Americans should sacrifice their SUVs

fobis · Dec 4, 2007, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zelig

I dunno, a lot of SUVs can't even be taking offroad anymore, because they're not built with that in mind. SUVs are basically just cooler looking minivans for the most part.

True enough, SUV's are turning into glorified minivans for soccer moms, but they're still good for moving a lot of things and going into the mountains to ski with all your equipment and multiple people.

mike2h · Dec 4, 2007, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zelig

In general, no.

Land Rovers are particularly safe though, statistics from the UK department of transport shows that the safest vehicles in 2-vehicle collisions are the Land Rover Defender and Discovery, the Mercedes-Benz S-Class and the Jaguar XJ.

that is just silly zelig. the average suv is much safer in accidents than the average sedan.
a recent example - my youngest sisters kids were going to a soccer in bend or, they live in portland or. they had to travel over the cascades to get there(for you peeps that say 4wd aint needed, they were only allowing 4wd with chains, been there on that one myself several times

). on the way a horse ran out in front of them & they collided with it. it was a nasty accident as im sure you can imagine, but the worst anyone got was a couple of minor contusions & some scratdhes. everyone in the suv agreed that if they had been in a sedan it would have been much, much worse.
while i agree that a large % of suv owners dont need them, suv's are very useful for large familys & people that drive long distances/ take road trips a lot. & taxing them extra for other peoples sillyness is not fair.
i also think that the auto makers could contribute a lot more to better/different engine designs. toyota seems to be going in the right direction.

Zelig · Dec 4, 2007, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike2h

the average suv is much safer in accidents than the average sedan.

Maybe I should have clarified my orginal comment better.

Although heavier vehicles, all other things being equal, will be safer than lighter vehicles, there are a lot of other things that come into play.

For example, take the Chevy Blazer and Audi S4. Chances of dying in the Blazer are about 17 times greater than in the S4. When looking at safety for a vehicle, it's really best to look at the individual vehicle, and not count on it being particularly safe simply because of it's size or weight.

As a side note, much of the increased safety from added size/weight is by virture that a vehicle is bigger than other vehicles in an accident. SUVs and pick-ups are far more dangerous to other vehicles (source) than cars of the same weight, while having similar safety for their own occupants, so if everyone were to drive large SUVs, it results in more dead people than if everyone were to drive large cars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fobis

True enough, SUV's are turning into glorified minivans for soccer moms, but they're still good for moving a lot of things and going into the mountains to ski with all your equipment and multiple people.

Pff, I spent 2 winters doing ski trips every weekend with 4 people in this car, with the skis/boards strapped to the roof.

mike2h · Dec 4, 2007, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Maybe I should have clarified my orginal comment better.

Although heavier vehicles, all other things being equal, will be safer than lighter vehicles, there are a lot of other things that come into play.

kinda thought it was like that

Quote:

For example, take the Chevy Blazer and Audi S4. Chances of dying in the Blazer are about 17 times greater than in the S4. When looking at safety for a vehicle, it's really best to look at the individual vehicle, and not count on it being particularly safe simply because of it's size or weight.

maybe you should try comparing vehicles in the same price range. a fully loaded sportsblazer is in the low 30's. the cheapest s4 starts at around 40 thousand & goes straght up in price.

Quote:

As a side note, much of the increased safety from added size/weight is by virture that a vehicle is bigger than other vehicles in an accident. SUVs and pick-ups are far more dangerous to other vehicles (source) than cars of the same weight, while having similar safety for their own occupants, so if everyone were to drive large SUVs, it results in more dead people than if everyone were to drive large cars.

while this is true, the last statement isnt. numbers would even out as there would be fewer fatalities at lower speeds(were most accidents happen) & slightly more at high speeds. the thing is, if you are going to be in any kind of accident a suv is overall the safest consumer vehicle to be in.
of course the average needs & types of accidents for most people in metro areas doesnt really require a suv or some monster sedan.

bottom line, america does need to wake up & realise that gas guzzling vehicles should not be a status vehicle. i also believe that taxing the hell out of them is not an answer as it punishes people who have legit needs for such a vehicle.
as an added thought, how do we fit in all the high performance/luxury gas guzzling sedans out there? some of these are as bad or worse than most suvs.

Zelig · Dec 4, 2007, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike2h

maybe you should try comparing vehicles in the same price range. a fully loaded sportsblazer is in the low 30's. the cheapest s4 starts at around 40 thousand & goes straght up in price.

Ford Excursion and Infiniti G35 (Nissan Skyline) are comparable in price, and the Infititi offers about 10 times less chance of death.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike2h

while this is true, the last statement isnt. numbers would even out as there would be fewer fatalities at lower speeds(were most accidents happen) & slightly more at high speeds.

You're right, I'll retract that, not because of differing fatalities at different speeds, but because of not having stats comparing deaths per collision of the same type of vehicle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike2h

the thing is, if you are going to be in any kind of accident a suv is overall the safest consumer vehicle to be in.

On average yes, overall, the safest (as determined by the guidelines in that link) 4 consumer vehicles include two SUVs (Land Rovers), and two lines of luxury cars (Jaguar XJ, Mercedes-Benz S-Class).

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike2h

bottom line, america does need to wake up & realise that gas guzzling vehicles should not be a status vehicle. i also believe that taxing the hell out of them is not an answer as it punishes people who have legit needs for such a vehicle.
as an added thought, how do we fit in all the high performance/luxury gas guzzling sedans out there? some of these are as bad or worse than most suvs.

America has some of the world's lowest gasoline taxes and prices (ignoring state-subsidized prices from Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, etc.), Europe and Canada are getting along fine with higher gas prices, so I'm not sure that increased gasoline prices would be particularly detrimental. I can think of worse things to tax.

Honestly, I'm not sure what I would propose to deal with the issue, other than making sure people have access to information about the consequences of their purchases. Maybe an extra tax on gasoline, and not diesel?

**kris23** · Dec 5, 2007, 12:00 AM

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taco oil is free gas man...... saw it proven on many tests

Dec 5, 2007, 12:00 AM	#36
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