[Vikingod]

This is the appropriate thread to debate all things religion.

Feel free to voice your opinions and post your facts. Only requirement is that it stays civil and there are no personal insults. There is no particular topic here, so long as it's about religion, its appropriate.

That said, it should be noted that if you are posting here, expect someone to feel the total opposite of you. So please refrain from reporting posts because someone doesn't subscribe to your beliefs. The thread will be monitored to ensure things stay cool.

Enjoy!

[OmegaRED]

Doesn't a forum section entitled "Political and Religious Debate" negate the need for a thread devoted to just that? Wouldn't this be the same as starting a "Flaming thread" in the Flaming Warzone?

While there's lots of religious stuff I'd like to debate, I personally prefer to start a topic for each one in order to keep it on topic for as long as possible.

[Vikingod]

This is an attempt to keep other threads from turning into off-topic slap fights. It should be used when someone just needs to vent about their religious views, or just wants a good fair argument about god/science, and keep the other threads on the topics they were initially started for.

[Mousey]

You want my honest opinion?
I doubt many of the people that read this opinion are going to like it but i'm afraid it's tough, and remember this is a Debate thread, not a Flame thread. As a result, i am giving my Opinion which involves taking a Dump on religion.

Basically, methinks that religion's negatives far outweigh the positives and it causes far more trouble than should be allowed. Religion is basically a fancy word for "Do as i say, not as i do". Apparently they are all about encompassing others and learning how to accept, So how come 9/10 religions don't accept homosexuality/lesbianism and other controversial topics like those i won't go into.
There's also extremism, it's used as the most basic and overly-whored cover you can possibly think of here. How many (Main-stream) religions can you think of that blatantly teach you to go out and Kill people because they believe differently to you? If i have a problem with someone, i'll call em a dick if they start and walk off, i won't start screaming that my religion told me to do it and go kill the guy and everybody that thinks remotely like him...

And if this post is getting too heavy, then moderators do what you will, but otherwise this is my opinion and if you don't like it why are you still here?

[Judas]

religion can burn in hell...



sorry.... no puns or anything ironic intended.....

[OmegaRED]

I've got a long list of gripes with religion but I suppose these are the first 3 that come to mind.

1) Nearly all religions claim to be the sole source of truth:

"We know how life began" and "We worship the one true God". So many religions claiming the same thing and often recycling the details (messiahs,apocalypses,afterlife). What about all those religions and Gods which have long died off? They had no more evidence of their truth than present religions yet people believe it.

2) Ignorance and subversion of scientific knowledge & discovery, critical thinking and human rights while championing unquestioning devotion, faith and subservience:

Whether it's Galileo or Darwin, any revolutionary ideas which displace man as the center of the universe will be met with hostility. Religion wants us to be unquestioning followers; it's telling that none of the three big monotheist religions have any mention of intelligence as a quality to be sought out...it's always faith.

It is utterly ridiculous that God, the Supreme Being and creator of the Universe would create men and demand them to worship him ceaselessly, groveling at his feet daily and begging for forgiveness of their sins (even though he created your sins as well as a Hell for you to suffer for them). If God is all knowing, all seeing and all loving he knows the moment you are born whether you are going to Heaven or Hell...what kind of sick being would create people knowing they would be destined for such eternal damnation?

3) Religion is shielded from criticism and protected from rational inquiry.

Regardless of the country or time period the commonality is that religion is protected from the sorts of inspection that other institutions are subjected to. This is achieved by many different means including fear of a God who demands obedience and punishment of death for outspoken criticism. In more recent times it is the cry of "intolerance" or "racism" from religious leaders whenever their faith is held up to scrutiny. This protection has over time allowed some religions to become corrupt and filthy rich.

I would like to see a day when religious belief is treated like any other belief and is not entitled to make any unverified claims. It boggles my mind that the average religious person will spend a great deal of effort researching and verifying claims made about a car before buying it yet will accept the first religion that comes along despite none of the claims holding up to any inquiry.

Anyway, that's 3 out of...100 things

[Judas]

go watch "zeitgiest"

[OmegaRED]

No thanks, I'm a little sick of conspiracy movies.

[Maddogg6]

Originally Posted by Judas

go watch "zeitgiest"

Found here...
ZEITGEIST, The Movie - Official Release - Full Film

And Mousey and Omega pretty much summed up my view....
Religion teaches us to accept things that are not proven as fact - and makes things like discrimination and murder more easily justifiable. On top of the obvious manipulative qualities religion posseses.

[Sandok]

Religion can exist if it gives a person meaning to their life... I personally don't need religion but if someone does to make themselves a better person, so be it.

However, I must say that in a few countries (thinking of a big superpower here), religion is taken to litteraly and is PART of the goverment which is just wrong.

[Maddogg6]

However, I must say that in a few countries (thinking of a big superpower here), religion is taken to litteraly and is PART of the goverment which is just wrong.

Agreed....
______________________________________

Another strong argument against religious ideas of god for me is...

Who made god? Where did god come from?

Christians will say something like 'god is all time and all time is god' - meaning, because he was 'always' there - there is no birth of god (or beginning) - and because theres no birth - there was no origin.
Yet... the biggest piece of 'evidence' of the existence of god is that 'the universe is so complex and so perfect in the way it operates - there must be an architect'
ok - apply that to where god comes from - hes so perfect he must have had an architect - who?.

Its a huge contradiction to me.

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by Sandok

Religion can exist if it gives a person meaning to their life... I personally don't need religion but if someone does to make themselves a better person, so be it.

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

Who made god? Where did god come from?

Christians will say something like 'god is all time and all time is god' - meaning, because he was 'always' there - there is no birth of god (or beginning) - and because theres no birth - there was no origin.
Yet... the biggest piece of 'evidence' of the existence of god is that 'the universe is so complex and so perfect in the way it operates - there must be an architect'
ok - apply that to where god comes from - hes so perfect he must have had an architect - who?.

Its a huge contradiction to me.

This is why organized religion are not a positive influence on the world. They pretend to search for God and meaning yet all the big religions have stories which lay out the entirety of creation and what God wants from us (to worship him).

I disagree with any religious person who says their faith gives them meaning when their sole duty is to bow down to their supernatural lord and master not just in life but for an eternity in afterlife. What kind of meaningful life is that? I know this isn't the case with all religions, but for the big three that's the way it is.

Maddog, that's a good question that most religious people have never asked themselves. They should also ask why the Supreme Being who could have anything he could possibly want is such a jealous God that it's a sin to worship other Gods. Why would he even create men only to demand they worship him and pray to him (even though he ignores all prayers)?

[Maddogg6]

Why would he even create men only to demand they worship him and pray to him ....?

A christian will likely say something like 'because god gave us free will' - as if he chose to give him self some kind of challenge. It makes no sense to me either - but thats the argument I have heard before. too me - its another start to another circular argument....

(even though he ignores all prayers)

edit: first off - a christian would never agree that he ignores all prayers.... then... /edit
They will likely say something to the effect that 'its gods will, and to question him is blasphemous' - it would seem he picks and chooses who he would grant wishes for.
A football stars wish is granted to win a game, but a kid with cancer is ignored... ??
I choose to decline that line of thinking myself.

[Sandok]

I think you guys know its impossible to change somebodies opinion... Right? I mean, I do now (after a billion debates).

People believe in stupid things, but that doesn't mean you can force them to see your beliefs... Honestly, I've noticed people who understand science deny God and people who "think" they know science well... Love God

[LordLink]

IMO it's not good to "debate" religions as it's a personal choice ansd I don't remember who was saying "it's not good to speak about religion (if not asked) as you never know who you'll be offending" but I agree with that. Thats on the one hand, on the other hand what is irritating is that usually when people are speaking about religions other than theirs they don't really know the religion they are talking about and the fact is that they got biased judgements.

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by Sandok

I think you guys know its impossible to change somebodies opinion... Right? I mean, I do now (after a billion debates).

In general, I agree with that assertion because most topics just aren't personal enough to sway our opinion. However, that's not true in the case of religious belief, it won't happen immediately of course but it's an accumulative effect upon the persons belief system. Those unanswered questions will keep piling up and eventually the believer has to decide whether to search for the truth or ignore them and just have faith. Those of us here who are agnostic or atheists can attest to this because we used to believe.

People believe in stupid things, but that doesn't mean you can force them to see your beliefs... Honestly, I've noticed people who understand science deny God and people who "think" they know science well... Love God

It's amazing how people can compartmentalize their beliefs isn't it?

Originally Posted by LordLink

IMO it's not good to "debate" religions as it's a personal choice ansd I don't remember who was saying "it's not good to speak about religion (if not asked) as you never know who you'll be offending" but I agree with that.

Why should religion have any special treatment? People argue their political beliefs all the time I don't see how religion is any different. We can't worry about offending everyone else's religious beliefs especially when so many of them encroach on our own rights and freedoms.

[Maddogg6]

I think you guys know its impossible to change somebodies opinion...

well - if you say it enough times...

the war in Iraq is justified
the war in Iraq is justified
the war in Iraq is justified
the war in Iraq is justified
the war in Iraq is justified
the war in Iraq is justified
the war in Iraq is justified
the war in Iraq is justified
____________________________

Doesn't this sound a lot like an attack on free speech, or at least suggests to suppress it?

"it's not good to speak about religion (if not asked) as you never know who you'll be offending"

I mean - you are free to express that you have been offended just by someone being critical - but thats how free speech works, some one may something you don't like - you are also free to disagree - but... to take one away, both *will* disappear, be it about religion or politics.

that usually when people are speaking about religions other than theirs they don't really know the religion they are talking about and the fact is that they got biased judgements

do you see a flaw in that statement? - you used a generalization ('usually')- then followed up with the word 'fact' - obviously - thats not always true - right? it is a contradiction - no?

bottom line is - we *are* allowed to discuss it - we *are* free to do so ... for now - and I hope that line of thinking doesn't lead to an end of such freedom any time soon. Do you? as you are either free - or not - there's really no compromise. Otherwise its 'freedom with exception' and who decides those exceptions - me or you?

edit: and if something is said in error - you are free to point it out and make/suggest corrections....please do /edit

[LordLink]

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

Why should religion have any special treatment? People argue their political beliefs all the time I don't see how religion is any different. We can't worry about offending everyone else's religious beliefs especially when so many of them encroach on our own rights and freedoms.

If you debate in the same religion then it's ok but debating Christianism vs Islam vs Judaism vs [put the name of other religions] is not useful because you can't change anything
I agree that some people are using religion to achieve some political interests (did I say Ben Laden?) that's why there's ambiguity between the two but for me the difference is that politics is something for the actual life but religion is something for the after life and thus it's useless to participate interreligious debates

[cozumel]

Christian, Jewish, Islamic and any other faith schools should be outlawed as all they do is reduce understanding of each others beliefs. Children need a secular education and should choose if they want to follow a religion. It should never be forced upon on them and just increases mistrust.

Maddogg: If you want to debate the Iraq war then start another thread as you have not linked your comment to anything religious. For the record, it is definitely not justified and was illegal anyhow.

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by LordLink

If you debate in the same religion then it's ok but debating Christianism vs Islam vs Judaism vs [put the name of other religions] is not useful because you can't change anything
I agree that some people are using religion to achieve some political interests (did I say Ben Laden?) that's why there's ambiguity between the two but for me the difference is that politics is something for the actual life but religion is something for the after life and thus it's useless to participate interreligious debates

Who's this Ben Laden guy you speak of? Is there a reward for him?

Actually, Christianity, Islam and Judaism are all related to Abraham and thus it is a perfect fit for discussion. I agree that it's useless to debate the merits of one religion over another but that's not the same as discussing them.

Religion can and must be discussed, it was not always safe to do so and in some places still isn't. We have the freedom and should use it to educate people both on the value of and the cost of religious belief to mankind. There may not be an afterlife so now's the best time for it.

[Maddogg6]

Maddogg: If you want to debate the Iraq war then start another thread as you have not linked your comment to anything religious.

Actually yes - it did have religious link.... it was an example that if you say something enough...people will believe it...

'By god....'
'Jesus christ......'
'God this, god that'
its all over our media. Just like how the war in Iraq was justified.
Do you see the link now?

I agree that some people are using religion to achieve some political interests (did I say Ben Laden?)

than say it for Huckabee too as well.
Mike Huckabee's Ongoing Ministry - Swampland - TIME

Huckabee's campaign has attempted to portray these religious services as non-political events. Indeed, the candidate said nothing explicitly political during his sermon, though the church's pastor, Mike Hamlet, did encourage parishioners afterwards to vote in the Saturday primary.

edit: ' Jesus Camp' is a place that kids are 'mobilized to politcally take back america' /edit

[LordLink]

Originally Posted by cozumel

Christian, Jewish, Islamic and any other faith schools should be outlawed as all they do is reduce understanding of each others beliefs. Children need a secular education and should choose if they want to follow a religion. It should never be forced upon on them and just increases mistrust.

Then when you're going to choose one you'll be an outlaw ?!! and how can you put all these religions in the reduce-understanding-of-each-others-beliefs category? it's looks like you have a GREAT knowledge in all these religions (that's exactly what I call bias)

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

Who's this Ben Laden guy you speak of? Is there a reward for him?

Actually, Christianity, Islam and Judaism are all related to Abraham and thus it is a perfect fit for discussion. I agree that it's useless to debate the merits of one religion over another but that's not the same as discussing them.

Religion can and must be discussed, it was not always safe to do so and in some places still isn't. We have the freedom and should use it to educate people both on the value of and the cost of religious belief to mankind. There may not be an afterlife so now's the best time for it.

There's a difference between discussion and debate (at least in my understanding of english). Yes, discussing is the begining of understanding but there should be always rules/guidelines in these kind of discussions not to fall into flaming
And yes Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all versions of the same religion (that's why they're called the 3 heavenly religions)
One funny perspective to make it suitable for a discussion in driverheaven is that :
Judaism = win 98
Christianity = win xp
Islam = vista

I think the choice here is between win xp & vista because win 98 is no longer an option

[Maddogg6]

Yes, discussing is the begining of understanding but there should be always rules/guidelines in these kind of discussions not to fall into flaming

Good point, but then you say....

One funny perspective to make it suitable for a discussion in driverheaven is that :
Judaism = win 98
Christianity = win xp
Islam = vista

I think the choice here is between win xp & vista because win 98 is no longer an option

that comes across like you feel one is 'better' or more correct/up to date. How does that avoid a flame war?? Perhaps I mis-interpreted this rather ambiguous 'analogy'. If so please elaborate more directly.

[OmegaRED]

that comes across like you feel one is 'better' or more correct/up to date. How does that avoid a flame war?? Perhaps I mis-interpreted this rather ambiguous 'analogy'. If so please elaborate more directly.

He was going by the order they were created. You gotta give him effort points for throwing in a Windows reference in a religion discussion.

[Callandor]

One thing I've noticed about religion is that when you're an atheist, people are continuosly always trying to "brain wash" you into their religion, just yesterday some guy was trying to get me to become a muslim, and the other day one of my good friends that I've known for a while now was trying to get me into his religion, I mean I'm not trying to say they're religions are messed up and that's not right, it's just you need to see or rather "sense" when it's time to quit. I have my reasons for being an "unbeliever".

[LordLink]

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

that comes across like you feel one is 'better' or more correct/up to date. How does that avoid a flame war?? Perhaps I mis-interpreted this rather ambiguous 'analogy'. If so please elaborate more directly.

Sorry for this but it was not an analogy, it was just a joke besides if my informations are correct you can't really enter Judaism even if you choose to you'll always be considered not-fully-jewish or second-class-jewish. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, I respect all of them but you cannot deny that the latest is always the most up to date (if you take into consideration that they're from the same God)

It doesn't really matter if it's up to date what matters IMO is to take advice of what's in your religion and make your own vision

[Sandok]

But in a way, religion dumbs down the human intellect, no matter what vision... I personally find it insulting to my intelligence to believe in God.

Reasons for this? Well simply because you give EVERY question an easy answer. It's as if you take a test or exam where you can't figure out the answers so you put God in every possible nook and cranny. We are an amazing species with power beyond what the first Homo Sapien Sapiens would have imagined, why ruin it by contricting ourselves with the notion of God (and thus adding stupid blockages in the form of freedom, tabooness, etc.)

Boggles the mind someitmes.

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by Callandor

One thing I've noticed about religion is that when you're an atheist, people are continuosly always trying to "brain wash" you into their religion, just yesterday some guy was trying to get me to become a muslim, and the other day one of my good friends that I've known for a while now was trying to get me into his religion, I mean I'm not trying to say they're religions are messed up and that's not right, it's just you need to see or rather "sense" when it's time to quit. I have my reasons for being an "unbeliever".

Try what many atheists do with such people and throw a few tough questions at them, make them squirm, maybe even debate them if they're up for it. At the very least tell them why you're an Atheist.

I've been reading the lengthly section of "The Portable Atheist" from this book Amazon.com: Why I Am Not a Muslim: Books: Ibn Warraq it's a stunning dissection of the Koran from a Muslim and some good information to use when Muslims hassle you.

[Maddogg6]

One thing I've noticed about religion is that when you're an atheist, people are continuosly always trying to "brain wash" you into their religion

I agree - lets see - theres the born again christians (ouch, I wonder how mom survives that one ) - at the LA area beaches I used to have bug me constantly - most were reformed convicts/druggies.
Then there's the Jehovah witnesses that seem to always come around at the worst possible time (cooking dinner, coitus-interuptis, nephew I was baby sitting napping etc..) I had one run up behind me as I was taking garbage out - he was this close to getting decked as he startled me in doing so (I thought I was about to be mugged for a split second) - just to hand me a watchtower mag.

even if you choose to you'll always be considered not-fully-jewish or second-class-jewish.

got ya... some catholics are this way as well toward converts - so I have no doubts that is true at some level - BUT - I bet the synagogue would still accept a converts tithing.... I don't think that is a 'rule' - I doubt this is true... 'I call on all 'naturalized' jews to reject the converts'.

And... It really besides the point - as I *can* convert to judaism and practice the religion, believe as they believe reguardless of how other jews treat me .... for instance - how many neighbors fight over silly things and are both from same faith.... Sunni vs Shei muslims... so inner-faith hostility is true in any faith and thus moot. Inner faith prejudices occur in them all I am certain.

Well simply because you give EVERY question an easy answer

While I agree with what you are saying - what *really* gets me are the answers to *hard* questions - that too often end up at 'gods will' - which to me is an arrogant way out to avoid saying 'I don't know'.
To me, its like when parents saying 'because I said so' to a child. Its a non-answer to the question of 'why' just to mute a usually unreasonable child. As a child from a parent - its acceptable - but toward an adult asking a legitimate question - I don't understand how anyone would accept it as an answer from those who claim to have access to 'the all knowing'.

edit:
'I spoke with god....'
Well then - ask him for the answer then while your at it.
But it would seem god is allowed to make assertions with out reason. It would seem god is allowed secretive motives in his decisions that go un-questioned.
/edit

[LordLink]

Originally Posted by Sandok

But in a way, religion dumbs down the human intellect, no matter what vision... I personally find it insulting to my intelligence to believe in God.

There's a difference between what God really is and what you believe God is, so the first thing is to know what is the definition of God. For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. The god that a large number of people worship has got human qualities - therefore that proves one thing: you are in fact intelligent enough to not believe in such false god.

The concept of God is different in religions, it's the same (from what I know) in Judaism & Islam but different from the ones in Christianity & Buddhism

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

Try what many atheists do with such people and throw a few tough questions at them, make them squirm, maybe even debate them if they're up for it. At the very least tell them why you're an Atheist.

I've been reading the lengthly section of "The Portable Atheist" from this book Amazon.com: Why I Am Not a Muslim: Books: Ibn Warraq it's a stunning dissection of the Koran from a Muslim and some good information to use when Muslims hassle you.

I'll be interested to know some of the "facts" in that book, can you give some examples?

I partially agree with the author when he says "the distinction between what Muslims ought to do and what they in fact do; what they should have believed and done as opposed to what they actually believed and did". He should add the word most to the sentence "...what most Muslims ought to do and what they in fact do..." because pretending to know what all do is plain wrong