bluelight

The prisoners in Cuba is HIGHLY interseting.


How that issue is handle4d....tells ALL about the future of you country in a juridical sense.

It also expalins what to expect about stuff like the patriot law...in the future...the architects for both thing are the same people.


Legal councel!!??

Which legal councel??

Making overtures ....How??

Borh of these arguments are not valid.Not at all.

The prisoners are held against the genvea convention.

The will be given "closed " secret trials wioth no possibility to defnd themselves or for the world to leran one single thing from the courts.

Guantanmo is yet another act of the rightwing extremeist walking around in the shdows of the White house.


It is an act of revenge that serves no cause at all.

A useless act of agression ´that destroys previous international ideas of how to treat both normal and military prisoners.

You can now pride your selves that you treat prisoners just as well as Marocko Libya etc etc..

"The leading light"!!!??

Hardly when it comes to justice...and how justice is to be carried out.

Bluelight

SH4President

Javafox????
You said earlier that every prisoner in Cuba was guilty!!!
And that ad how you justified it.
This proves that you are wrong!!
I dont think the US would release a guilty prisoner!!

Falstaff

I think your confusing the prisoner held in leu of a legal proceeding, vs someone that engaged american forces in combat..



Yes perhaps, when we finally get the entire story about their participation in aggression in Afghanistan and their connection with terrorists based in Afghanistan, and their affiliation with Al Quida...I propose a theory....When Osama Bin Laden is brought to justice, when he is dead or no longer a threat...and all the other tentacles of his network are cut off...then these prisoners may be relieved and sent home...

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SH4President

Once again you make a remark without understanding the topic!! This is getting tirening!!
Have you read the link that Javafox put out about the Cuban prisoners???
If you havent then a suggest you do so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Until then please dont talk so much bs.

Falstaff

your are accustomed to insulting people...you should take abreak

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JavaFox

I'm going to have to agree with Jeff here. Either you want to debate or not. If you insist on lobbing insults and posting 4-line missives that more closely resemble whining than anything else, I am going to have to ask you to not participate.

SH4President

Javafox and fallan_jeff dont be mad at me because Ive proven you both wrong.
Hate the game not the playa. Isnt that what you say in America?

But you will probably deleate this post wont you JavaFox??
Thats called censorship.
Freedom of speach? No , that only for Americans!
Anyone talk back to an American then freedom of speach doesnt apply anymore!!!
Then we deleate their messages and talk shit about them!!

Well what can I say JavaFox and fallng_jeff? Ive proven you both wrong!! Take it as a man and stop whining like little children.
You were wrong, its simple as that. Nothing more nothing less. YOU were wrong.

digerati

Okay I just couldn't stay out of it. Ban this asshole now. Freedom of speech is to say what you believe and debate it. Not to yell useless information and insults. You are the drunken whino who picks fights and speaks jibberish. How do you like tha analogy? I think mine makes more sense than yours.

He is the reason that there is war in this world. Hand him an AK and he's ready to go fight the coalition forces because American's are too fat.

Falstaff

I think it is the angst of youth, SH4president has a unique oppurtunity to settle these issues by simply commenting on some other thread or starting another one. I have in the past lost my objectivity and become more than a little involved in the subtext and lost the context for sure..But a little break and some Star Trek and I am okay......just a few minutes looking at 7 of 9 and I can chill, ha ha...


I think learning that people disagree and will continue to disagree is nothing new, but I know posting and replying all the time can produce a kind euphoria, then when that becomes more than simply bantering or disagreement, I suppose even SH4 president can lose his objectivity...

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eyeguy616

Mmm, I might be torched for this, but it must be asked: Just what have you proved, and what was it about? Is that all your after? Just to prove someone wrong? Jeez, what a waste of time.... I think whatever point you may have had was buried in other points you brought up to hide what you couldn't post. We try to show you that the U.S. tries to do what it can so that the whole will be better. I'm not saying the few should be left out or their rights (if they have any) should be violated, but what can you or the country you hail from do? Could you step in and try to fix things? Would you? Or would you rather stay on the sidelines and criticize those that try? On that note, how about I revisit two of your earlier posts:
hmmm, how about we turn this around.
What if the old lady wants to cross a busy intersection but has no affective means of communicating it? She is very slow with her cane, but with someone there to hold her she can walk briskly. The cars won't stop for her, but if the lights are red, they have to stop. She presses the button on the side of the street lights to make the lights red so she can walk, but all the people around her don't mind her almost to the point of running into her. She does not have the strength to make herself noticed, but you notice her. Will you be this person to help her, or are you going to just ignore her? Are you going to offer her your arm so that she can walk a little more safely across the busy streets? If you help her, she will reward in some way, either with something physical or with the big warm-and-fuzzy feeling you get when she hugs and thanks you for being so kind.
I'd help her, even if there was no reward.

Even though Java answered, I'll add a comment on this. (actually I typed this and the previous comment out during the previous site-outage but was too late post)
I'll give you an answer: Yes. They are prisoners. Those people are al-Qaeda suspects, and were in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm amazed they weren't killed in combat.... Whether or not they are guilty of anything has yet to be leaked, but only those few were transported. In those areas where soldiers without uniforms can attack you from anywhere, certain measures must be taken not to allow them to escape or kill more people. If that means stripping them of any and all rights they think they have, so be it. Rights are only guaranteed by people who believe in them and/or governments. It's an idea. In some Islamic countries, women have no rights. They can't vote, hold jobs, be out in public without a male family member, or even drive! All they can do is stay at home, and maybe use the internet if they're lucky to even have a connection or a computer. Why not complain about how those women don't have any rights and are kept like prisoners in their own homes? Are you too high and mighty to care about them? We care. We will try.

I implore you to please make better points and not be so rash. We are at least giving Iraq a chance to become a great nation again. When we bombed Japan and made them surrender in WWII, what happened afterward? We became their protectors and they became the world's pivot on technological advancement.
~eyeguy616
-Oh, and please try to reflect an overall answer to all those questions in your next post. We/I try to answer yours, so try to answer ours/mine.

Falstaff

into one salient point as well, but there is an emotional component to many posts by this fellow SH4president, but I agree, alot of these posts he created do in fact hide darker sentiments and may reflect something that cannot be exorcised by these forums...

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JavaFox

As far as I can tell, you haven't made a point or brought up anything that hasn't been addressed. At any rate, I will not listen to this gibberish about "freedom of speech" when you fundamentally misunderstand the concept. This is a private forum and there are rules of conduct. You can choose to abide by them or not.

That isn't up for debate.

GOG

No, prisoners got rights. No, it's not thanks to you that the Jap's have advanced technology, it's the other way around. You dropped two atom bombs on civilian targets in a country that was already defeated and now you want credit for their advanced technology? What the hell is wrong with you people?

Falstaff

The particuler prisoners that you are referring to are granted many rights and they exercise them...

The japanese post war economy was in a shambles, their reputation for mass production was suspect even though they had craftsman renowned in may arts and a culture that valued skill above all..they could't consistently mass produce anything..with a level of quality found in America..
An american industrialist came to japan, tought new production methods and the japanese used the template to create an industrial nation that rivals any. But an american brought that philosphy to them...
We might assume that the japanese would have eventually found a way, but we only occupied japan for six years then left, MacArthur gave them a constitution and a new structure for their government..
by the way the term "japs" is considered bad form, and offensive..I lived there for six years and find it equally offensive..please don't use that term again...

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Falstaff

Dr. W. Edwards Deming
Dr. W. Edwards Deming developed his System of Profound Knowledge as a comprehensive theory for management, providing the rationale by which every aspect of life may be improved. Dr. Deming’s teachings of his management philosophy in Japan from 1950 on, created a total transformation in Japanese business resulting in what is known today as the "Japanese Industrial Miracle." In recognition of his achievements in providing the theory and methods to improve the quality and dependability of manufactured products, Dr. Deming was decorated by the Japanese Emperor with the Second Order Medal of the Sacred Treasure. In 1950 the annual Deming Prize(s) were established by the Union of Japanese Scientists and Engineers (JUSE).
For more than 40 years, Dr. Deming served as a consultant in statistical studies with a worldwide practice. His clients included railways, telephone companies, carriers of motor freight, manufacturing companies, hospitals, legal firms, government agencies and research organizations. Dr. Deming also published numerous articles and books and lectured at seminars and universities worldwide. He was on the faculty of the Stern School of Business at New York University for 46 years. He held a Ph. D. in mathematical physics from Yale University. He was elected to the National Academy of Engineering in 1983, inducted into the Science and Engineering Hall of Fame in 1986 and received the National Medal of Technology from President Reagan in 1986.
For decades, his voice - which continues to be heard - codified the principles and practices that now constitute Total Quality Managment (Although he objected to the use of the term, we continue to use it for easy reference to a philosphy whose initial most businesspeople are familiar with).
Deming's 14 Points of Management - comprise the essence of his quality views. Dr. Deming called for well defined systems, asserting that the more complex the system, the more critical the need for good communication among the system parts.
Create constancy of purpose toward improvement of product and service
Adopt the new philosophy. We can no longer live with commonly accepted levels of delay, mistakes, defective materials, and defective workmanship.
Cease dependence as mass inspection. Require, instead, statistical evidence that quality is built-in.
End the practice of awarding business on the basis of price tag.
Find problems. It is management's job to work continually on the system.
Institute modern methods of training on the job.
Institute modern methods of supervision of production workers. The responsibility of supervisors must be changed from numbers to quality.
Drive out fear so that everyone may work effectively for the company.
Break down barriers between departments.
Eliminate numerical goals, posters, and slogans for the workforce that ask for new levels of productivity without providing methods.
Eliminate work standards that prescribe numerical quotas.
Remove barriers that stand between hourly workers and their right to provide of workmanship.
Institute a vidorous program of education and retraining.
Create a structure in top management that supports the preceeding 13 points every day.
Dr. Deming passed away in December 1993 at the age of 93.

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Falstaff

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bluelight

Well...i believe in justice.......Justice ...is not what you are up to at Guantanamo.




The court in Haag that works with war crimes in Yugoslavia....is Justice.

Guantanamo is not.


Guantanamo is a parody of justice and a SHAME to America.

Period.

Bluelight


Bluelight

JavaFox

Firstly, I've already had this discussion with another member on this board, and I will reiterate: I don't want to see the word "Jap" used as a reference to the Japanese people. This is an ethnic slur. I realize that you probably did so unknowingly, but I ask that you don't do it again.

Being half Japanese, with a mother who is Japanese, and having lived in Japan for a decade, WWII is something that cuts somewhat close to the bone for me. Certainly there were crime perpetuated by, but also directed towards, the Japanese during this time. And I am grateful that we no longer live in a world where levelling cities is an acceptable way to bring about the end of the war.

That said, do I agree with the dropping of the nuclear bomb? This is something I struggle with. Certainly I do not agree with the dropping of the second. And while I harbor some beliefs myself that the first bomb was unjustified militarily, I cannot fault the American administration at the time. I believe they did what they thought would bring about the swift end to a brutal war.

So, yes, the Americans utterly destroyed an aggressor. Are you suggesting that the Japanese rebuilt their nation on their own? No, the Americans, by way of the Marshall Plan, ran and and rebuilt Japan. They created a modern democracy. And it was out of that democracy that Japan's world-renowned technology grew. Much of what Japan produced early on were American products, better.

So in a way, yes, we did create much of what the Japanese now have a claim to fame for. The Japanese did not invent cars or radios. At any rate, the Japanese would have been hard pressed, I think, to have rebuilt their nation on their own. To deny Americans credit for that is ridiculous.

JavaFox

Why is it so difficult for you to believe/admit that war-time justice and peace-time justice have to be different? American has already tried treating terrorist acts like criminal acts. This is what happened under the Clinton administration. That is what led to 9-11. We Americans are not interesting in going down that road again.

Face it, war is a different situation! Do you have investigators collect evidence after a battle? Of course not. Then how can you expect the miliary to act like a criminal court?

Falstaff

When I worked at the Yokohama library, I took courses to aquaint myself with the postwar industrial revolution in Japan..my fellow students couldn't understand why I didn't know the Deming model, and all were definitely antiwar...preferring to watch samurai on television, but even the most well know film makers in Japan portray the futulity of war rather than glorify it..Just living, being successful and surviving to a ripe old age seem to be the most honorable goals to them...and I have adopted them as well...

The issue with the cuban prisoners wil be the subject of hours of law school arguments and investigation that might rival the Nuremburg trials and our subsequent faliure to prosecute all the Nazi criminals during the postwar years, in fact allowing many of them to flee to south america to prosper..I am not blind to the contrasts between how we treated prisoners during the last wars and now..

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Falstaff

that the belgian lawyer was making a symbolic attempt to say america should be tried for war crimes as well as the IRAQI's or is he serious?

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