Iria

Source: SNAFU-ed
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Does anyone remember that terrible Star Trek: TOS episode "Spock's Brain?" Probably not, it was one of the worst episodes. Well, the man some have called "Bush's Brain", Karl Rove, also Bush's close friend and chief political strategist, has announced his resignation, effective at the end of August.

Vikingod

And along with him goes the presidents power... thank god.

I heard this on the news this morning, not a bad way to start the day.

Falstaff

how cliche...just more Bush bashing, but I guess it is popular now isnt it.

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DJShamrock

Not good enough. He needs to have his balls gnawed off by rabid wolves with AIDs during the Super Bowl Half-Time show. Fuck him. Piece of shit neocon. I hope he rots in hell for what he has done to this country.

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Falstaff

what an enlightened response....
Despite what is popular in the UK press and the world over, many if not most of us quiet Americans who actually served, serve or love our country respect the office of the U.S. presidency and the current occupant. I cant think of a polite way to say it, but it is far far easier to criticize that it is to take ownership for political views or just plain bitching...
You dont like our president, vote.
You dont like our country, get the hell out.
You spend your days bitching about what is wrong with a country? Either shutup or do something positive, productive or meaningful for your constituents, your family or yourself.
I have alsolutely no problem discussing politics with any Brit if I choose to, I actually listen to them and their concerns, and I keep hearing over and over again that Blair was ruined by Bush, etc...how naive.
Bush never does his own thinking, etc, now that is terribly naive.
Politicians have a completely different agenda than what we know and see. (YA THINK?)
Ignorance is the greatest problem with whiners today, get off their butts and get informed is the order of the day, not pint swilling dialogue from the peanut gallery.
Our democratic countries were built on the backs of the working class and fueled by the industries that profited from wars and growth. The wheels of progress are lubricated on the blood and the sweat and the spit of our working class.
Somebody, with a damn good education and lots of money and power will always run our nations, we just have to make better choices.
Who knows, maybe one day we will all be happy with who we chose to push the buttons and pull the levers of progress, but until then, I guess we will always have whiners, complainers tossing off intellectually with their myopic political eyesight, indulging in mental masturbation. As for me, I voted for Bush Senior and Junior because I am a Conservative Republican with enough checks cashed on my behalf to know where my money is going and where my taxes were spent. I am not happy with everything the current administration is doing and chafe at anyone that stands in the pulpit and declares any leader as the savior of the free world with dialated pupils and ketones on their breath, I am smart enough to know that the guy at the top gets his share of the pie, as well as we do.
So to the extremists, whiners, objectors and obsfuscatalogists I say "get involved, or shut the hell up".

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DJShamrock

I served in the USAF from 1990-1994. I vote Democrat in every election. I organize rally's and have a huge politics forum I own.

I even of my own gaming website.I watch the news 5 hours a day from CNN to MSNBC. I read newsweek and even listen to some Fox News bullcrap to stay fair and balanced. So for you to just blanket stereotype me as some whiner, well sorry, I am very active in politics.

Rove singlehandedly destroy the neocon agenda, got us into the wrong war over lies, outed a CIA operative, tapped our phones, and called anyone whom disagrees with him un-american.

Rove can DIAF and you know what else? He said he knew "the math" in the 2006 midterms. Yeah right, he doesn't know dick. I hope dick shoots him in the face.

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Maddogg6

isnt it presumptuous to assume people expressing opinions here are not active and are *only* whiners??

And making up 'intelligent' sounding , yet non-existent words like obsfuscatalogists
isnt any more 'enlightened' of a response...

I happen to agree - Rove should be getting the 'gitmo treatment' that 'never happens' for his 'advising' our 'great' president.

P.S. not every American considers criticism of its politicians as 'un-patriotic' or even disrespectful. To say one thing like 'Bush is Good' to one - and say 'hes not so good' to another - this is often seen as more disrespectful - it can be called 'patronizing' - but not 'patriotic'... its also called 'two-faced' and 'dishonest'.

As a matter of fact - the whole idea of 'patriotism' in the US stems from how this country was formed - by organizing and rejecting an unwanted gov't. So - anyone who speaks against the gov't IS patriotic.

AND - expressing your opinion - IS activity - wtf is a debate but ideas expressed to your peers, remarkably similar to ideas expressed in a forum like this. NOT saying your opinion is 'doing nothing'.

Why look at this forum if its 'nothing' ??

Falstaff

A democrat, and owning whiner doesnt surprise me at all..LOL
but typical really of what I have come to expect from Dems anyway.
If you were sincere about your first post and really intended to just entertain other members with your political expertise you may have fallen short of the mark. When the very first comment about any member of the Bush cabinet whether you admire them or not (as the case is here) is expletives then the issue isnt Rove or Bush, its your frustration with a choice that voters made eight years ago. I personally do not attempt to explain or criticize the Clinton years or the previous Bush administrations based solely on the right and left handed spins the media can churn out either here or abroad, but I do know whether a Democrat or a Republican was in charge during 911 we would still have gone to war eventually.
Long before either one of us was born the die was cast that would engage the free world as even we know it against the assymetrical foe we now face. I am waving my American flag not because I have a patriotic duty, but because I believe that citizenship is more than just being born in the USA and bitching. Your a democrat so I understand your frustration, I am sure if your party ran the country for the past eight years, your position about changes in the current administration would be moot, and you would be waxing philisophically or not at all. I am not questioning your intellgience or patriatism, but my pun with [COLOR=red]obsfuscatalogy [/COLOR]is a perfect example. If your slighted in some way I apologize, but cursing and foul language is the province of the weak minded and the indifferent. I dont mind a little enthusiastic banter or debate about anything that fits within the realm of this forum, but I have sure seen a great deal ham fisted profane dialogue by DH members that obviously have no other buy in here but to rant.

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Falstaff

Are you attempting to debate my motives for my rebuttal or defending the right of opinion and self expression. I am just talking about debate without emotionally charged comments and profanity. I honestly try to avoid using street and bar language when I post here, I believe it requires higher thought processes or genuine interest in a subject to discuss, debate or disagree intellgiently about anything. Now back to Rove, I never said I agreed with Bushes choice, in fact I avoided that, but I have stood behind the administration of many presidents in uniform whether I agreed with them or not.

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Vikingod

Not Bush bashing, just my personal, researched opinion, Jeff. Just because I think the guy is a terrible president, doesn't mean I jumped on the band wagon because everyone else did.

Maddogg6

Well I was pointing out that your post was no more significant than anyone elses.
I was pointing out that expressing you opinion is not 'just whinning' - political ideals get exchanged from one to another some way - being in face to face communication or a DH forum.
I also pointed out that you are quick to make assumptions.

So - the grammer level used in ones expressed opinion is now a measure for ones importance in discussion that involves everyone - thats NOT a democratic thing to say - and guess what - theres no IQ/grammer test needed to vote.

Its sounds like you think - only educated people should be allowed to voice their opinion on a subject that *does* affect them. Like it or not - foul mouth people vote. Sometime you have to speak their language to communicate.

and if you *dont* get emotional over politics and religion - Id have to ask if you have a pulse. (its probably why it has its own forum - expecting argument, arguments often lead to 'street' language use)

I dunno - that level of loyalty while expected of our servicemen, is dangerous. The idea of obedient loyalty on things you do not believe in?? well the word 'sheep' pops into mind - but its also what the military needs - we don't need 200,000 general in the battle field questioning every order - but - really - do you think Iraq was 'just' about ejecting Saddam? freeing the people?. They sure don't seem to appreciate it - makes me think we did them no favors there...and Carl Rove, being a key adviser - gets his share of the blame too - tho - intimately - the top guy currently in charge gets paid by my tax dollars to take the credit or the blame for this countries well being.

Vikingod

Good response.

I have to say, Jeff, I'm very surprised of the dismissive, "Holier than Thou" theme of your responses in this thread. I wouldn't have expected that from you.

I agree with your points that many are ignorant of the political scene, and tend to side with whatever John Stuart says on his show; but to assume everyone who doesn't agree with your views, is ignorant as well, seems strange. I think the real issue is that people often have trouble reading between the lines, which is something I think history will show this specific administration has spend a great deal of time and money preserving. And that is the lesser of the atrocities they have committed in the face of the country and of the world.

It also strikes me funny that you said you don't agree with the things they have done, yet you give your support anyway. It brings up the questions, which is better; to be ignorant, or to be educated and ignore what you know? Would you respect someone more if they agree with you on faith, or if they disagreed with you and could tell you precisely why? Is it better to be critical, or prejudice?

Maddogg6

Just because I think that needed repeating.... its not for years later we learn about how some ex-politician, who is already dead, or close enough, has screwed the majority of the US citizens for personal gains. I just *know* plenty of future cases like that are happening as we speak in the mid-east.

You can call one ignorant of facts - thats fine - correct them... But to just call them stupid is counter productive - and worse than 'whinning' imo - as it divides us, proliferates ignorance - and imo - is what these people prefer.

OldBuzzard

Now Falstaff, you should have known danged well that anytime President Bush, or Carl Rove are mentioned that BDS* kicks in, and the rabid moonbats (Whackedoutus Fliedermausus Lunaris) will come out in force. They can't help it.

As to DJS's remarks, you have to understand that to a liberal's one way view of the universe that's just a reasoned response. However if the same thing was said about a liberal, it's an attack and 'hate speech'.



*Bush Derangement Syndrome. A mental condition that, anytime President Bush is mentioned, sends liberals into a mouth frothing, Donald Duck with his private member caught in his zipper, rage. This results in loss of civility, cognizant thought, lack of respect,and mindless use of DU talking points.

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When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

Maddogg6

Really - how much different is this post than saying some ones an asshole??
Your post - like Falstaffs' are only off topic personal attacks aimed at no one in particular. edit: broad generalizations /edit

So please - tell me why Rove is so great. So we can actually debate, and stop with the personal attacks of form members.

OldBuzzard

How about the fact that President Bush and Carl Rove have been kicking the snot out of the liberals for the last 6+ years in every way polotically that matters? How about the fact that 'stupid' Bush (who by the way has an MBA) defeated the the 'oh so intelligent' Al Gore (who by the way managed to flunk out of Divinity school)? Then four years later defeated John Effin Kerry (who if you did't know, served in Viet Nam) who by the way had a lower GPA in the same school as Bush.

How about the fact that Bush and Rove have defeated the Democrats each and every time they have gone against them, and that the Democrats have been reduced to doing nothing more that name calling even tho they now have a majority in Congress?

Maybe Dubya is 'stupid', but if so, what does that say about the people that he continually snookers, and runs rings around?

Please, don't change your opinions based on anything I say here. I prefer that you and the rest of the moonbats continue to think like you do now. That will ensure that you will continue to 'misinderestimate' us poor ignorant Conservatives, and we will keep kicking your butt in the political arena, whilst you have no clue as to why it's happening.


Oh, I wasn't calling anyone an 'asshole'. I called him (and others of his ilk) MOONBATS. I wouldn't insult an asshole by calling him a moonbat.

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When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

Maddogg6

- erm - ok - rove helped kick the snot out of the liberals?? thats something to put on a resume I suppose... ??

Umm - thats becuase this nation-less 'war on terror' farce gives bush more legal power than he should have.

But - ok - defeated democrats - another point for roves resume ??

How does it help our country - when *both sides* refuse to work together to find some common ground ??

This thread *was* about rove - right?

And, I didnt call anyone ignorant....

My point was - all thats going on here is name calling mixed with sarcasm meant to be insulting...
Beating libs and dems - is not a point worth debating...

So, I will ask more specifically - how has Karl Rove - helped out this country as a whole??

OldBuzzard

[quote=Maddogg6;1078662...

So, I will ask more specifically - how has Karl Rove - helped out this country as a whole??[/quote]

You can answer that one yourself. YOU are the ones that are so happy that he's leaving The very reasons the liberals want him gone are the answer to your question.

Part of being a liberal means that you think that you are somehow smarter than everyone else, and that the great unwashed, uneducated masses need you to tell them how to live. People like Bush, Rove, Cheney, Ms. Rice, and others prove this to be wrong, and you can't stand it. So, in order to 'feel better' about yourselves, you have to convince each other that they are somehow 'EEEEEVVVVIILLLEEEE', and must be stopped for 'the good of the people'.

The question for you is, now that Rove is gone, who are you going to claim is 'Bush's brain' when Dubya CONTINUES to outsmart the liberals?

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When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

Maddogg6

So, you like him because he will break laws to further his clients agenda?

Im talking about wiretapping deemed illegal, the Plame ordeal, illegal detentions of *American* citizens...

You seem to be proud of such illegal activity on *their* parts.
You seem to hold dear their political strategy against other politicians more so than their performance in their jobs - that *we* as tax payers, pay them for to serve *us* - you and me - they are not there for the sole purpose of destroying other politicians/parties.

You seem to have this attitude....
*whoo hoo go John Goddi - you are great - you killed some liberals*

I *have* to assume that because you keep avoiding valid, debatable points - and run into more presumptuous insults... like...

Why do you keep assuming Im a liberal? - because I don't like rove or bush? - wtf?? Please stop trying to label those who criticizes a politician - some people actually judge a politician on their performance in how they serve the *American people* and not their *political party*.
Note/ Clinton was no gem either... and Im not in favor of big gov't 'telling people how to live' /note

And there ya go - making it about bush again. The thread is about rove - not bush.
Besides -again - bush is there to serve *us* - not a political party. If you like what bush has done - ok - but that would be a different thread.

About intelligence levels...
It doesn't seem too intelligent to rate a pres on how he serves his party over how he serves the people - and a <50% approval rating (lower actually) says - hes not serving the majority - but a minority.

This country was founded on; "By the people, for the people." not "by the people, for their political party"

OmegaRED

Dubya doesn't need Karl Rove to continue defeating liberalism, he needs to continue the lies and fear mongering while labelling the liberals as unpatriotic. The masses have already been scared into giving Bush the power he needs it's just a matter of keeping the people in line with terrorism scares for as long as necessary.

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OldBuzzard

When it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck...it's a DUCK.

The wiretapping which in the case you are talking about was ELECTRONICALLY monitoring telephone traffic from sites OVERSEAS coming into the US. This monitoring is completely legal and needs no warrants, as so stated by the US Supreme Court. In this case you are using a typical LIEberal tactic to lie by not telling the WHOLE TRUTH.

For illegal spying on american citizens, how about this:
"A controversial and little publicized aspect of Valerie Plame's career involves her participation in domestic spying. One confirmed incident which occurred in 1996 involved spying on a US citizen in Florida. The incident in Florida included CIA officers whose identities were later revealed publicly: John Spann, Cheri Leberknight, Eunjoo Kensinger, Rebecca Wolfson, and Mike Fabregas. Following the revelation of Valerie Plame’s involvement in domestic spying, efforts were made by the FBI and CIA to cover up the incident and a smear campaign was launched by CIA personnel and contractors to discredit any public reports about the incident."

"Illegal" detention of an 'American Citicen"? OH, you mean the guy that they picked up in Afganistan that was training with Al Queda? That SOB should have gotten a bullet in the head, on the spot.

Plame? She was not, nor had she been a 'covert' operative for over 5 years, and the so called outing of hers was not illegal. NOR did the eeeeeevllliiillleeee Carl Rove have anyting to do with it. The special prosecutor's investigation proved that, and no one was ever indicted for outing her. Only one person was tried in connection with that case, and that was for supposedly lieing to the prosecutor. That in itself was suspect since it was mostly a faluty memory as to times, as opposed to events.

You liberals have tried for years to find something 'illegal' with the actions of Bush and Rove, and haven't been able to do so. Hell, you can't even 'manufacture' anything illegal.

I'm sorry. but you WANTING something to be illegal, and FEELING that something is illegal, dosen't make it so.

OmegaRED...show me ONE, just ONE quote where PRESIDENT BUSH has called any liberal UNPATRIOTIC. He either did it, or you are a liar...now put up or shut up.

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When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

Maddogg6

Taken from:http://thinkprogress.org/2006/06/29/gitmo-wiretapping/



Well hes not the only one - just the most public... still not legal either

But then theres these..
http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell...007-irna01.htm
http://www.utexas.edu/law/news/2007/030607_aclu.html
http://www.cs.umass.edu/~immerman/pl...ntsPrison.html
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2005...ims23dec05.htm
http://www.nightslantern.ca/law/omarkhadr.html

Theres more if you care enough and google - you'll find plenty more... Associated with ICE/CIA/FBI/Army through out the world... 'rendition' in germany for instance.

And proof - any detention of *anyone* in the US - with out habeas corpus - is illegal.
http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=15119
Ive read about hundreds of muslims rounded up and held for as moch as a month before 'cleared'. Some were US born citizens - but middle east descent and muslim. One store owner simply sold something to another suspect - who was also released. But no charges we filed, no access to a lawyer, no outside contact at all.

And - Gitmo itself is an illegal occupation on our part btw - (of course this is not Bushes doing) we have embargos on Cuba - but we also have a Navy base there we pay Castro $4K / mo for rent ?? Our 'landlords', who in the 60's invited russian nukes into our backyard.


And Plame...from http://edition.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS...eak/index.html
2 very good reasons - why the incident is illegal no matter what spin you put on that story.

Maddogg6

From: Liberal News March 3, 2002

Bush seems to think Atheists have no rights - nor are patriotic - and his contradiction of being 'one nation under god' - but supports a separation of church and state - forgets about our freedom of religion.

Crack_Pot

has anyone seen deacon stan: jesus man. there is a part/episode in that where Rove is featured, and everytime you hear his name, you hear a wolf howl in the background, and it is usually accompanied by the flashing of lightning and thunder. saying anything there, perhaps?

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Victory is Mine!

OldBuzzard

Well, well, well Maddog...how much more are you gpoing to lie????

How about the WHOLE article like this:

[COLOR=#800000]Vice President Bush came to Chicago on Thursday, August 27, 1987, to announce that additional townships had been declared flood disaster areas, subsequent to rainfall of seven inches in one day, earlier in the week. (We can only deal with an inch or two at a time. Otherwise, we flood.)[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#800000]The Vice President held a news conference at O'Hare Airport that afternoon, which I attended as Midwest Bureau Chief of American Atheist Press, publisher of the [/COLOR][COLOR=#0000ff]American Atheist Magazine[/COLOR][COLOR=#800000] and many very well written books and pamphlets on the subject of atheism. After taking several questions about the disaster declaration, the questions turned to politics.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#800000]Bush had just announced his candidacy, one week earlier, for the nomination of his party for President. The Republican National Convention and the election were one year away.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#800000]I asked Bush, "What are you going to do to win the votes of Americans who are atheists?"[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#800000]Bush replied, "I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me."[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#800000]I followed up: "Do you support the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?"[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#800000]He replied, "I don't know that atheists should be regarded as citizens, nor should they be regarded as patriotic. This is one nation under God."[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#800000]After other reporters asked a few questions about issues that they were concerned about, I was then able to get in one more follow-up question on my subject: "Do you support the constitutionality of state/church separation?"[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#800000]Vice President Bush responded, "I support separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists."[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#800000]The entire Chicago political press corps was there, along with members of the White House press corps and national news reporters, but no reporter thought that this anti-atheist bigotry was sufficiently newsworthy to do anything with it, other than me.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#800000]If you have any unanswered questions about this matter, please feel free to contact me in any of the manners described below.[/COLOR]





So, you take a 'supposed interview' of his FATHER from 1987 and try to make us think that Dubya said it.

You are so pathetic. Lie after lie after lie. No wonder the LIEburals are in so much trouble. You can't even tell the truth to yourself.

Your credibity is ZERO. I know you think all cons are 'dumb' but puleeeezzz..why try something so pathetically lame?

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When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

Maddogg6

[COLOR="Black"]OK - my mistake - but lets look at pathetic -[/COLOR] out off all I posted - thats what you point out - HIS FATHERS quote - as if the acorn fell far from the tree... pff. Which veers off topic anyway... its NOT about BUSH!

ANd, How is that a LIE??? ... You CONmen with YOUR NAME CALLING - is *not* pathetic? - please.... you keep calling me a 'liar' - can you actually make an argument WITHOUT calling someone a name?? - please point out MY calling *you* any names... (prior to the above) !!

edit - AND notice how I post my source - I have nothing to hide.

edit:
bwahahahahaha - you had me for a minute OB... - you didn't specify WHICH BUSH...
pathetic liar??? so my post still stands. Appology retracted.

Asmoday

OldBuzzard I suggest you tone down your insults against the other posters in this thread, please try to debate in an civil manner. There is absolutly no reason for calling people pathetic liars.

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Maddogg6

and - because I know its coming - NO, I didnt report your post OB...

OldBuzzard

Whatever...I'm done with him anyway.

Pretty hard to debate someone who can't tell the truth.

I called it as I saw it, and if it's too harsh for some then so be it.

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When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

Maddogg6

LIES? - I posted my source - I guess - unless it comes from fox news - its a lie.