JOEBIALEK

On this 35th anniversary of the Roe v. Wade decision, I would like to share my views on the issue of abortion.

Life begins at the point of conception. No one can deny that after a human being is conceived it will develop into the very same being as those debating this issue. What astounds me is that those who favor abortion went through an identical development stage as the being they are condemning to death. Would these very same people agree that a similiar choice should have been made about their own existence? Abortion today is used primarily as a birth control of convenience because people are too self-centered to take precautions. They prefer their own pleasurable self-indulgence over the care and sanctity of the life they created. What ever happened to taking responsibility for one's actions in this country? Is it too much to ask a woman who has conceived to place the child into adoption? Nine months of discomfort is nothing compared to life in prison for voluntary manslaughter! Does the father of the child have a say in this? And what about the constitution of the United States? Are not all people conceived in this country deserving of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? I believe abortion is a crime against humanity and should be outlawed. We need to overturn the Roe v. Wade decision and get back to cherishing life in this country. For a country that murders it's children cannot be far from self destruction.

OmegaRED

Question for you Joe (and anyone else who is Anti-Abortion),

If Abortion is murder and murder is a punishable crime then what should the punishment for women who have abortions be? Should they be put in jail for life or given the death penalty? I await your response.

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Zelig

Well, I suppose I'll go ahead and share my views on your views, in that case...

It's difficult to be consistent with this point of view. What about life that is created without conception, or identical twins, when do their lives start?

If kept in the proper environment, and cared for appropriately, an embryo after conception has the potential to develop into a human being. The exact same statement can be made of a human egg, before fertilization. If kept in the proper environment, and cared for appropriately, a human egg has the potential to develop into a human being.

People don't favour abortion, they favour the right of a woman to choose what she wants to do with her body.

No, but most people have brain activity. Tapeworms have more neural activity than embryos do before a certain point.

A good reason to advocate other methods of birth control.

People create skin cells all the time, do skin cells deserve care and sanctity as well?

It is too much to force a woman to carry what is effectively a parasite in her body against her will.

Good thing abortion is legal in the developed world, and women who get them aren't going to prison.

No.

Not applicable to most of the world.

People, yes, however, fetuses are not people. Similar to how an egg isn't a chicken.

Crimes against humanity are defined as attacks against civilian populations. Fetuses are not part of any civilian population.

Right, because clearly North America, Europe and Asia are all on the brink of destruction when compared Africa, South America and the Middle East.

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OmegaRED

I would also like to know if you are against abortion in the cases where a woman has been raped, has a medical condition and giving birth would kill her, has a disease or drug addiction which would cause birth difficulties to the child.

In these cases it would be the womans choice and perhaps if her life is in danger the family or doctors choice.

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Maddogg6

I think the laws as is - are about as 'fair' as they ever could be..

Consider this situation...

A woman mis-caries - is she now suspect of murder? Perhaps negligent homicide?

Or...
What about rape victims - do you *really* think that child would be loved like one conceived with a loved one? Hell, I seen first hand, hatred for the father aimed at the child after a divorce - that kid, is in prison at 17 years old.

What 'typically' happens to kids from rape? Any studies on this? I have doubts that the majority become 'valued citizens', but are more likely 'problems for society' - making yet more un-wanted children and perpetuating the 'dysfunctional' family lineage.

To that point - if abortions become illegal... how many guys will be charged with Rape just so the woman can be allowed an abortion (assuming the above exception would be available)
Do *you* want to be the one wrongly accused of rape (DNA tests confirm it) - when it was consentual...??? How many times has this already happen from scared girls too afraid to admit to mommy and daddy -'I made a mistake and a baby'.

Making abortions illegal would, imho, likely cause bigger issues like the above that would be more devastating to a *known* life - than an unknown life (miscarried, suffering from un-treatable disease etc..) - aka embryo.

making abortions illegal will also cause blackmarket abortions more popular...
Look at all the problems *that* would expose us all too.
"The FBI raids an illegal abortion clinic, 3 waiting patients were killed from crossfire during the raid"

Where would the ramifications of this law end?
To me - 'life' as defined currently seems most fair and logical for both sides of this argument.


1) my parents were smart enough to not make a baby they could not take care of - what about those kids that; sure they breath air - thus, 'alive' - but are latch key kids, never get attention from over-worked parents, basically raise them selves - is this more fair? not to me.

2) Its also argued that; what if medicine can predict if an embryo will develop with some un-treatable disease or condition, is it 'moral' to abort that embryo?
On one hand, there are likely mothers out there that would be able to handle the extra care needed for that child - but I also know, there are many who could not. Do you abort then? But thats another debate I suppose.. ??

All in all I think abortion is, and should be, a personal decision and should be based on *their* beliefs and *their* circumstances alone.

Too many laws already besides - its already getting to be; a need in public schools to teach all the laws in this country - like reading or math.

OmegaRED

Not for nothing, but I noticed JOEBIALEK posts these standard opinion pieces word for word in various forums then doesn't post again. He's little more than a bot. While I don't think that's against the rules here it does waste everyones time, this is a debate forum and if you're not gonna stick around for a debate this thread should be locked/deleted.

View topic - Abortion - PE.com Forums
BestSyndication Forums :: View topic - Abortion
Abortion - AudioReview Forums
Abortion - Wisconsin Forums at theBubbler

It goes on and on... just type "JOEBIALEK abortion" in Google you'll see he's done this hundreds of times.

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dj_stick

normally i'd agree - but I would like to leave this thread here to let the members of driverheaven to discuss their view on the issue

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OmegaRED

I disagree, if a real member wants to make a thread about abortion they will do so.

Leaving this thread up just wastes all of our time as we're responding to him and he's a hit and run spammer.

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dj_stick

i don't mean for everyone to respond to the OP, but to respond to each other - that's the spirit of this forum, open debate by all

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Zelig

I noticed the same, but he's been a member here for a while, and actually has responded to other posters.

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OmegaRED

All he said was "good points" months later. He's a bot or something man.

So far we're all in agreement, so where's the debate?

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dj_stick

like you said, so far, it's been less than three hours since the thread was posted

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CDsDontBurn

i was going to make a post earlier, but they are pretty much in-line with what Maddogg6 have said.

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OmegaRED

Where's Falstaff or Hawgshead when we need them? I bet one of those two would have some anti-abortion thoughts

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Maddogg6

eeh - leave it - we win - lets keep it as a trophy
Besides future 'searches' will still find this too. (I dont mind having the pro-choice side indexed by google...)

I think the OP isnt so much a bot - but a human automating things, obviously joining forums for the sole purpose to promote pro-life propaganda, possibly to get feedback from the presumed user types of that forum ('lots of game/pc geeks here - and not many contributing to the pro-life side' ... type of 'research' - seems like those forums he posted to, cover a very wide range of interests/personality types.... its brilliant imho if so).

Probably at work supporting the troops, who, are probably practicing to kill someone (deemed a 'life' by current laws) for money

cozumel

I definitely think that abortion is used as an easy get out clause for men and woman who don't know how to have responsible sex. I personally do not agree with abortion for reasons other than rape, a life-threatening condition in the mother, extreme poverty whereby the welfare of the child is at risk or where either parent is deemed unfit to bring up a child. It is morally wrong to destroy an embryio (nothing to do with religion). If you don't want a baby then don't have unprotected sex. Simple.

I would also like to correct the OP and a couple of others who have implied that everything in the decision should revolve around the woman. It should, in most cases, be a decision that is undertaken jointly by both partners as they have both been responsible for the creation of the embryio and will be for its upbringing should the famale give birth.

Everything else in the replies I agree with.

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Judas

life begins and ends in mutlti billions of trillions to the power OF billions of trillions.... daily....

We, as well as they, murder on such a mass amount, that it's litterly impossible to really conceive.

Life, as we know it, and others tend to refer to a set of cells developing into something such as a infant has various stages that everyone has thier own opinion on which is the murder stage.

Frankly, at just about as wide an angel on life in general, every time you use any form of bacterial soap, take a shower, scrub your teeth, etc. you are essentially murdering life forms, where you know for sure, even if current science and theology states they have no form of "awareness" or thought in a manner of speaking.... your still purposely killing them. and NO, there are usually more GOOD bacterial living things usually present on and in your body then there is bad!, so don't use an excuse to side step that point... aka fact.

But as for my personal standpoint on it, aborting, while not imo thing to do, it completely leave that up to the person having it...... they shouldn't abort after the stage where there is enough matter to make up even the minute trace of brain matter, or what would form a higher intelligence abilities. But IF you want to really push the facts, most children probably don't become fully aware until several months AFTER being born. They might have the learning abilities, but single specific identity isn't completely set in stone, and fully realized by the child until much later after birth.

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Neshi

ah, maybe they use abortion as anti-conception in America but in Europe that isn't really the case with the majority. And I think abortion should/stay legal. A condom that rippes, rape, illness of the mother and whatnot. If abortion would be illegal it would be too hard to control and regulate the abortions. You'd get little (illegal) shops where they would offer their services without the proper instruments.

I think banning abortion would cause more problems then keeping it legal.

And about the point the OP made. I wouldn't mind if I was the one being aborted. I don't think I would have felt it, or even realized they were killing me. I would just seize to exist...

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If one does not attach himself to people and desire, never shall his heart be broken. But then, does he ever truly live?

Life is just too damn short for if's and maybe's

cozumel

That has to be one of the bizarre posts I've ever read. Are you not glad to be alive?

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Neshi

you have to read everything i post...
sure I'm glad to be alive, but if I was aborted I wouldn't know I had a potential future would I. "I don't think I would have felt it, or even realized they were killing me. I would just seize to exist..."
I don't think the fetuses 'feel' or 'realize' they are being aborted, so they don't know their life is being ended. In that way, I wouldn't mind being aborted, as I wouldn't have realized I had a life in the first place.

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If one does not attach himself to people and desire, never shall his heart be broken. But then, does he ever truly live?

Life is just too damn short for if's and maybe's

cozumel

Thanks for the clarification. I did read your entire post but just wasn't sure if the comments went together or if they were separate points you were making. I'm just happy that you are happy and have no suicidal ideation lol. I was a bit worried for a minute.

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Neshi

haha no need mate. I'll keep on living

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If one does not attach himself to people and desire, never shall his heart be broken. But then, does he ever truly live?

Life is just too damn short for if's and maybe's

>GSXR<mrbusa

This is not meant as a troll statement.......

If the anti abortion believers really cared about life and the longevity of the human race then they would consider other factors into there reasoning other than just wanting to tell people what is right and what is wrong. Abortion should not be used as a means for birth control, but lets face it, most abortions are performed on young teenagers that are never going to change. The earths resources and society should not have to take on the burden of caring for these future bastard children. If a female gets pregnant and she is not married or if she is and the couple doesn't meet certain financial guideline and background check then there should be a mandatory abortion.
There should also be a limit to the amount of children people can produce no matter what there means. I am so sick of going to pick my son up from school and seeing a mom there picking up four or five kids from the same grade school. All of them in goodwill clothing and skinny as a cancer patients. This is the reason my son has to be in a classroom with 40 or so kids for one teacher and one aid that barley speaks english.
I could write a book of all my OPINIONS of why abortion should be even more readily available and even mandatory but I will stop there.
Birth control should be all that is needed to prevent abortions but it is not, I wish it was so don't go calling me a baby killer. I am just a realist and do not believe in some FANTASY higher power that is going to strike me down because I believe in population control.

Neshi

^^ I agree ^^

although they shouldn't make abortion mandatory.
In China they had the 1-child politics for a while (maybe they still do) and i think they should implement that everywhere. it would solve alot and people who had more then 1 child should get a fine. and abortion should be watched closely so people that would like a girl/boy and when it can be seen the child they carry isn't the gender they desired, an abortion would be no option.
because in china there are now alot of boys because of the 1child politics, cos boys are better in supporting(money) the old parents then girls.

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If one does not attach himself to people and desire, never shall his heart be broken. But then, does he ever truly live?

Life is just too damn short for if's and maybe's

OmegaRED

I disagree, while the couple does have their individual choices the mans expires the moment he has sex, if she gets pregnant it's her decision what to do with the fetus.

That's more or less how I see it too. Whenever a man masturbates he's killing millions of sperm should this be outlawed too?

I have a problem with the fundamental belief of anti-abortionists, that all life is precious, it's a biological function and not a gift from the Gods. A woman could give birth like a rabbit if she spent her whole life making babies...is that precious? A man could line up 100 ovulating women and impregnate them all (if he's Peter North). Is that precious?

The beauty in life isn't in making babies it's in how they are raised.

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Judas

omfg, i spelt angle as angel.. rotfl....

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Maddogg6

VERY TRUE - too much emphasis on 'the miracle of life' and too little on 'raising' - which to me is the real miracle - hell, it takes sooo little skill to make a baby, but raising healthy and fit (mentally) is a whole different story - I see too many people who lack those skills and their children are the proof (are now a burden to society).
Does our society need more burdens if they can be prevented??

Is abortion an 'easy out' for un-responsible sex - YES. no argument there.
Is making it illegal going to some how miraculously make people more responsible? - I have serious doubts....

Driving past the speed limit is illegal too, is dangerous etc.. but THAT in its self is like a micro-economy when talking about collecting fines from speeders.
Bottom line - making abortion illegal wont stop it from happening.

Also, I believe its quite a struggle for most women to make that decision and *not* like a decision of what dress to wear, or what ever. To assume *most* women just decide to abort on a whim - to me, is a sign of disrespect to women in general. It seem to indicate they think women are not capable of making that decision. This ideology sound frightening similar to religious rhetoric - Most (if not) all high clergy are men, Jehovah's witness' say women have no soul (or used to anyway) and 'women are not capable of making decisions'... Or is that just me that makes that connection ??

Old prison inmate to new inmate:
old: 'What are ya in fur?'
new: 'Genocide'
old: 'Wow, can I be *your* biatch?'

lol - and how the hell do you enforce *that* law....
'Your under arrest, we found sperm on your bed, too much to be nocturnal emmisions'

Oh - the ramifications sure seem like it could get quite ... erm... sticky...

OmegaRED

Here's a great vid

What anti-abortion demonstrators said when asked what the punishment should be for women who got abortions if abortion became illegal. Thats quite amazing how these people are so contradictory. Its murder... but its murder that should go unpunished...

Asking Anti-Abortion Demonstrators an Important Question at Shoutfile.com

Unfortunately, no one has yet answered that question in this thread

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cozumel

Well, it's a pretty crap debate as everyone more-or-less agrees with one-another (with only subtle differences). The only one who maybe wants to put forward a different view is the OP and he/she has sadly gone missing. Makes for a pointless thread...

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OmegaRED

That's what I've been saying

We're all choir members here. The Bible Thumpers aren't coming near this thread

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