mike2h

& take positive action.
i agree with this article 100%
http://www.reuters.com/article/blogB...QffCOR77fHrDXw

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BlueMak

Fear. The same way islam expanded and the same way makes people not "wanting" to leave.

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

OmegaRED

Red Mosque sounds an awful lot like Waco.

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mike2h

only in the sense that religous fanatics were stockpiling weapons & causing physical & mental harm to women & children.
red mosque was actually training/brainwashing people to become suicide bombers & kill nonbeleivers in every way they could think of.

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OmegaRED

The problem I have with articles (and books) that criticize Islam is that many of them are writen by pro Christian authors and their objectivity goes out the window.

For instance, this quote:

I find it hard to believe that Islam makes people more violent (or open to violence), more likely it's due to being poorer and not living a comfortable 9-5 lifestyle that those in the West enjoy. If you don't have weekend BBQ's and Harry Potter 6 to look forward to you'll be more likely to blow yourself up

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BlueMak

You don't see very poor people of other religions constantly randomly blowing other people up, do you?

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

OmegaRED

Duh, they can't afford explosives.

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mike2h

but the poor of islam can.... & do.

while i partially agree with you that society & economics play a role in islam being prone to violence, you have to remeber that islam is the foundation & sets the rules for how these societys perform & function.

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T.N.G.O.G.

Islam is not the problem, rather it is the people who commit crimes in GOD's name that should be examiine. Religion, nor faith is not the cause of wickedness, people are.

mike2h

while i basically agree with you, i think you missed the point. islam is propagating violence worldwide at a very alarming rate. very litle is being actively done within islam to curb this 'trend'. christianity(as an example) has had similar periods of violence in the past, but have basically advanced past these violent outbursts. & when some crazyies pop up with some crazy violent tend, christianity tends to weed them out or at least step on them hard enough that he yare mostly limited to rhetoric. other religions have followed similar paths.
islam, while not always condoning the actions of theses cowards as allowed them to propogate without any real impediment from the vast majority. that needs to change.

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OmegaRED

If you take away the idea that there's a supernatural omniscient being that has a special place for you in eternity, you'll be a lot less likely to blow yourself up or kill a heretic/infidel/unbeliever in the name of your religion. Religion is just one more barrier to treating people exactly like you'd want to be treated.

Religion and faith may not be the root of wickedness but humanity would be a heck of a lot better off without it.

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T.N.G.O.G.

Only in your mind bro. First and last, i'm not a christian and neither am i a disciple. But i am a believer of GOD, and Jesus Christ and the holy bible. And if i can live my life correctly and do what i am suppose to do, so can the next man.

mike2h

the problem with this is that it doesnt take into account that if peeps cant find one way to mess with other people, they will find another- if there was no religion there would be some other excuse.
while the amount of horrific deeds done in the name of religion is beyond count & belief, i truly think that belief in god(whoever that may be) has brought at least an equal amount of good & hope into peoples lives.
that bein said, i still think islam needs to examine itself & determine why it has such a high propensity for violence... & & deal with it. & sooner than later.
islam is on the verge of a crisis, more & more countries/peoples are associating the fanatics with islam as a whole, & this is not entirely unjustified given the increasing spread of violence. anybody & everything has become a target for theses lunatics.
if islam doesnt do something soon to slow this down & truly seperate itself from the terrorists they will face more repurcussions from the world community as a whole. this would not be good for anybody, but may become a necessary evil.

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OmegaRED

You don't need to believe in God, Jesus Christ or the validity of the Holy Bible to be a good person and live your life correctly. Once you realize that religion is really not much more than training wheels for life, as you grow up it can be tossed aside like belief in the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus. You would laugh at a grown man who placed teeth under his pillow but revere those that pray to a man in the sky

I'm glad to see you pointed out the responsibility that religion must claim for both the good and bad. I think if you kept a list on both columns the bad would outnumber the good uses for religion.

The only reason I can see for not scrapping religions altogether is that they act as a the worlds universal morality. Most of us have grown up in Western countries and benefited from proper education and moral teachings from our parents and school. Unfortunately, many children are raised in broken homes or have no education, religion can fill the void to teach them the basics of not killing, raping or torturing their fellow man. Of course, this won't be perfect substitute for real parenting but at least it could keep kids from turning into dangerous criminals

PS. I've got these two books "The politically incorrect guide to Islam" and "The Trouble with Islam Today" which would add to this discussion but I've been going through those Harry Potter books first

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SaberZ

Here is the thing I believe most of you are missing. The media is reporting these incidents, they are on the minds of most people and the focal point for criticism.

Around the world there are worse atrocieties occuring both past and present from other religions. Stalin starving or killing most of his people, Hitler nearly wiping an entire race/religion off the planet. The Russians vs the Chechnyens(sp?) today, on and on.

Are they islamic? muslim? no, they were and still are committing these acts, and yet they are rarely discussed since the media itself deems it unworthy of publishing or broadcasting it. If the tables were turned I am sure we would be sitting here debating about Christianity or Catholisism(damn im off with the spelling, apologies).

In the end what I am trying to say is that all religions have had their fair share of zealots. The former palestinian leader Arafat was christian and was depicted in the media as a troublemaker. Having been in Syria I can tell you personally there are christians and muslims living side by side without issue. Now granted that is not how it is all across the middle east but if they are able to do it without religion making a conflict im sure others can. There are just catalysts, trigger events that cause these events to take place. Each have had their own.

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SaberZ-
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mike2h

actually i mentioned other religions problems in post #10 &#13. matbe u should read before commenting on that aspect
however, without knowing it you actually support my position(sideways anyway). look at how all the historical events played out/were solved. do we really want to go there with modern technology & with a group of people who care nothing about who they harm/kill(though the koran does not support most of their violence)& a percentage of them have no compuction about dying in the proccess?
if islam cant clean its own house the world is going to have to do it for them. & that is the least preferable solution by far.
& what you say is true, there are way to many examples of different religous groups living together in some sort of harmony for it not be viable/doable.
i think that while your 'catalyst' idea is basically true, these groups in the middle east have been killing each other for centuries, the 'catalaysts' you speak of is what has caused it to spil over into the rest of the world. given the whatever it is in islam that seems to promote violence & the introduction of modern ways & technology into the area this explosion of violence was probably going to happen one way or another.
the problem we have now is how do we slow the spread of violence let alone stop it when the very religion in whose name it is all being done seems impotent in stopping these cowardly acts.

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T.N.G.O.G.

I never said you did. You might it sound like religion or faith is the cause of violence, so i said if i can live my life good, so can the next man. Proving my point that religion or faith is not bad, because i have faith and i'm a good loving person.

But it seems like everyone is missing the point. LOL religion or faith is not the problem, that is not an issue. The issue is with people, satan, and due to adam and eve sin is in this world. Sin = Wicked people, period. People keep point fingers at a religion or faith or GOD in general, but none of that has nothing to do with anything. People use religion , or faith or GOD and commit unrighteous acts.

This is nothing new, because the bible talks about this. In my case, i am not mad towards any religion or faith , rather i am disappointed in human beings. Good thing, there are alot of good ones, and the bad news, there is also a few bad ones.

OmegaRED

If God is omniscient and omnipotent than he is responsible for all our sins since he made human beings the way they are: sinful and flawed creatures. There can be no act of compassion or love nor unrighteousness or inhumanity God isn't the source of. How convenient that God gets all the "good press" but anything bad done in his name is blamed on Satan or "wickedness".

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BlueMak

Care to tell me one of today where a non muslim people is in the process of mass kills of people in parts of the world?

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

SaberZ

Recently, 90's with Haiti and its inner war. Parts of Africa that are mostly Christian faith based, again Russia vs the Chech's all based of Christian/Cathlic based religions. IF you go back in history, there have been more wars fought by the people of the Christian faith than non christians. If thats how you want to go about it then history will prove whom has more blood on their hands. Currently Islam as I had said is the main focal point just like Olestra being in potatoe chips was. Its the HOT thing(or for the matter the dumb thing that people who are incapable of understanding anything other than what their TV tells them). Past or present the people of all faiths at some point or another caused atrocities. TNGOG you are saying what I was going to point to next. You strip people of their faith, they are still going to act and behave the way they normally did. Faith alone does not shape a human, their environment does. You can argue faith as being a critical component of environment but it isn't. Good and Evil, Right and Wrong have no restriction. A thief will be a thief regardless of their alignment in faith as would a just man.

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SaberZ-
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BlueMak

I will reply later, too tired now, but, just for fun, the parts of africa you are talking about, the non christians, they wouldn't happen to be MUSLIMS would they? lol

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

Zelig

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ongoing_conflicts

A good chunk of those don't involve muslims. (And a good chunk do.)

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Reckless187

Which parts of Afica did he refer to? Which part are you thinking of when you asked the above question? Your comment is a bit confusing mate. I thought he was refering to the tribal warrings & attrocities that are & have been commited around central Africa such as, for example with the Hutu's & Tutsi's where something like 800,000 people are alleged to have died, which has nothing to do with 'MUSLIMS'. I dont think the non christians in this are are muslim or responsible for whats happening in those areas.lol? :S

You'll find that the Muslim population of Africa if more prominent in the north of Africa, contries such as Algeria & Morrocco.

thebigabdo

Shame on you!!!
I see what are you trying to do here.and i see what you mean by this subject.
I've been in the middle east,and other countries for 7 years,i know more than you do about the Islam,about Arabs,and about Us,i know more the author of that article.

before you talk about islam,you should read about it,read ,read,and stop watching Fox channel,read the Quoran as must Muslims the read the bible,do you know why?I'm sure you dont,because the believe in jesus,not tha same way we do,but they believe he will back to earth,the believe he was a prophet,a great prophet.

We all know how generous Arabs are,they open their homes for you,they feed,they take care of you and when you decide to move,the cry for you,and they gave you the best gifts.
and thats not just because of the tradition,but also by their religion.

So go and read good book about muslims,meet them,talk to them,then came back and write,i was there,i met them,i know them,I was like you,i know nothing but what the media says.
if you judge them but few "terrorists",so they gave you reasons for doing such thing,they tell you look to our brothers in Iraq,Palestine,Afghanistan,Somalia...

the next time,think by your mind,not other's mind,before you post stupidities.

OmegaRED

Take your own advice.

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mike2h

did you actually read my posts? you probably do know more about islam than i do. that wouldnt take a whole lot. my comments are based on talking to people who follow islam & what is going on in the real world around us.
i have absolutely no problem with islam as a whole. i know that the quoran does not support most(if not all) of the atrocities being commited in its name. what i do have a problem with, is islams apparent lack of desire to actively do something about these cowardly terrorists.

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Falstaff

I agree with the former prime minister of Pakistan denouncing radical fundamental muslims killing innocents and women.

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Wolfraider

Right... they train your fellow countrymen how to blow themselfs, they distabilize the country by paying money to rebels and muslim extremists and tell you that they come from god's country.. oh how much i love those generous arabs!, for being part in destroying my country. Please leave and take your religion with you that's what i have to say. Unfortunately many of my countrymen are uneducated, analfabet and uninformed and still believe in this book(Quran) of arab superiority.
Quran is good for arabs as Talmud is good for Jews.
But none of them are usefull to rest of us.

Kazeko

I had a big post typed up, but realized it could be very easily misunderstood, and/or misconstrued, and I can't seem to figure out how to delete my reply as a hole : /

mike2h

kazeko, it was a very good post. to avoid being 'misunderstood' you could leave out the specific posts that you addressed, though that is by no means needed- i happen to agree with you on both counts.
the rest of your post was very clear & well written imo, & says a lot of what i was trying to get across. only you did it better. way better

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