Maddogg6

In Bushes press conference - he mentioned forging ahead with more free trade pacts with S. American Countries (Panama, Columbia were mentioned specifically)

Theres obviously very little accountability in what comes into our country.
Theres the pet food from china - and now possibly tooth paste too...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18841928/

If it were US origin - this mess would be all cleared up by now - but working with China is proving be difficult, if not impossible to demand any accountability.

Maybe a class action law suit on the WTO is in order.??
And why aren't they stepping up in putting pressure on getting this cleared up - they orginize the Chineese treaty - then leave us out cold when shit hits the fan...wtf.

And now Bush pushing for S.American treaties too.
Whats next for us when free trade with countries that have a history of being ran by cartels and drugs being the #1 money making export.

I dont see free trade being good for ANYONE but the developing country (who offers exploitable labor), big business (ready to take advantage of that said labor) and politicians who most likely received $$$ for convincing Americans free trade is a good idea.

Or Am I missing some positive attribute to all this... please explain.

(cant say I love the idea of another communist country as a super power either in light of the events recently with poisoned products imported from there)

Judas

Free trade?

don't know, but the "free" trade that the US has been doing to canada is costing canada millions and not a dime for the US... just take a gander at the softwood lumber bullshit. and that's just one thing...

I'm all for free trade within reason.... under certain specific rules, and making damn sure everyone abides by them.

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Maddogg6

Oh great now canadians are turning anti-american too (j/k - sorta, I think... ) - I never heard about this, and it looks pretty complicated (I guess it has something to do with lumber being subsidized or something - I wont pretend to understand it all...??)

Who do we hold accountable in these matters - please don't say a 'world court' - thats just another layer of politics to profit from all this crap.

Is accountability no longer in fashion now?
(Bush & Sadam having WMD- oops, Chineese Import poison - oops, this complicated lumber deal you mention)
pfff wtf.

Ive never felt so much like a lowly peasant in all my life as I do now.

Zelig

A good summary of the softwood lumber disptue.

Free trade is good for everyone involved, provided that everyone follows the rules.

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Judas

i think the ones accountable should be held amongst themselfs, (in the lumber ordeal, it'd be canadian and american), but i also think that in the case of the long dispute, with nothing being done, that a neutral party should be brought to lay down the law one way or another, someone with zero influence among either side, Course this would be ideal, everyone seems to want to lean one way or another for whatever reasons unfortuneatly.

The lumber BS is just one of many fiascos, another would be how canada has screwed it's own farmers over even conceiveable dark place.... Even when the Free trade works in our favor, canada has turned it around, it works both ways i guess,

For example, if a farmer wish to sell it's produce, they should be able to sell it where ever, including across the boarder, right, this makes sense correct? Yet Canada has imposed some rediluious laws that have ended up nailing the farmers that had attempted to do this, eventually putting them out of business as they "didn't follow" the apparently unmentioned rules. wtf?

At which point, it's been discussed everywhere that someone should be shot

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Maddogg6

Yeah - I seen that - Im still a bit puzzled - as Im sure it involves understanding int'l trade law... (I mean, if Canada IS 'dumping' - then I see why its in dispute - But I also heard along time ago the Japaneese wre 'dumping' their cars in the US as well - but I don't think any countervailing duties were imposed on them - Toyota seems to be doing just fine...?? -

Again, I won't pretend to understand legal aspects about all this, except my perceptions (I'll admit *may* be way off) it sure seems few 'citizens' benefit as much as big business and politicians.

And, that last part (I bolded) requires accountability - which seems to be non-existent.

So - I'll re-clarify - IS it good? - not *can* it be good? Sounds like yet another example of why its bad - even for the US - if it created tensions with an otherwise friendly neighbor/nation - its not good for me in the long run.


OK - yet another example of how free trade has been used to screw innocent people.

Sounding more and more like, becuase there is no accountability - free trade is NOT good - for either sides 'citizens' now. - But sounds like the politicians are A OK with all this. huh? Bush is, at least, pushing to expand this idea into S.America too.

Judas

Well i think free trade is good yet, but the there seems to be political agendas and goverment control over specifics of what is considered to be freely traded or not. Imposing restrictions where the agreements made for free trade would normally allow it for no apparent reasons, or bills being made up and passed without a second thought when they harm either the partner to trade with OR themselves.

I think most of the issues are government oriented though.

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Maddogg6

Agreed, But, will we ever escape this reality - ??? People in power historically have had agendas and thus abused their powers.

My blood pressure could sure stand to hear an example of the 'good' right about now - lol - any examples?

Judas

... it's hard to find examples, as the only things we see in the media and available over the net usually is all the bads.. none of the goods.... just take into consideration that if you haven't heard anything bad about the free trade on any specific day, then apparently that day went well.

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temeteus82

Free trade = US will lift embargo against Cuba

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Maddogg6

hehe - the ol 'no news is good news' position.... I wonder if thats what got us here? - I keep trying to see the benefit *I* get from free trade with china.
PC componants maybe a little cheaper now - but at the cost of 8000 people loosing a beloved pet from poisoned food thats just whats been investigated, I have little doubt theres been other older pets that the owners just assumed were 'natural cause' - or could not afford to have an autopsy done on their pet.
And now (potentially, but its looking like a 'most likely') tooth paste.

Is saving a few extra bucks on a mobo and ram - worth it?

That wont happen till gitmo is closed/abandoned. - so, prolly never.

OmegaRED

Not a subject I'm well versed in but Free Trade has been bad for Canada so I'll infer the effects of free trade benefit countries with stronger economic and political power or countries with cheap labour.

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Zelig

Other than the softwood lumber mess, how has NAFTA, in general, been bad for Canada?

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OmegaRED

I don't specifically but the general feeling in Canada is that we get the short end of the stick in any trade agreements with The USA or Mexico. Aside from the lumber issue I believe fishing is also a large problem but I can't say I keep tabs on this sort of stuff (as the trade problems are east coast or west coast, I'm neither).

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Yousaif

A question was asked earlier: Is Free Trade good? Not *can* it be good, but is it good?

My answer to that question is that as soon as I see real free trade happen, I will be able to make a judgement on it. I would be more inclined to say the Fair Trade is a good thing, but even that is rare.

It could be a good thing, like if countries remove the import duties on American produce and other goods and make sure that they get inspected and moved through customs in a timely fashion. But, that said, there is protectionism going on in every corner of the world.

The EU puts tarriffs on goods that are produced outside of the EU to protect their own industries. Apparently the US is trying its best to protect lumber harvesting. Japan puts tarriffs on goods that come in from outside, all in the name of getting people to buy their own products.

I used to be a major free trade advocate. This would mean no tarriffs anywhere and letting the manufacturers compete for the sale. Unfortunately the markets aren't the same everywhere. Wages are different in different countries, which changes the cost of manufacturing a good. This gives third world and developing nations an edge when it comes to selling their goods.

Nowadays I am leaning a bit more towards a protectionist standpoint. I don't find it fair that countries put giant-sized tarriffs on the goods that my counrty produces then scream about it when we put the same tarriffs on theirs. I don't find it fair that my country is bleeding cash at an uproarious rate while countries that send their goods here are sucking it all up.

I know that no one said that life is fair, but that's actually one of the words that are used when we make trade agreements. "Fair Trade."

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Yousaif


Isaiah 1:23

Sandok

I believe giving poor countries an edge is exactly what this world needs. Countries need to reach the same level of development and while this is naturally happening (Economic Theory of Convergence), it would go much faster with Free Trade.

In addition, it would mean cheaper goods for the general public and lotsa jobs lost for those lazy buggers who get paid way too much compared to others. The problem is, nobody wants to have the risk of loosing their job and nobody wants to lower their profits so free trade will never be adopted.

temeteus82

I see... What if after Castro dies the country goes towards Chinese communism? ? USA does trade with them

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GutterPunk

When we have enough items (like clothes and what, well would have if importing billions of clothes at uber uber cheap prices we wouldn't have lost factories) that can made in country, importing the same items should have a tariff to allow the US market to compete. I like made in the USA products, I support them because there I am supporting workers in my country. In the IT industry I know what it is like to fear my Job Security. It is the same for anyone who works in an industry where they import billions of items into the US tax free etc. Should those companies who create the same items in the US be exempt from taxes too....? Free trade is great, but right now it hurts American manufacturers. I have been fed up buying shit that says made in china, india etc that just falls apart, fades, shrinks, or just doesn't work. We get the same in the US but when you can call an office here and they are more happy to replace it... its great!

There is a bad QA factor here in Free Trade. I think these companies are getting away with creating low quality cheap items... who get 2x the sales because people don't want to pay $20 for a different brand... instead they spend $10 and 6 months later pay another $10 to replace the wore out item. Blegh sorry for the rant, but this is mostly based against how Wal Mart will be the only business around. Then we will take it up the rear.

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Maddogg6

Well - IF policy is changed (both here and cuba) - then I suppose its possible - but tensions with cuba and gitmos location cant be coincidence - so - no I have my doubts.

We dont embargo based on gov't 'styles' alone - its based on policy - that would need to change first. I strongly feel they wont anytime soon. But I have been wrong before too... so ....

temeteus82

I see. But what you think should that embargo be lifted and people in Cuba would have the opportunity to make stuff to US market?

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Sandok

What? I thought it was the opposite... I mean, there's a general joke about how Made in America products are flimsy and fall apart within seconds. I know that's the case for me, all my Made in USA products have sorta... died...

Maddogg6

Well - no - not in a swift/single policy change.
1) opening the flood gates will spike immigration from there.
Many will come here legally at first, but then stay illegally - because it will take time for any policy change to have any economic affect there.

2) Again - FAIR trade means *they* (Cubans) also buy US products - Im not here paying 200+ (as much as 1000%) markup on cheaply made imported products (like reboks shoes from china - I get practically no discount, because of the markup on them to bring them to market value - or they would otherwise be considered 'dumping' and also considered an 'unfair trade practice') - just so to be charitable to who is NOW considered an enemy.

China taught me a lesson with fair trade - its not 'fair' to me as a consumer and member of the workforce in the US. Its great for china - their becoming a super power - AND poisoning us too, and we have little power (as a consumer of their products) to hold anyone accountable for their 'mistakes' - do I want more of the same...no.

I cant predict if/what policies would change - if ever - to speculate with any more detail.

Do I wish everyone in the world would just be fair, treat others with respect they deserve and have earned - sure - but Ive woken up from that dream into our reality.

hmm - a mod hijacking a thread....

Sandok

Hey, he brought up the subject that Free Trade would mean worse quality products when I believe its the opposite.

A memeber who won't read my posts thoroughly

temeteus82

Good! I see that you know how things work I like that. As Allan Greenspan said China might have some issues with it's economy in the future. But what I would like to see is US and Cuba sorting their issues out and put end to the embargo.

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Maddogg6

The thread title - IS IT GOOD FOR THE US - not 'European consumers'.

We know you hate the US - you made it clear. But not offer ANY example.

GP was using that as a SIDE POINT to support his opinion that was OT.
And while he may have hit on something I feel is a separate topic (in making another point) - I have no obligation to read your entire posts - but you are *supposed* to have an obligation to enforce the forum rules... no?

Sandok

You have problems maddogg I didn't say European or anything and I'm a typical consumer, doesn't really matter where I am from.

He said that Free Trade for the USA would ruin product quality when I disagree. What's the European aspect in that, the USA bashing you seem to read everywhere and all? I said I'd offer an example if so deemed necessary by Gutterpunk.

And again, if you refuse to read posts then of course it'll seem off topic and wrong and anti american and such. But if you read, well maybe that wouldn't be the case?

Anyways, the simple fact is that Free Trade in the short term is bad for developed nations, and your lovely country is quite developed so it wouldn't be great in the short term. In the end though, once the initial impact has been delt with, it'd be better of course, that's the general theory of it as I wrote previously.

Maddogg6

I have problems??

Again you give NOTHING to support your statement - even still - GP used 'product quality' as a support point to back up HIS opinion that was on topic.

Arguing 'product quality' is NOT the threads topic - is it?

'I dont agree that Made in USA= automatic better quality' - is different than
Especially with out any examples to back it up - is simply the road to thread hijacking and your typical USA 'bashing'.

And all my made in china shit breaks/fails too - so what. What, do Ferrari's last for ever now - ?? Like anything else - it depends on a lot of OFF TOPIC FACTORS when talking product quality.

That was a completely different post I didnt argue against or complain about. Whats your point repeating your self here?

The_Neon_Cowboy

free trade is bad, but mainly only when it's with mexico, all good comeing from mexico should be terifd and taxed to hell and back...

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Yousaif

The way I see "free trade" is that free trade brings the standard of living down in the developed country while simultaneously bringing the standard of living up in the underdeveloped country. Think something along the lines of what is happening in the US right now. Our wages have basically stagnated because many of the manufacturing and IT jobs are being shipped overseas to lower wage countries. As time goes by, the underdeveloped country's wages begin to catch up with wages in the US, which causes the costs associated with manufacturing the good rise.

While this is a good thing for the underdeveloped country (their wages and standard of living increase), it is a bad thing for the developed country, as the lack of jobs moves the job market to an employer thinking that there are plenty of people out there who will do it at X rate, so why should I pay the higher Y rate to this person?

As this cycle continues, jobs become harder to come by and people begin to slip in their standard of living. Foreclosures in the US have increased almost 50% in the last year as this started to happen. Recession and depression could very well be a by-product of true free trade.

That is why I advocate fair trade. A country, like the US, or a coalition of countries, like the EU, has to adopt some kind of protection for their internal firms. These could come in the form of tarriffs, customs duty, or whatever, but when a country is suffering due to low cost goods being dumped on its shores, the government really needs to step in and take some kind of action.

The EU is already doing this. They charge roughly a 4.2% duty on all imported manufactured goods. China is doing this as well, charging a 10.3% duty on all imported goods.

The US does not traditionally do this. That is why many developing nations can easily dump their goods on our shores and be able to get away with charging drastically lower prices than many American producers can charge.

What needs to happen, in lieu of the other unions and countries dropping their duties and tarrifs, is for the US to charge the same duties and tarrifs as the exporting country does on our goods. This includes the "American" companies that are producing goods overseas. We simply can not survive without doing this.

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Yousaif


Isaiah 1:23

Maddogg6

Exactly....
What makes me most nervous is; 'economic equalization' is needed for a singular world government/governing body. Remember Bush #1's push for the 'New World Order'??