[x.clay]

Interesting thread...here are a few thoughts to toss out there...

I can understand anyone who takes a look at the world and wonders how could there be a god. There is constand pain, suffering, injustice, and oppression. If there is a god, and he is a loving god like everyone clains, why doesn't he just fix this mess!

The problem is that to fix the world you have to fix people and people are pretty messed up. I used to consider myself a pretty decent person. I obeyed my parents. Participated in charities and helped those less fortunate. When I died I expected to my good stuff to outweigh any bad stuff I did and into heaven I would go....

The problem is I'm really not that great of a person. I'm selfish, pridefull, a liar....and this list could go on and on. The truth is even when I think I am doing pretty well I am so far from the standard God sets that I don't even come close. If we had to depend on being good people to get into heaven none of us would have a chance. I have made so many choices that totally go against what God would want for me and as a result I deserve to be seperated from God...I deserve hell.

God is a just God and the penaties for sin can't just be brushed under the rug like they never happened. But God is also a relational God that loves each of us more than we could begin to understand. Someone had to pay the price for us, and hell is to large a price for any of us to have to pay, so he paid the price for us. The God of eternity stepped down to walk among us, to teach us and show us what God was like, and to ultimately carry our punishment. All God asks is that you will acknowledge who Jesus is and accept his payment for a debt you could never pay on your own.

There are a lot of arguments in this thread over things like creation vs. evolution, free will, science vs. faith, but I think they are all side issues that people get really sidetracted on. The underlining theme throughout the entire Bible is not a laundry list of do's and dont's. God gives the creation account about 2 pages that I would consider pretty vague so I wouldn't consider this an issue that God thinks is too important beyond the basics that He created everything. The common theme throughout the entire Bible is God's love and interaction with his people. Most of the Bible is written about people and their lives. Who they were, their struggles and failings as well as their accomplishments. The big figures in the bible were far from perfect people and the bible doesn't try to gloss over this. Abraham didn't believe God's promise and decided to take matters into his own hands. Moses murdered someone. David slept with another man's wife and then killed the guy so he wouldn't find out. Peter denied Jesus multiple times. And Paul (who wrote most of the new testimate) was a leader in the persection and even killing of many early Christians. God isn't looking for perfect people. He know we are all messed up. He is just looking for people who are willing to be honest and admit their imperfection. We can't fix ourselves. Even the most moral person still has struggles, even if they won't let you see them. Only God can fix us, and rather than turn each of us into mindless drones that have no choice but to obey, he gives us the choice.

[Judas]

God created Adam, and then god gave adam a notepad and pen and then said "adam, take a note" thus creating the word of god aka the bible.

Someone find this counter productive?

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by x.clay

God isn't looking for perfect people. He know we are all messed up. He is just looking for people who are willing to be honest and admit their imperfection. We can't fix ourselves. Even the most moral person still has struggles, even if they won't let you see them. Only God can fix us, and rather than turn each of us into mindless drones that have no choice but to obey, he gives us the choice.

I've made the choice to decide God isn't real and I'll fix my problems myself. If I supposedly have free will then this should be fine and dandy, if not then I guess I'll be going to Hell

[x.clay]

If there is no God then there is no reason to try to be a better person, live a good life, etc. (unless it just makes you feel better). Life is short so party hard and enjoy it as much as you can. Anyone that professes a faith should be considered a fool for wasting there short existance trying to live for something that isn't real.

But if there is a God and hell is a real place, it certainly shouldn't be destination you feel comfortable with. I have heard the arguement "I would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven..." Hell isn't a place where you can kick back with satan and roast some marshmellows over the open flames. I think most people have a pretty bland view of heaven and hell. The bible's view of hell is a place of constant tormant. What comes to my mind is the feeling of drowning....the desperation for a gasp of air, the trapt feeling, the feeling of the world closing in around you but there is nothing you can do about it. Hell isn't a big party for those that didn't make the cut for heaven. People will be too focused on their own situation to be concerned about everyone else. And heaven isn't a place with little naked babies flying around with harps and fluffy clouds. The few people in the bible who were given a glimpse of heaven struggle to find a wordly comparison. Heaven is a place where things like pain, disapointment, injustice, disease, and death are finally done away with. We'll be surrounded by the most amazing scenery imaginable. Take the most breathtaking landscape or sunset you have even seen and conbine with the the best relationships you have had and remove any pain or disapointment. And then stretch that feeling on forever and you might be starting to get a tiny glimpse of heaven.

[dawgXdenta]

Originally Posted by Mousey

i am giving my Opinion which involves taking a Dump on religion.

He he , I don't think you are taking a dump on anything. These are your honest opinions. As a religious person(however not of the orthodox institutions). Its quite fair to say that religion has caused more strife than any other cause well probably close to or equal to political power and wealth plays.

Whats needed is a revolutionary "thought system" based on improving everyone's livelihood , expanding knowledge. And Yes improving morals. Many So called Utopian theorists miss that out completely.

Religion was supposed to be the foundation for such a society but because of mans lust for power this wasn't possible. I mean even if you are an atheist you have to agree that some religious teachings like forgiveness and love are core to a society we would all like to live in.

The 10 commandments are a basis for a society that doesn't exist. Think about it; thou shall not kill , thou shall not steal. Imagine living in a society that upholds those values. Whether you believe that religion in fact or myth that one thing cannot be denied.

FO SHIZEEE

[dawgXdenta]

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

I've made the choice to decide God isn't real and I'll fix my problems myself. If I supposedly have free will then this should be fine and dandy, if not then I guess I'll be going to Hell

He he funny guy, nice logic. I tried that didn't work fer me.
Funny how u can see a glimmer of ur life in absolute strangers.

There is a quote I hope you remember in your life , a reality I have lived through painfully "Either they(we) shall come crawling, or willingly through the door heads held high."

Dont know where i got it

[dawgXdenta]

Here is a humdinger for religious folk and non religious folk. "One must choose to walk the path NONE can choose to walk it for you"
Bloody hell whats up with some of you people choose for yourselves find the truth. Allow no one to brainwash you.
You cant be recruited into anything its YOU who recruits urself into YOUR view of life. Religious or otherwise.
Dammit if ure in America millions have died so u can proudly say ur atheist or Mormon or whatever and many more will die for those freedoms.
So please no one take those freedoms for granted and respect each others views.

END OF RANT

[dawgXdenta]

I must admit. If this was a debate in a 3rd world country ya'll would be very quiet.

Mmm wanted to put a smiley but inapropr8 i guess.

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by dawgXdenta

I must admit. If this was a debate in a 3rd world country ya'll would be very quiet.

Mmm wanted to put a smiley but inapropr8 i guess.

Nah, with all those Christian charities coming in and feeding, clothing and educating the 3rd world people they'd be pulling out their Bibles in the debates

[Neshi]

Originally Posted by dawgXdenta

Whats needed is a revolutionary "thought system" based on improving everyone's livelihood , expanding knowledge. And Yes improving morals. Many So called Utopian theorists miss that out completely.

Religion was supposed to be the foundation for such a society but because of mans lust for power this wasn't possible. I mean even if you are an atheist you have to agree that some religious teachings like forgiveness and love are core to a society we would all like to live in.

The 10 commandments are a basis for a society that doesn't exist. Think about it; thou shall not kill , thou shall not steal. Imagine living in a society that upholds those values. Whether you believe that religion in fact or myth that one thing cannot be denied.

I don't think that is something of a religion. I think those '10 commandments' are already lived by if you use your common sense and you're feeling for right and wrong, something everybody has.

I don't need a religion to tell me; this is right and this is wrong. I know that all by myself, because I know it when something I do is right or wrong.

[Neshi]

Originally Posted by x.clay

If there is no God then there is no reason to try to be a better person, live a good life, etc. (unless it just makes you feel better). Life is short so party hard and enjoy it as much as you can. Anyone that professes a faith should be considered a fool for wasting there short existance trying to live for something that isn't real.

But if there is a God and hell is a real place, it certainly shouldn't be destination you feel comfortable with. I have heard the arguement "I would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven..." Hell isn't a place where you can kick back with satan and roast some marshmellows over the open flames. I think most people have a pretty bland view of heaven and hell. The bible's view of hell is a place of constant tormant. What comes to my mind is the feeling of drowning....the desperation for a gasp of air, the trapt feeling, the feeling of the world closing in around you but there is nothing you can do about it. Hell isn't a big party for those that didn't make the cut for heaven. People will be too focused on their own situation to be concerned about everyone else. And heaven isn't a place with little naked babies flying around with harps and fluffy clouds. The few people in the bible who were given a glimpse of heaven struggle to find a wordly comparison. Heaven is a place where things like pain, disapointment, injustice, disease, and death are finally done away with. We'll be surrounded by the most amazing scenery imaginable. Take the most breathtaking landscape or sunset you have even seen and conbine with the the best relationships you have had and remove any pain or disapointment. And then stretch that feeling on forever and you might be starting to get a tiny glimpse of heaven.

I don't agree. First of all, you don't know what heaven or hell is like. Saying someones view on hell or heaven is wrong is just stupid, as is saying you know what it will be like.
That aside, if there is no god there is no use in living the right way?
What about your own feelings? I feel very sad for you if the way you live is just for your God.

[dawgXdenta]

Originally Posted by Neshi

I don't think that is something of a religion. I think those '10 commandments' are already lived by if you use your common sense and you're feeling for right and wrong, something everybody has.

I don't need a religion to tell me; this is right and this is wrong. I know that all by myself, because I know it when something I do is right or wrong.

I agree with you. Such good is innate .But it also begs the question how has religion influenced our culture, our sense of wrong and right. These morals and views and opinions. How much of them are christian(I'm not a christian Mind you)
After about a thousand years of christian values how have they permeated society.

Think about it, friendship forgiveness sacrifice...
Mmmh I don't know the answer myself.
But i'm quiet sure that modern society is quite influenced by them in an indirect way.

Like radio waves, he he.

[vancouver]

Originally Posted by Neshi

I don't think that is something of a religion. I think those '10 commandments' are already lived by if you use your common sense and you're feeling for right and wrong, something everybody has.

I don't need a religion to tell me; this is right and this is wrong. I know that all by myself, because I know it when something I do is right or wrong.

I agree with you. Every person has their innate sense of right and wrong. But I think something as big as an innate sense of love and justice can't possibly just come from nowhere, right? I think we must have gotten it from somewhere (or someone, who essentially is God), and that's the source of our humanity.

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by vancouver

I agree with you. Every person has their innate sense of right and wrong. But I think something as big as an innate sense of love and justice can't possibly just come from nowhere, right? I think we must have gotten it from somewhere (or someone, who essentially is God), and that's the source of our humanity.

We did get it from somewhere...our ancestors. Humans lived in tribes and had to develop certain skills in order to survive as a group. If you raped, murdered, and stole whatever you wanted you wouldn't last long as a member of the group and survival alone would be impossible. Our ancestors would have developed their own sense of right and wrong which is a pretty basic concept (pleasure=good, pain=bad).

All this is more plausible than "Invisible Dude in the sky did it".

[dawgXdenta]

There is this idea, that I had after I read a book on mathematics(in college). It goes like this; there exists an ant. this ant is a dot, moving along a plane, the plane is so wide and flat that the ant only sees the plane wherever it turns.

This ant however cannot go up and down therefor it is without the perception of height. Regardless of how much the ant may walk it will never move an inch higher.
Because if it could and move high enough it would realize that the plane isn't a plane at all, but a massive sphere. So massive that its curvature appears never to end.

If we are to consider our lives as this ant that can never go higher but has the freedom to mover anywhere on the sphere. Then God would be the being that is not limited by left right straight or back, but can go wherever he pleases.

My point is all existence is limited by dimensional perception, matter is limited by rules of molecular chemistry and physics[dimension 1], plants are limited by (lack of sensory perception[dimension 2], animals[dimension 3] are limited by a(lack of intellectual and emotional complexity), humans [dimension 4]are limited by their intellectual and emotional complexity."

Which makes sense if you consider Humans are unable to learn and improve when they think they know too much, or when they become comfortable with a way of life or a set of ideals that have become outdated. As is the case today.

So it makes sense to me to percieve beings that have surpassed this limitation, that have broken through the barriers of self and contention, that are beyond the touch of space and time.
Beings that have not allowed their emotions and intellect to bar them from discovering the wonders of the universe.

And beyond them a being like a star that has surpassed even them that have surpassed us.

I dont think we are ants however, I think we can allow ourselves to become ants seeing only left right back and forward, or we can move anywhere we choose if we could allow ourselves to be free, thats how I know God exists.

[Cow_160483]

totally deep dawgX

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by Cow_160483

totally deep dawgX

I'll say...what do I gotta smoke to make sense of it all

[dawgXdenta]

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

I'll say...what do I gotta smoke to make sense of it all

Hey! I went through a lot of trouble to write that, u better read it!

[dawgXdenta]

A few brain cells died!!

[docvino]

Why cant religion be left in the eyes or the person or at home. Why does it have to be turned into huge discussion all over the world. All over TV everything is based upon religion.

[dawgXdenta]

Because we have to discuss ervything that affects us,docvino, especially if they seem mundane. Its cos of religion why people are dying in the middle east.

Its relevant dude.

[adit2789]

Religion is a matter of opinion or rather interpretation. Most religions teach basically the same thing. Be a good person, live a good life and you will be rewarded. It is because of the several interpretations of what the good life is that all these different religions got created so therefore it is not the religion itself that is wrong but rather the human being that is. Interpretation and opinion i believe are the shackles of the human race, in that as long as we have those two things the religions of the world will never coexist peacefully

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by adit2789

Religion is a matter of opinion or rather interpretation. Most religions teach basically the same thing. Be a good person, live a good life and you will be rewarded. It is because of the several interpretations of what the good life is that all these different religions got created so therefore it is not the religion itself that is wrong but rather the human being that is. Interpretation and opinion i believe are the shackles of the human race, in that as long as we have those two things the religions of the world will never coexist peacefully

One thing most religions have in common is obedience. If you are obedient and follow all the tenants of a religion you will be rewarded in the afterlife, being good is irrelevant, since the only thing that can be good is being devout. Humans created religion and like many things we've created it is a rubbish idea.

[adit2789]

I guess in the end society's hate for non-conformity should be blamed

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by adit2789

I guess in the end society's hate for non-conformity should be blamed

I don't think that's it at all. When it comes specifically to the case of religion I would blame man's lust for power and domination over others, our willingness to be deceived for comfort, and the need to believe in something bigger than ourselves. That, and some people are just fuckin' crazy.

[Kazeko]

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

I don't think that's it at all. When it comes specifically to the case of religion I would blame man's lust for power and domination over others, our willingness to be deceived for comfort, and the need to believe in something bigger than ourselves. That, and some people are just fuckin' crazy.

Couple things...

First off, (and I admit, I didn't read the whole thread) the problem I have with the idea of human desire for power over others, is it presumes that your neighbor would just as soon enslave you or shoot you in the face than live with you in peace. For most people, this isn't the case. Most people would rather not kill you or enslave you, because, on a fundamental level, most people understand that your mind, the human mind, is sovereign... and most respect this. If they didn't Jeffrey Domer would be a free man right now.

Second off, No one can hold any power over you except physical power, and even then, only if you consent by valuing your life over the alternative. The only power anyone has over you, is imposed by physical force imposed on you by those who would enslave, or destroy you. Your mind, your "soul" if you will, cannot be enslaved by anyone, by it's very nature. It is, fundamentally impossible.

Third...

Our "willingness to be deceived by comfort" isn't a willingness. It's psychological. Freud called it the "Deprivation theory" stating that where a humans mind could not find a provable answer, they substituted religion to provide stability and security to their lack of knowledge. For example, people followed a religious doctrine to show them that the world was flat, heaven was up, hell was down, and earth was in between. Galileo gave an alternate answer, and was persecuted for it.

So.. with that... religion substitutes fear. Where we don't know, we are afraid, and as such, fill in religion because we don't know.

I believe in God, because I don't know what will happen in the afterlife, and two... because this world and it's fundamental basis, makes WAAAY too much sense, to not have a significant subtext.

Do I know what religion is right or wrong? No. And the question is superfluous.

[OmegaRED]

Those are good points though for the power over others I was thinking more about the religious leaders who control their subjects.

[adit2789]

I guess that could be said, but i am not sure how much comfort is coming out of extremist islam

[dawgXdenta]

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

I don't think that's it at all. When it comes specifically to the case of religion I would blame man's lust for power and domination over others, our willingness to be deceived for comfort, and the need to believe in something bigger than ourselves. That, and some people are just fuckin' crazy.

THUMBS UP

to me it doesnt matter what someone believes its what they do that counts,
All hunkey dorey if you believe god is a pink dinosaur that flies circles above your head, but if you actually help people progress and develop thats far more useful than what they believe

[Neshi]

Originally Posted by adit2789

I guess that could be said, but i am not sure how much comfort is coming out of extremist islam

I don't think OmegaRED is so much pointing his finger in that direction, but points it to religion in it's whole. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism etc.

Marx said it in his time, and it is still very much the case.
"Religion is the opium for the people", and what I think he meant by that is as long as you keep feeding people crap about god, heaven and hell.. live a good (obedient) life and you will be rewarded..
The people will accept that they are being screwed, because they'll have the church to cry and pray for better times. They won't revolt because the spiritual leaders tell them that is wrong and they must accept their place in life and society.. Religion is just a way to keep the people content.

Originally Posted by dawgXdenta

to me it doesnt matter what someone believes its what they do that counts,
All hunkey dorey if you believe god is a pink dinosaur that flies circles above your head, but if you actually help people progress and develop thats far more useful than what they believe

I agree.. but I find it funny when for example I say I am a devout follower of the ancient egyptian gods, and my main god is Seth, people look at me funny and tell me they don't exist and I'm crazy..
But believing in 1 god that created everything, and still is reaching out his hands to influence peoples lives (hello, free will?!?!) is the way to go?
I wonder how long it will take for Christianity to disappear and a new religion take it's place..or the Islam or whatever other religion for that matter..