endure, all suffer and die. Some immediately, some a little everyday. I hear the theme over and over again. War is a crime, this war is a crime against humanity, so be it. This crime, to whom it may concern, will be over soon. But another crime, commited by Hussein, has been going on alot longer...Which is the greater crime? Tyranny for years and years...or this brief and decisive event.."It is the evil of two lessers". I fought in the first gulf war, I am no criminal, I fired weapons at my enemy. I came home and celebrated the good fortune of having been on the winning side..I believe after all of this is over, the IRAQI people will be celebrating the good fortune of being on the winning side..We are not going to line them up and shoot them, as their government did. If they throw rocks at us, we will give them food and water, As they curse us, we will patiently do what we have to do and leave..Journalists will spin it this way and that. Imposing thiier ideology upon those that read their version of the truth...But the truth of war is evidently clear, whether anyone believes it is just or not. Saddam is gone from power, his country now has a chance to rise up like a phoenix from the ashes. Regardless of what is shown on television, I believe Americans that quietly go about their lives and pray for their children and friends and parents to come home..are the majority, not he minority here..So let them say what they want now, the greatest struggle will happen in the coming months after the war is over.

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radTube

Haha, exactly where is an iq of 70 anywhere near average? In your neighbourhood? According to this page at an internet psychology "classroom" a score of 70 would be barely in the "Borderline Mental Retardation" range. 90 - 109 would be average.

There's no chance in hell that any of these 'do-it-yourself' iq-tests could give reliable results. Personally I find it improbable that something as abstract and multidimensional as human intelligence can ever be measured reliably. (And no I never got a low score in one of those tests. I've even done a couple of real ones, you know with professionals checking the results and so on.)

Sorry for going just a tad off topic. Just couldn't resist .

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The_Neon_Cowboy

"All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men [and women] to do nothing"

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bluelight

Neon....................................It is of no importance whatsoever where the links go...They are both facts:

In the case of Cia and Saddam....It is very clear for anyone who READS the document(which im sure you have not) that the information comes from several different sources most of them publicly available American ones.

When it comes to Patriot act 2...then that is a proposal made by people close or within you government.


You also say......That was then.......

Do you seriously believe that history is of no relevance??

If so can you explain how that can be??

Bluelight

bluelight

Qoute...Neon

The Patriot act..is letting it ... yes it is and all we can do is write our reps and hope for the best. the patriot act is the worst pice of legaslation known to man.{ excecpt for the partriot act 2 thier trying to pass ... }




Well...Then you are beginning to understand.......

Vote them out...before it is too late.


Bluelight

BWX

Well all I hear out of gog and bluelight is America - bashing and pro-Saddam pro-terrorism. Whenever I call them out on those points they say something anti-American and dodge the questions. It is because they can't answer the questions.

-I asked bluelight this----->"If he crushed our way of life so much, why do I as a US citizen, have more freedom than you will ever have"
- and he answers this----->"Well....why should......i answer your post??!! I will not..."

-I ask him this about the first response----->"You will not, whatever- you can not more like it. All you know how to do is make anti-American statements and run away- typical "
-and he answers this----->"Yeah ..and as usual it is ok to refer to other people as screwed up...

Well ...this type of american......is one that the world has seen ...more than enough of."

when I was talking about people that support terrorism as being screwed up. I asked bluelight AND gog if they support terrorism and Saddam and they WILL NOT answer the question!!!!!

I think that makes THEM look bad. They sound like they support terrorism and when asked they will not deny it!! VERY interesting......

So you guys-- bluelight and gog, tell me, YES or NO, do you want Saddam to win the war, and the US to lose the war?

YES or NO, are you happy when Bin Laden or some other terrorist commits a terrorist attack on the US?

YES or NO, do you think Bin Laden and these other terrorist groups have a reason to commit terrorist attacks?

YES or NO, do you think the US DESERVES terrorist attacks?

Yes or NO, do you think Saddam should be taken from power? And if not be the US then by whome?

Lets see you answer these questions without dodging the questions and spouting a bunch of America bashing.

Let's see- you will either say "I will not answer" or go off on some tangent about how bad the US is. I dare you to answer these questions, we will see what you really think. From all I see so far you support terrorism and agree with it and are happy when it happens and feel the terrorist have a right to do it. I also hear from you guys that Saddam should not be taken from power by the US.

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bluelight

Maybe you are screwed up as you said i was but im not replying you as long as you post bollocks like this.


What i want you to do first before you post garbage like this is go find one single qoute anywhere on this board where i am supporting terrorism...or Saddam Hussein.

You are claiming that i support terrorism which is a pretty weird assumtion so you best find something with REAL substance and not some fantasy product from your imagination.

You do that first...and then we will see......


Bluelight

BWX

Exactly as I said- refuse to answer ANY of the questions. Why are you afraid to answer the questions? I will answer them, I am sure many people would have no problem answering them.


So you guys-- bluelight and gog, tell me, YES or NO, do you want Saddam to win the war, and the US to lose the war? my answer: No , I weant Saddam to lose, the US to win.

YES or NO, are you happy when Bin Laden or some other terrorist commits a terrorist attack on the US?
My answer: NO

YES or NO, do you think Bin Laden and these other terrorist groups have a reason to commit terrorist attacks?
My answer:NO

YES or NO, do you think the US DESERVES terrorist attacks?
Mty answer: NO

Yes or NO, do you think Saddam should be taken from power? And if not be the US then by whome?
My answer: Yes, by the US or a coalition of the WILLING

Lets see you answer these questions without dodging the questions and spouting a bunch of America bashing.


Just as I said- you would be too embarrased to answer these very simple questions. Now I know I was right. If you continue to America bash and defend Saddam and terrorist regimes from responsibility I will know you haven't got a leg to stand on with your arguments. Thank you for proving my point, when the questions get tough, the true feelings come out. Very Interesting you refuse to answer some very simple questions. If I give you examples of what you asked, you will just argue that you didn't mean what you said, so no I will not humor your requests. Just answer the questions and stop dodging them if you want any credibility in your arguments.

bluelight

Cut it off will you......

This is the last time im answering you...first you insult me by saying im screwed up...then you accuse me twice of supporting Saddam Hussein ...and.....terrorism...


You must be bloody joking. Either you find a qoute where i am claiming i support terrorism...or you can consider yourself finsihed talking to me.

Bluelight

BWX

NO, I am not joking---

I said people who support terrorism against the US are screwed up, unless you fall under that catagory, I was not referring to you.

As I said, you will not answer the question, you are just mad that I asked it!

You still won't say that you don't support saddam and terrorism, why is that so hard for you to do?

Call it whatever you want, don't talk to me anymore, I could care less. You are the one America (or any free western country) Bashing and I am the one calling you out on it. You run away from the questions and tell me the questions are rubbish and refuse to answer them. I will answer any questions you ask, why won't you do the same? Run away from them, I don't care. Don't expect to get away with your anti-American stance without some very easy questions being posed to you. Obviously you cannot answer them.

BWX

Actually I am asking you to clarify your views on these subjects- as I am asking gog also- I told you how I think what you have said in these threads makes me think you might support saddam's regime or terrorists attacking the US.