[digerati]

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

Did you not find it even coincidental that Christianity takes so many things from previous religions and rolled it all into one? Virgin birth, messiah, afterlife, resurrection, etc it's all been done before Christianity or Judaism existed. The fact that one religion became more popular does not make it any more factual than the hundreds that died out before it. You should know this if you've studied enough ancient cultures.

Unlike religion, which is based on archaic scriptures which never evolve, scientific knowledge is an ongoing process.

Scientific method refers to the body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. It is based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation, experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.

There are hundreds of thousands of drugs and medical advances which have resulted because of the scientific method. How many diseases has God eradicated? None, zip, zilch, nada...zero.

Fear of death will make people turn to anything that can save them, whether it's a scam artist selling miracle cures or the church. It won't matter whether you turn to Allah, Yahweh, God, Zeus or Thor the result will always be the same. You will get from it what you want. This may be comforting to people but it does not make it real.

Which God? Your God? My God? If there's one real God and all the rest are fake than why doesn't He come forward and reveal himself to all of humanity in ways that are undeniable? So far the best all the Gods have been able to do is some old writings. Wow...mighty impressive for the creator of the Universe

There is so much that has been previously credited to God that we now know has a scientific explanation, this puts egg in the faces of Church leaders constantly and it will always be this way.

We do not get our morals from God (thankfully!), there is tons of information on how we evolved our social skills. Go find it yourself with Google.

If God is the explanation for things of which there is no evidence whatsoever then how can I argue with this? Humanity isn't extinct...God did it! We don't rape and murder everyone...God did it! This is simply just lazy and unimaginative thinking.

Christianity does borrow a lot from all sorts of religions, but the whole virgin birth idea comes from Judaism, spoken from the prophet Isaiah, and the Jews weren't really hip to incorporating stuff from other Gods into their religion. Actually I think they put people to death for that kind of stuff o.O

Modern Christianity still hasn't accepted its own roots, they worship on the wrong scriptural day, Christmas is a joke, as well as Easter, yadda yadda. But cultures in general are like that.

Religion is based on scripture as well as experiences, personal experiences.

We all know how science works, but as I said, science requires more faith, because it always changing, it's much harder to trust your friend who keeps changing his opinions, beliefs, and habits as opposed to the one that stays constant and true.

The whole fear of death thing? Hm, I don't really fear death. Christians put the most emphasis on the afterlife, Jews not so much, we don't even have hell in our scripture, so we're not exactly afraid of burning for all eternity.

Out of curiosity, which religious scriptures or books have you actually read? I'm not talking commentaries about scripture, but the actual scriptures themselves.

And evolving social skills doesn't explain anything about a base set of morals. Why do 2 completely different cultures in different parts of the world act similarly? When one is white and the other is black. If their lives are so different that they evolved into different colors, why would their morals be similar?

And why doesn't God come forward? Simple. Because he doesn't have to, he doesn't owe us anything, we owe him. Would you rather give your son the tools to find out what's right and wrong for himself, or would you step forward at every step and go VOILA! BEHOLD I AM THE GREAT OMEGA RED AND YOU ARE WRONG! Meh.

And he clearly showed himself to the Jews of old, otherwise, how to you explain them? Their struggle through thousands of years of persecution, in belief of a God who only seems to put them trials, it makes absolutely no sense. Yet they went without a country for 2,000 years and remained a people, name me any other culture that's done that.

[Sandok]

Originally Posted by digerati

We all know how science works, but as I said, science requires more faith, because it always changing, it's much harder to trust your friend who keeps changing his opinions, beliefs, and habits as opposed to the one that stays constant and true.

And evolving social skills doesn't explain anything about a base set of morals. Why do 2 completely different cultures in different parts of the world act similarly? When one is white and the other is black. If their lives are so different that they evolved into different colors, why would their morals be similar?

I won't answer the rest since it's aimed at Omega but here are the answers to these two comments.

Firstly, science requires 0 faith. If you are using faith to believe in science, then you don't know science at all. Anything that exists in science, once proven to be a LAW (gravity for example), it will never change and that's a fact that can be PROVEN by books, calculations, etc.

Things that do change are the THEORIES that, by definition, are not laws and thus, aren't sure to be right (though a scientific theory is not understood the same way as a "theory" in everyday english. Basically, a theory is the most PROBABLE scenario out of many).

Anyways, can you give me an example of something in science, a major law or theory that has recently changed?

As for the moral thingy, did you know that over 50% of your personality is decided during the genetic makeup? I mean, before you are even born, 50% of who YOU are is already done so your parents just had the other 50% to work on? Interesting no, something as complex as personality is decided by numbers and shapes and sizes (DNA and proteins and such).

Same goes with morals, they are printed IN our genetic makeup. A few years ago, in some Asian country (Cambodia or something), a young teen was found in the woods where she had been living ever since she had been abandoned by her parents... She didn't speak any human language, didn't understand and hadn't seen a human in her life (or religion) but she didn't act animal like around other people. In fact, she was quite "humane" so even a person without ANY interraction with people for over 13-14 years had the basic morales (don't kill others, not the crap like don't eat pigs or don't masturbate or whatnot).

My point is, you missunderstand just how much we actually do know about the world around us.

[digerati]

Originally Posted by Sandok

I won't answer the rest since it's aimed at Omega but here are the answers to these two comments.

Firstly, science requires 0 faith. If you are using faith to believe in science, then you don't know science at all. Anything that exists in science, once proven to be a LAW (gravity for example), it will never change and that's a fact that can be PROVEN by books, calculations, etc.

Things that do change are the THEORIES that, by definition, are not laws and thus, aren't sure to be right (though a scientific theory is not understood the same way as a "theory" in everyday english. Basically, a theory is the most PROBABLE scenario out of many).

Anyways, can you give me an example of something in science, a major law or theory that has recently changed?

As for the moral thingy, did you know that over 50% of your personality is decided during the genetic makeup? I mean, before you are even born, 50% of who YOU are is already done so your parents just had the other 50% to work on? Interesting no, something as complex as personality is decided by numbers and shapes and sizes (DNA and proteins and such).

Same goes with morals, they are printed IN our genetic makeup. A few years ago, in some Asian country (Cambodia or something), a young teen was found in the woods where she had been living ever since she had been abandoned by her parents... She didn't speak any human language, didn't understand and hadn't seen a human in her life (or religion) but she didn't act animal like around other people. In fact, she was quite "humane" so even a person without ANY interraction with people for over 13-14 years had the basic morales (don't kill others, not the crap like don't eat pigs or don't masturbate or whatnot).

My point is, you missunderstand just how much we actually do know about the world around us.

That was my point, that morals are genetic, and that seems a little out there for me to go with it being ingrained in us due to social interactions.

You want a law that has recently been changed or replaced? Well it depends on your scope of recent, let's go with Newton's LAW of Universal Gravitation that was found to not be accurate for predicting the orbit of Mercury, it is flawed, therefore not a fact, and has been superseded by Einstein's THEORY of Relativity. But Newton's Law is still kept around because the calculations are easier if indeed flawed. So there's that.

I'm just saying I think it's pretty interesting that science changes constantly, yet no one thinks there's any faith behind it. Personally I have to give a lot of my faith when it comes time to switching asthma medications. If the medication doesn't work, then I don't breathe, so I might not survive the switch. My best friend (former member of DH) is putting a lot of faith in his new doctors. If they don't treat him correctly, he will be losing his colon in the near future. And at 22 years old, he's got a long time to live without a butthole >.<

[Sandok]

Originally Posted by digerati

That was my point, that morals are genetic, and that seems a little out there for me to go with it being ingrained in us due to social interactions.

You want a law that has recently been changed or replaced? Well it depends on your scope of recent, let's go with Newton's LAW of Universal Gravitation that was found to not be accurate for predicting the orbit of Mercury, it is flawed, therefore not a fact, and has been superseded by Einstein's THEORY of Relativity. But Newton's Law is still kept around because the calculations are easier if indeed flawed. So there's that.

I'm just saying I think it's pretty interesting that science changes constantly, yet no one thinks there's any faith behind it. Personally I have to give a lot of my faith when it comes time to switching asthma medications. If the medication doesn't work, then I don't breathe, so I might not survive the switch. My best friend (former member of DH) is putting a lot of faith in his new doctors. If they don't treat him correctly, he will be losing his colon in the near future. And at 22 years old, he's got a long time to live without a butthole >.<

Genetic doesn't mean God. It means evolution but then again, you probably don't believe in evolution (and that's another topic).

As for Newton's gravity, it's not wrong at all. If it where wrong, nuclear phsyics, our understanding of time in space and MUCH more wouldn't function and well.... they do. Newton did his experiments on Earth and didn't take into account the differences that occure in space, which Einstein did. Combined, the results are perfect (we think) though these RESULTS might change.

The LAWS or THEORIES in both cases, didn't. Text books weren't rewritten.

As for faith in science, you're putting faith in the PEOPLE who made the medicine. Not the medicine itself because you can't really see the chemical or organic reactions that help your asthma. You're hoping the PEOPLE behind it, who engineered the product made something that worked.

Same way that you don't DOUBT gravity every morning, or DOUBT that the sun is a nuclear fission reactor making heat. You accept them because they are right and these are scientific properties. Doctors and such are BASED of science but they are applying it how they want, not the same.

If you mix those two notions, then yes what you say is true... but wrong

[digerati]

Originally Posted by Sandok

Genetic doesn't mean God. It means evolution but then again, you probably don't believe in evolution (and that's another topic).

As for Newton's gravity, it's not wrong at all. If it where wrong, nuclear phsyics, our understanding of time in space and MUCH more wouldn't function and well.... they do. Newton did his experiments on Earth and didn't take into account the differences that occure in space, which Einstein did. Combined, the results are perfect (we think) though these RESULTS might change.

The LAWS or THEORIES in both cases, didn't. Text books weren't rewritten.

As for faith in science, you're putting faith in the PEOPLE who made the medicine. Not the medicine itself because you can't really see the chemical or organic reactions that help your asthma. You're hoping the PEOPLE behind it, who engineered the product made something that worked.

Same way that you don't DOUBT gravity every morning, or DOUBT that the sun is a nuclear fission reactor making heat. You accept them because they are right and these are scientific properties. Doctors and such are BASED of science but they are applying it how they want, not the same.

If you mix those two notions, then yes what you say is true... but wrong

If you were to look at my old posts, you'd find that I do believe in evolution. You can't deny evolution exists when we see it in rapid succession in diseases and viruses, we have proof of it working. That doesn't mean I think we happened exactly the same way. I'll come back and post later, I kinda gotta jam.

[Esaz666]

It is a problem, scripture.It is mainly out of date and has different meanings
to us than it did to someone, say 1000 to 2000 years ago, because language changes its meanings. Again just because scripture may or may not be relevant to our current life, it does not mean that there is no spiritual force within the universe.

We as people should trust our own experiences over all other things, written or communicated.If you cannot trust yourself , you fall into the trap of misinformation and leave yourself open to be fooled, try it for a while, keep the tv off, stop reading the bad news in the papers, experience nature, stop and be yourself, not what your told you are.

We are continually bombarded by information, nearly all of it meaningless.
There are things you can discover about the nature of life, if you give yourself time, there is potential for growth, what you can discover through your own efforts is authentic, not borrowed from elsewhere.

[Sandok]

Originally Posted by digerati

If you were to look at my old posts, you'd find that I do believe in evolution. You can't deny evolution exists when we see it in rapid succession in diseases and viruses, we have proof of it working. That doesn't mean I think we happened exactly the same way. I'll come back and post later, I kinda gotta jam.

That's like saying you believe that food feeds animals but not us? Or something along those lines...

If evolution works for bacteria (a virus is not technically a living organism if ever), it works for us all...

[OmegaRED]

This may me lol

[Sandok]

I love circular debates

[Mousey]

The bible is god's word written by man. Effectively meaning it's the author's word.

[digerati]

Originally Posted by Sandok

That's like saying you believe that food feeds animals but not us? Or something along those lines...

If evolution works for bacteria (a virus is not technically a living organism if ever), it works for us all...

No it's not, that's like saying if penicillin works for me, it should work for her, but it doesn't always work that way.

[digerati]

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

This may me lol

Yeah I hate those people. haha

[Sandok]

Originally Posted by digerati

No it's not, that's like saying if penicillin works for me, it should work for her, but it doesn't always work that way.

That's wrong, it always works... Chemically and biologically, the effects are happening but how the symptoms are healed is different.

You fail to understand this notion somehow... Okay, best example I have. You're saying something along these lines: "Gravity works in the US but not in Europe".

It's wrong

[OmegaRED]

Damn, another church shooting already!

Police: Man shot churchgoers over liberal views

That's why I don't go to Church, it's just too dangerous.

[Snow Eater]

Originally Posted by Sandok

That's wrong, it always works... Chemically and biologically, the effects are happening but how the symptoms are healed is different.

You fail to understand this notion somehow... Okay, best example I have. You're saying something along these lines: "Gravity works in the US but not in Europe".

It's wrong

Your example is bad.
What you're saying is that since gravity works everywhere, that must mean it explains everything.
By the logic you are presenting, gravity will explain all forces and movement.
That is simply not true as other forces will explain many movements that gravity is essentially a non-factor in even though gravity is always working.

[Mousey]

Originally Posted by Snow Eater

Your example is bad.
What you're saying is that since gravity works everywhere, that must mean it explains everything.
By the logic you are presenting, gravity will explain all forces and movement.
That is simply not true as other forces will explain many movements that gravity is essentially a non-factor in even though gravity is always working.

BUUUUT This is turning from a religion debate to a physics debate so back on track? Let's discuss the bible for instance. I find it quite entertaining to grill christians that stop me when i'm out doing parkour about the bible.
If you refer to my earlier post, i state;

The bible is god's word written by man. Effectively meaning it's the author's word.

And as i'm sure we're aware, the author would have been a human, a homo sapien, one of us. One of us that makes mistakes and is susceptible to greed. It's not like god decided to write it and give one to adam in the garden of eden.

To be perfectly honest i don't have a problem with religions other than christianity, the reason i have beefs with christianity is because there are very apparent holes they refuse to acknowledge and i often have their beliefs thrown in my face and have them all but drag me to the church. That's never happened with another religion, at least Jahova's Witnesses ask if i want to hear about their religion! (And the women they send are hawt. lol)
I do in fact know a girl that's a Jahova's Witness from school, she's a very pleasent and lovely girl. Christian girls i know on the other hand are often bitchy and unpleasent. But perhaps that's just puberty.

[Sandok]

Originally Posted by Snow Eater

Your example is bad.
What you're saying is that since gravity works everywhere, that must mean it explains everything.
By the logic you are presenting, gravity will explain all forces and movement.
That is simply not true as other forces will explain many movements that gravity is essentially a non-factor in even though gravity is always working.

No that's now what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, gravity is a Law that is always working, correct? I never said it explains all mouvement or something along those lines. I just said it works wherever you are on our planet (and more).

Do you float off into space when you visit Austrailia or India? No, you stick to the Earth and that is all down to gravity. It's a LAW that's applied to everyone and while it doesn't explain why cars move (and I never said it did or any other mouvement), it explains why you stick to this Earth even though it's roatating at several thousand kilomters per hour no?

[Snow Eater]

Originally Posted by Mousey

BUUUUT This is turning from a religion debate to a physics debate so back on track? Let's discuss the bible for instance. I find it quite entertaining to grill christians that stop me when i'm out doing parkour about the bible.
If you refer to my earlier post, i state;
And as i'm sure we're aware, the author would have been a human, a homo sapien, one of us. One of us that makes mistakes and is susceptible to greed. It's not like god decided to write it and give one to adam in the garden of eden.

To be perfectly honest i don't have a problem with religions other than christianity, the reason i have beefs with christianity is because there are very apparent holes they refuse to acknowledge and i often have their beliefs thrown in my face and have them all but drag me to the church. That's never happened with another religion, at least Jahova's Witnesses ask if i want to hear about their religion! (And the women they send are hawt. lol)
I do in fact know a girl that's a Jahova's Witness from school, she's a very pleasent and lovely girl. Christian girls i know on the other hand are often bitchy and unpleasent. But perhaps that's just puberty.

I'm unsure why you're directing this to me.
Is there something you'd like me to respond to here?

[Snow Eater]

Originally Posted by Sandok

No that's now what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, gravity is a Law that is always working, correct?

Sure.

Originally Posted by Sandok

I never said it explains all mouvement or something along those lines. I just said it works wherever you are on our planet (and more).

Gravity is a force, forces explain movement.
You are drawing an analogy between evolution "always working" and gravity "always working".

I'm pointing out that even though gravity is "always working" there are some things that can be described by gravity, but other things that gravity is not enough to explain.

If we then move back to the evolution question, you should be able to see the point that even though evolution may be able to explain some things, the fact that evolution happens is no reason to assume without questioning that it must therefore explain everything.

[Sandok]

Originally Posted by Snow Eater

Gravity is a force, forces explain movement.
You are drawing an analogy between evolution "always working" and gravity "always working".

I'm pointing out that even though gravity is "always working" there are some things that can be described by gravity, but other things that gravity is not enough to explain.

If we then move back to the evolution question, you should be able to see the point that even though evolution may be able to explain some things, the fact that evolution happens is no reason to assume without questioning that it must therefore explain everything.

Well tell me, what CAN'T be explained by gravity? I'm curious to know what mouvement we do (and that is not down to muscle mouvement, or anything about physical properties of objects) is not explainable? Because that would be something new...

Evolution sits in the same bag of science as The origins of the Planet / Moon / Dinosaurs / etc. Hell it has the same dilemma as the Pangea theory. If people can't see it (and all these questions and theories can only be TRUELY ANSWERED for the spectical and non specilist in the domain by going back in time... which we can't), then they can only stay a theory and never be verified!

How do we knnow the Grand Canyon was carved out by a river... We didn't see the process happen so how can it be true? Sure, we say erosion of miniscule amounts happen in ONE lifetime but maybe thats not true over ten thousand lifetimes (just replace Grand Canyon with Evolution).

[Snow Eater]

Originally Posted by Sandok

Well tell me, what CAN'T be explained by gravity? I'm curious to know what mouvement we do (and that is not down to muscle mouvement, or anything about physical properties of objects) is not explainable? Because that would be something new...

I'm not referring to anything new or unexplainable.
We are currently aware of 4 fundamental forces. Gravity is only one of them.
There are strong, electromagnetic and weak also.

Even though gravity "always works", much of what we observe in the universe can't be explained by gravity alone, even though our knowledge of these other forces was non-existant in the past.

So, to take us back to the where I pointed out the flaw in your logic, simply asking when evolution does NOT work is no proof that evolution actually explains everything. Clearly we MUST be missing something because Evolution can only explain speciation and can't offer an explanation of the actual origin of life.

[Sandok]

Alluding to the infamous missing links are we? The tree of life is not completed, that I agree with you but a small gap in the branches here and there doesn't mean we can't see the general shape of the tree.

Don't forget, the only proof of Darwin's theory is technically, fossils (please tell me you believe in fossils at least... and carbon dating) that erode, dissapear and such. Even though, since the theory of evolution came out, those "holes" have been filled to great extent but it seems that unless it's a 100% explained, nobody will be happy and again, I allude to other "facts" that aren't truely explainable without going back into the past but today, they are (Pangea comes to mind).

And as for gravity not explaining everything, well we have barely begun exploring the true power of outerspace. Dark matter, dark energy, multiverse, etc, all these things are just being discovered, give it time.

But one thing you are saying that is fundamentally wrong is that, with our lovely gravity example, you're acting as if I'm saying that every mouvement in our solar system / galaxy / universe is being pinned on gravity... It isn't. The only things being pinned on gravity are well, because of gravity.

As for evolution, it doesn't explain everything but whatever we say is because of evolution (for example, monkeys to chimps to homo-sapiens to us (homo sapien sapiens)) is because of evolution.

Actually, do you believe in the fact that the Earth is only 5000 years old or do you agree that it's billions of years old?

[SeraphicSorcerer]

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

A christian will likely say something like 'because god gave us free will' - as if he chose to give him self some kind of challenge. It makes no sense to me either - but thats the argument I have heard before. too me - its another start to another circular argument....


edit: first off - a christian would never agree that he ignores all prayers.... then... /edit
They will likely say something to the effect that 'its gods will, and to question him is blasphemous' - it would seem he picks and chooses who he would grant wishes for.
A football stars wish is granted to win a game, but a kid with cancer is ignored... ??
I choose to decline that line of thinking myself.

I've always had a problem with that line of thinking, if God picks and chooses who and what he will grant then that makers god an imperfect being. For if God loves everyone he must grant everyones desires, So I would say if a "god does" exist, he grants nothing and lets people learn on their own.

I also agree with Omega Red's 3 things that annoy the piss out of me about religion, it's totally true, and Their last argument is always faith, well Faith gets people killed, everyday. you don't even have t go to Iraq and see those fanatics. You remember that cult that killed themselves over that comet that they thought would ascend them? So they all killed themselves... Back in like 2000, in California.

[Falstaff]

ye of little faith.

[TDurden1937]

At this link Theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia you may find the definition of “Theory.


”In science a theory is a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise verified through empirical observation. For the scientist, "theory" is not in any way an antonym of "fact".


I find the misuse of the concept of theory astonishing in this debate. It illustrates the depth in which most of this “debate” is conducted.


Certainly no one in their right mind would follow this thread and expect to find anything that might clarify the issues surrounding “science” vs. “religion.”


To have a productive debate the participants have to have at least a moderately complete understanding of the material they are debating.


Statement such as “Science has proven the Theory of Evolution beyond a doubt,” or “Since the Bible is the inspired word of God and so has to be true,” shows that anyone seeking to increase his/her understanding of the issues should look elsewhere immediately.


For those of you deeply involved in this debate I suggest you stop now and continue studying so that you become accurately acquainted with the subject matter you are addressing. As of now you are only doing harm to the assertions you are trying to support.


Debate is at it's best when those who debate are open to at least considering the opposite view. Clearly, the rule here is a struggle over who is right or wrong. Not what is the most reasonable and best supported proposition.


I must point out that Jesus makes it clear in his ministry, that there are those, many, many of those who do not, and will not acknowledge the truth, or even attempt to consider what is the truth because they love ignorance or darkness. Because in darkness, they can hide there evil and selfish ways.


BTW – Christianity is not based on faith, or the blind belief in myth. A careful examination of the New Testament will show many, many testable criteria which support that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, died to absolve you of your sins, and on the third day after his death arose and showed himself to thousands of witnesses.


Of course, those of you with closed ears will not hear as Christ anticipated many time in his ministry. While those who can and do hear will believe.


For those of you who feel vilified, shamed, or dirty because Christ said that you are a sinner because you are a homosexual, have casual sex, are drunks (drinking by the way is not a sin, but drunkenness is) be assured that your sins are no more severe than my sins of pridefulness, envy, or love of money.


All flames are sent to /dev/null . . . and due to the lameness of this thread I will not bother to visit here again. I also suggest any other serious seeker, be he/she scientific or religious oriented go elsewhere.

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by TDurden1937

I must point out that Jesus makes it clear in his ministry, that there are those, many, many of those who do not, and will not acknowledge the truth, or even attempt to consider what is the truth because they love ignorance or darkness. Because in darkness, they can hide there evil and selfish ways.

We've gone over this before. There isn't even proof that Jesus existed and let us say he did, there's no proof he was the son of God which means he's just a "dude" with an opinion - like you or I.

All you've come armed with to this thread is circular reasoning. There isn't anything you've got to say which doesn't come back to The Bible. I suggest you come back when you've got something substantial.

BTW – Christianity is not based on faith, or the blind belief in myth. A careful examination of the New Testament will show many, many testable criteria which support that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, died to absolve you of your sins, and on the third day after his death arose and showed himself to thousands of witnesses.


Of course, those of you with closed ears will not hear as Christ anticipated many time in his ministry. While those who can and do hear will believe.

Oh here we go...

All flames are sent to /dev/null . . . and due to the lameness of this thread I will not bother to visit here again. I also suggest any other serious seeker, be he/she scientific or religious oriented go elsewhere.

It's not like you actually contributed anything to this thread. Your post was the equivalent of Jehova witnesses at my door

[chillbilly]

Regardless of which view is taken, man's reason can only take him so far.
There are untapped realities that are within our domain and man's will must be utilized to see them.
The problem for most men is that they are trapped by routine and dogma.

[SeraphicSorcerer]

All I've got to say, is, let's say I'm flat our wrong. That god exists in every fuggin way the bible says. That Jesus is his son. Blah Blah. And I get to the golden gates of heaven. Where I am to be judged. If Peter says, hey dickhead, why didn't you acknowledge your one true lord, and I say "Because I had no evidence, no miracles happened in front of me to actually lead me to believe it was god, for that I am sorry, obviously I was wrong." and then he's like, you go to hell. I'd be like F U, The devil sounds like a cooler guy to hang out with anyhow. And here's why I say this.

If at my core I am a good person, with well lined intentions, and not evil perverse mannerisms, and I lead a "good life" helped homeless, taught others, tried to be polite, didn't focus my whole life on money, etc etc. (Although cussing out nubs on CS/WOW/Insert any other game here is probably a sin :P) Then he cast me to hell simply because I didn't believe, but had a good soul, that only shows god has a f'n shallow mentality, is imperfect and frankly can kiss my ass. I don't need god to make me feel better when I'm lonely, because quite frankly If all of these bible loving idiots did actually treat their neighbors with love and shit. The world wouldn't be half as f'ed up as it is.

I must add you can't debate religion, because the fact is, Unless someone returns in front of everyone IN MODERN DAY, then theres no proo there's an afterlife exactly as foretold in the bible. Everyone says everything around us is a miracle, bullshit have you seen africa lately? Where's the food for everyone healing of the sick, capping of the genociders? Yeah god loves humanity alright, he doesn't step in when he/she/it should, and that just shows you right there, that If he created us, he should be wanting to help us.

[chillbilly]

Originally Posted by Snow Eater

Gravity is a force, forces explain movement.
You are drawing an analogy between evolution "always working" and gravity "always working".

I'm pointing out that even though gravity is "always working" there are some things that can be described by gravity, but other things that gravity is not enough to explain.

If we then move back to the evolution question, you should be able to see the point that even though evolution may be able to explain some things, the fact that evolution happens is no reason to assume without questioning that it must therefore explain everything.

Good point snoweater.
The framework behind the Evolutionists interpretation is Naturalism..that is assuming that things made themselves and that no divine intervention occured.
Evolution is a deduction from this assumption.

So, it's not a question of "biased religious creationists" versus "objective scientific evolutionists".
Rather, it is the biases of religion versus the biases of secular humanism resulting in different interpretations of the same data.

[Neshi]

Originally Posted by Mousey

BUUUUT This is turning from a religion debate to a physics debate so back on track? Let's discuss the bible for instance.

The bible is like a human being; if you torture it long enough, you get it to say almost anything.

That's what I think about it. There is so much that can't be explained, there are so many contradictions in the bible, and the religious encouters I have had just strenghtened me in my belief that there isn't a god, or anyway, not the god that christians proclaim to be.
It wouldn't surprise me that after death and all, the egyptians were the ones with the right gods, or the greeks..