OmegaRED

You've got to love this Pope

What's even more awesome is that we too can fight demons!

Pope's exorcist squads will wage war on Satan | the Daily Mail

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Falstaff

Living a christian lifestyle, emulating Christ, obeying the word of God, and demonstrating Christian vitues is not enough I am afraid, to defeat demons one must first defeat or master the demon within us. Even the righteous and pious must confront the same challenges as the unclean. A christian must believe in Christ as their savior, and that he died for our sins and trust in the Lord that their will be judgement one day, for sinners and faithful alike. Even now the word of the antichrist is spreading to doubt the existence of God, of Jesus Christ and the truth of the second coming.

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OmegaRED

Demonic possession used to scare the Hell out of me (no pun intended) when I was a kid. I think it's very telling that you won't see Atheists or followers of a religion which has no concept of possession become possessed. It is unique only to those who believe in it.

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Falstaff

If your going to quote me Omega please be accurate, out of courtesy or respect, your choice, but that is not my quote, this further diminishes the relevant content of this thread, frankly I am surprised at you. I will post no further on this thread.

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OmegaRED

With all due respect,

is the same as saying "The End is Near".

In any event, I don't care for your proselytizing anymore than you do for my sarcasm.

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OmegaRED

Just saw this on the top of Drudge:




Vatican denies exorcist expansion - UPI.com

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Kazeko

Just out of curiosity, why exactly are you posting this, Omega?


I ask, simply because Christian bashing, at this point, has become a bandwagon. Everyone wants to hammer on Christians blaming, pretty much anything on Christian Doctrine without taking the time to figure out any of the principles therein, merely hammering on what the TV feeds them, or what news outlets feel like Villanizing.

Al_Vampyre

The end might not be near but it would appear that the dark ages are!

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"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad" - Brian O'Driscoll - Ireland Rugby Team 2009 Grand Slam winning Captain.

OmegaRED

This is a "political and religious debate" forum and it's a controversial story, why wouldn't I post it?

Christians are developing a persecution complex which is simply unrealistic; the most Christians have to deal with is the occasional rude comment and attack on Christmas trees. I don't know of anyone in the media that is hostile towards Christianity, indeed, Atheist authors are the only people attacking Christian principles and their books don't sell as well as all the Christian bestsellers. Could you provide some examples of this villainizing?

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Falstaff

you have a singular wit, enjoy your sarcasm, as for me I am secure in my beliefs and I would hesiate in any attempt to discourage you from expressing your opinion.

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Kazeko

FOXNews.com - Colorado Church Gunman Had Grudge Against Christian Group, Cops Say - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News



I follow what you mean with the persecution complex, but understand that it's not just Christians. It's been going on for centuries among other religions in the world. While they may involve Christianity in some form, it's not necessarily JUST Christians.


The bigger criticism would be toward people who are trying to force their beliefs on others, or force others to live as one group thinks they should.
THAT I would credit you with, and agree. But to hit Christianity as a whole, blankets too many people that don't fit under the idea you're criticizing, but do fit under the category of "Christian."

OmegaRED

That story doesn't vilify Christians at all, the gunman was training for a position in the Church I'd hardly say he had anything against the religion. Also, the security guard who killed the gunman was deeply religious herself and I saw her profiled on the news as a hero who felt she was "guided by God".

Christians haven't been persecuted since the Romans yet somehow developed this complex. By playing the role of the victim this allows Christian leaders to push their agenda (creationism, no gay marriage, etc) and shields them from criticism. Islam does it even better mind you, people in Europe and North America are too afraid to speak out for fear of being branded intolerant, racist or even for fear of their lives.

Whenever I hear a Christian go on about the persecution of their faith I have to roll my eyes and wonder how that compares to the persecution of the Jews, Falun Gong, or any other faith which sees it's members in jail or murdered for their beliefs.

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Senor_Mota

WHOA, WHOA, Whoa, guys!! We (the Logical people of this forum) know that you can't gather a group of "clerics" to fight demons from beyond the bowels of hell - that's just preposterous. It sounds like a poorly-written Dungeon Master's attempt at sparking everyone's interest back into his Netheril campaign.

Most of you have lost sight of what's really important about believing in "God" (which ever "God" you worship) - your own personal salvation. They didn't coin the term 3000 years ago with the formation of Old English because they thought it sounded good. It simply means that by the power of your own will, your own hand, not "God's", you will save yourself from hell - Liberate Te Ex Infernis, as the Greeks put it.

This humble and singular phrase can not only keep your soul in check, but can erase the convolution and contempt that others hold for you when it comes to the worship of "God". The whole reason why organized religion doesn't truly represent divine worship is because it almost always becomes a social inclination - the poor people are poor because "their faith isn't strong enough". Rather than realizing that everyone has their place on this Earth being "a ditch-digger or a doctor", they simply present their financial desperation as blasphemy and that family becomes alienated, hardened and religiously ambiguous - all from one sour misinterpretation of faith.

Had the rich and "faithful" members of the clergy realized that the father of the family had just lost his job, had three kids to feed and a mountain of bills to climb before he could start paying them, they would have known that serving others in need is just another step towards personal salvation. That family would have stayed in church, the father wouldn't have become an alcoholic and subsequently lost his wife and kids to the embittered feelings of contempt that the "Righteous" members of the congregation projected towards them once long ago.

A life ruined, a soul shattered - for not only was the father not strong enough to defy the nay-saying that his pompous peers slung hatefully at him, but his peers had an undefined and distant state of being in touch with "God". Who are you to judge the judges? No one should fall into the "judged" category unless it's under legal representation.

The fact that Christians state that other Christians are wrong, or try to banish another human being to a life of desolation in hell simply based on belief, is just as preposterous as the Dungeon Master thinking that people still want to play D&D Version 2.0. Objectifying another's faith is a trait that "God" doesn't truly approve of - especially if you read the Bible.

This verse is in reference to Jesus being the Christ and Savior of humanity. The Jews persecuted and stoned him for claiming to believe in what he knew was true, calling him a "blasphemer" and "liar". Even Jesus had to deal with being wrong. But as the example shows, you have to endure a great deal of hardship and suffering to prove your point; and it was obviously prevalent enough due to about 25% percent of the population of Earth becoming Christian after Christ's death 2000 years ago. He didn't bitch when it got rough - he just kept spreading his word and worried about his own hide until the end.

The very cornerstone of Christian beliefs indicate that service of man and righteousness for the Lord are the keys to returning to God's presence; yet many of you spend more time making sure everyone else is doing "the right thing" and judging others who aren't "faithful". A good word of advice - Why don't you mind your own f*cking business and worry about yourself and the ones that you love? Really, they're the matter at hand - the less attention you pay to them and yourself, the less attention they'll pay to you and your skewed perception.

If you really want true happiness and warmth in your life, worry about your own personal salvation. Judge ye not, lest ye be judged.

And I'm not even a Christian.

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OmegaRED

To clarify, are you saying we shouldn't worry about our religious denomination but rather keeping our asses from going to Hell (by Hell I mean actual Hell, flames and torture for eternity)?

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mike2h

since i beleive in god i also believe in satan. & while i wont rule out possession as something real i think omega has a very valid point.
while either side of the argument cant be empirically proven(like most things related to religion) i also think that if possession is a fact, non believers would most likely be the least desirable for an act of possesion.
fyi omega, almost any religion - including the 'dead' ones - has some form of possession - which is to say that the ones that dont have it somewhere are a small minority. & i realise that doesnt change whta you said, just not sure if it is valid on several levels.

what & how are 'excorcist squads' supposed to stop satanism(wich is far less common than most think)?
assuming the found a group of satanists & actually determined that they were the real deal & not wannabes playing. what do they do, asume they are all possesed(even if they were real id doubt any of them would actually be possesed due to the problems that prohibit possessee's from interacting with other humans) & go in with crosses to the fore & holy h2o spraying everywhere? or do they lay in wait & ambush them individually & 'get' confessions from them?
bty didnt the catholic church used to have an 'army' that used to run around searching out evil & destroying it a couple of centuries ago?
while i firmally believe that it is everybodys responsibilty to hinder evil in whatever form it takes, dont know that the pope has got the right idea here.
besides i have killed many more demons, devils, etc, than any number of po0ntifs & their minions.

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OmegaRED

Regional differences also play a huge role. For example, why doesn't the Virgin Mary (or another mass religious sighting) ever occur in a non Christian nation? Believers will always see their religious symbolism, saints and Deities rather than another religion because that's what they've been programmed to see.

The Catholic Church is always far behind science and reasoning. How long did it take for the Church to realize there aren't any Witches?

Although, to the Church's credit the Bible does say "Suffer not a witch to live" and if the Bible says it then it must be true. Does anyone still believe in witches these days?

Witchcraft is not much different than Demonic Possession; we know that mentally ill people were thought possessed until medical advances and psychiatry showed us just how messed up people can be and not even be possessed! Just you see, in 50 years or so the Catholic Church will backtrack yet again and admit there's no such thing as Demonic Possession.

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Maddogg6

Good point Omega...
To me - the idea of a 'demon' started off as a parable to describe things like 'guilt' and 'remorse' (or psychological disorders as you hinted at) - *feelings* and conditions that words did not yet exist to describe these now commonly known psychological ideas.
Historically, God has gotten credit for everything not yet understood.

But one thing is for certain, I operate in this way in general; if a source of information has proven to be inaccurate - or needs some special person to properly interpret said information, its likely designed to manipulate/guide the 'sheep'. It *should* at the very least, cause a red flag to be raised - and force all to re-consider the validity of the information.

I think the whole bible started out as Psychology V.01 - and we are now on Psychology 501 - and the bible has evolved into 'fear mongering & mass manipulation - the Internship'.

That just makes so much more logical sense to me.

But maybe some god should get credit for the big bang? - its likely *no one* will ever convince me of this in either direction. For now, its only a possibility I would at least consider.

Can *anyone* produce a person that can perform mystical/magical unexplainable phenomenon (holy or otherwise 'evil') at will or some determined frequency that any joe, or scientist can freely investigate? - it hasnt happened yet -why not? because its a fairy tale - is the obvious deduction.

OmegaRED

I agree and I'll explain why. When people look around and see the marvelous things nature has to offer it often has the effect of creating belief in God. What amazes me is how they go from believing God created all this to picking the most convenient God to credit for all of it. The sheer number of man made Gods and religions suggests that they are all wrong and that if God does exist he is completely unknown to us.

I think people want to be led around like children, told what to do and how to think so they pick a God who requires those qualities of his followers. Whereas if you believed the Universe was created by some unknown God there's nothing to worship, no fairytales and nothing to be afraid of. Where's the comfort in that?

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Maddogg6

Oh - that, and - it just so happens, god only speaks to those who goto theological schools (?!? - anyone else making such claims are labeled a 'nutcase') - if god is so 'all knowing' - he would forseen the trouble with these so called 'demons' - and would also know that 'faith' is inherently flawed and illogical, would have warned/forseen that 'priest turned pedophile' (who also likely made some claim that god talked to him too) ...etc... this idea of god only makes sense if this god was some kind of sadist - I dont wish to believe that.

The whole notion of 'Faith', if anything - *is* *the* great evil of this world - as, it is the exact mechanism that makes; 'priest turned pedophile' and 'killing in the name of god' possible and *does* affect most all of our lives in some way or another. But yet, the use of logic, has been demonized over and over through out the ages. ?? wtf - what kind of god creates *this* kind of world? - The obvious answer is - 'none' - its all man made greed.

Sure, I get the whole 'why take a chance' mentality - but...

I wish religion (edit: spirituality - religion, being the institutions prescribing personal spirituality - theres no need for a 'church of fornication' is there?) was like how sex has been for centuries in the US - 'Everyone does it but no one talks about it. Its personal and stays in the bedroom.'

Which segues into something else....
Did cavemen have 'sex education classes'?
Of course not - fornication has come natural since well before sex ed was invented - no one really needed to 'beleive' or have faith in anything to make a baby. Just be shown the mechanics, and the proof popped out 9 months later - usually.

Now, no one argues that procreation is of course *very important* for the survival of a species... So why isnt 'Spirituality' the same? - if it *so* important - like the difference between heaven and hell for eternity, it should also be just as natural/simple. (edit: and if we *do* simplify these things, ideas like guilt, remores, and mental disabilities equating to the notions of 'demons' makes most sense logically)

No logical sense to these popular ideas of god. And what, with all the logic that dictates the rest of the universe (not all logic is understood, granted) - why is god (edit: Spirituality) so unique?

Few theologians directly answered those question with anything that resembled a logical answer. It always ends with 'gods will' at some point. Which actually is a theologians way of say 'hell if I know'... Few will actually say 'I don't know' which I also find interesting as well.

More importantly - how can you control people with out the fear of god/afterlife. ??

FuNsTeR

i have no time for Pope Adolf the 1st or his followers

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"They say when you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear satanic messages ..... but that's nothing, if you play it forward it will install Windows"

Senor_Mota

Well, yes, Omega. Yes. You do have personal accountability, right? You do manipulate your actions and face your own consequences, right?

Liberate Te Ex Infernis.

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Maddogg6

what about the mentally ill, are they accountable for all of their actions? ( in society?)

From: History of mental disorders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And:

Finally a hint to some reasonable sense...

And..

oops... the introduction of an 'exception to gods rules'

This sounds very similar to early US (Salem) - who were mostly christians.

Ahh - now them 'lunatics' (derived from the beleif that the moon had some affect on ones mental capacities ??) - becomes a source of some good old fashioned christian entertainment.

But now, they are prayed for by some, and most won't offer any 'new' opinions from god. - But some will, and those that do - will obviously conflict with gods old opinion - does god change his mind, in the eternal sense of time, as quick as a woman does? (ok, sexist remark, sorry, but its used effectively to make a point.)
According to this - its argued amongst the church members...
internetmonk.com » Blog Archive » The Christian and Mental Illness III: Is Mental Illness Demonic or the Result of Sin?

When clearly; many mental disorders have been proven to be chemically related in the brain. But the bible thumpers continue to argue over it.
Instead of putting energy where science has made the most progress in treating and preventing at least some cases. Erm, I mean, with out actually killing them or locking them up in some theater/mental facility.

OmegaRED

Hell is improbable but if it did exist, easily avoidable, convert to Islam then blow up some unbelievers and you'll be sitting in Heaven with 72 virgins rather than rotting in Hell for murder.

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OmegaRED

Holy smokes I hope this wasn't Senor Mota trying to get the evil out of him.

Local News | Idaho man sees "mark of the beast," cuts off and microwaves hand | Seattle Times Newspaper

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mike2h

i think the dispute over his 'mental illness' is at an end.

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Maddogg6

'speak of the devil'

for whom? - this guy is still alive and while his mind ?may? be more at ease - surely his suffering has been displaced to living his life one handed - best case scenario that is. For all we know next week he'll see the same allusive marks on his other hand - what would he do then? That is, if he continues on untreated.

mike2h

do you post drivel like this just to be argumentative? or are you truly this obtuse?

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OmegaRED

He's a mad dog you gotta shoot him to stop him.

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mike2h

hes mad about something. think my paintball gun will do the job? maybe if i freeze them.
that worked for a skunk problem i had. they were coming through our property 7-10 a night & sometimes 2-3 at a time. really stunk the place up...

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Senor_Mota

...And once again, everything is now moot.

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