SH4President

I thought I might give you pro-Americans a quick rundown how the US have helped the world the last 50 years.

1953: U.S. overthrows Prime Minister Mossadeq of Iran. U.S. installs Shah as dictator.

1954: U.S overthrows democratically-elected President Arbenz of Guatemala. 200 000 civilians killed.

1963: U.S backs assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem.

1963-1975: American military kills 4 million people in southeast Asia.

Sept 11 1973: U.S stages coup in Chile. Democatically-elected President Salvador Allende assassinated. Dictator Augosto Pinochet installed.
5000 Chileans murdered.

1977: U.S backs military rulers of El Salvador. 70 000 Salvadorians killed.

1980: U.S trains Osama bin Laden and fellow terrorists to kill Soviets. CIA gives them $3 billion.

1981: Reagan administration trains and founds "contras". 30 000 Nicaraguans die.

1982: U.S provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians.

1983: White House secretly gives Iran weapons to kill Iraqis.

1989: CIA agent Manuel Noriega(also serving as President of Panama) disobeys orders from Washington. U.S invade Panama and removes
Noriega. 3000 Panamanians civilian casualties.

1990: Iraq invade Kuwait with weapons from U.S

1991: U.S enters Iraq. Bush reinstates dictator of Kuwait.

1998: Clinton bombs "weapons factory" in Sudan. Factory turns out to be making aspirin.

1991 and forward: UN estimates 500 000 Iraqi children have died from bombing and sanctions( this all before the war.)

2000-01: U.S gives Taliban-ruled Afghanistan $245 million in "aid".

Sept. 11 2001: Osama bin Laden uses his expert CIA training to murder 3000 people.

Any thoughts??

JavaFox

Take out US military involvement in any of those instances --except perhaps in Chile (I don't know enough about the situation there)-- and history would have been far, far worse.

At any rate, while the US has been brusque in its dealing with other countries during the Cold War, you people act like nothing has changed in the meantime. Why is it, when people talk about foreign policy of other nations, nobody ever says "Why should we take Germany seriously, they had the Nazis!"? Because that was over 50 years ago and things have changed since then.

Things have changed since then.

GOG

Yes, funding Iran, Iraq, bin Laden and Pinochet was a great contribution to world peace.

JavaFox

Yes, it was.

Without supporting the Shah of Iran, Mohammed Mossadeq would have 1) given over Iran's oil to the Soviet Union, 2) gave the Soviet Union a base in the Middle East.

Without later supporting Iraq, Iran may have won the Iran-Iraq War, leading to the spread of Islamic fundamentalism throughout the Middle East.

Without supporting bin Laden, the Soviets probably would have succesfully annexed Afghanistan.


This "morality" a lot of you anti-Americans have is well and fine, but it ignores the reality of world history. I have said it once, and I will say it again -- you cannot always ally yourself with Good Guys. Sometimes you have to pick the side of the guy that is LESS evil than the other. And throughout the time period described, there have been two basic Big Enemies -- the Soviet Union, and Islamic funadmentalism. If you can find examples of how the US failed an intervention that had nothing to do with fighting either of those two enemies, I will condemn it. But otherwise, you are living in a fantasy world.

SH4President

"Without supporting the Shah of Iran, Mohammed Mossadeq would have 1) given over Iran's oil to the Soviet Union, 2) gave the Soviet Union a base in the Middle East."
And how does this get to be any buisness of the US? Do the US have the right too dictate what other countries should and should not do???


"Without later supporting Iraq, Iran may have won the Iran-Iraq War, leading to the spread of Islamic fundamentalism throughout the Middle East."
Once again, what the h-ll have US got to do with Islam in Iran????You think the US have the right to tell the hole world what religion they should have???


"Without supporting bin Laden, the Soviets probably would have succesfully annexed Afghanistan."
You mean like the US have annexed Iraq now??????

Frodo301

Prehaps you would enjoy the iron fist of communism controling you instead, no? The freedom of going on this public forum taken away because of a few sharp comments you make in reference to the communist parties leadership and actions? Rationing, gov't control over your job, where you live, what you do, how and when you move about your country? That what you want SH4? Thats what you might just have if any of the above actions had taken place.

__________________
The greatest thing you'll every learn is to love, and be loved in return.

SH4President

So you think US have the right to tell other countries what they should and shouldnt do regarding their own country??
And if they dont do as US wants , well then US have the right to invade, overthrow the leader or assassinate him/her?
You think that is ok??

Frodo301

*You* started this thread by indicating what the US had done for world peace over the last 50 years. I simply indicated that if the USSR had been allowed a base of operations in the Middle East and allowed the bulk of oil from Iran that the political structure of the world may be very different today. If you want or desire to live under a communist govt state then thats fine with me, I don't and I'm fairly sure there are many on these forums who don't want to as well. In my opinions stated did I say anything indicate that I believe the US has the right to tell other countries what to do or invade if we do not agree with their politics?

__________________
The greatest thing you'll every learn is to love, and be loved in return.

The_Neon_Cowboy

forget iraq we need to be invadeing sweden ....

dude is there a time when you dont make an anti usa post ... becouse i have never seen one form you not 1

__________________

SH4President

Well was it right what US did with Mohammad Mossadeq in Iran??
If you think that was right then you think that the US have the right to tell other countries what to do in their own country!!
Simple as that.
Was it right or wasnt it to overthrow Mohammad Mossadeq and put the dictator Shah at power??

SH4President

And what lie would the US governmnet come up with to trick the American people to justify attacking Sweden??

Islamic fundamentalism probably doesnt work , Communism is dead.
Liberating the Swedes doesnt apply either??
But Im sure that Bush and propagandaminister Rumsfeldt would come up with something.
Maybe they could link the Swedish goverment to Alqaida!!!
Yes there we have it!! Link Swedens Primeminister to Alqaida and lets have him assassinated and put our own guy in sharge.

Lies, lies and more lies.
Thats how US have justyfied their actions in the past.

Falstaff

Either you were terribly altruistic and have become dissolutioned, or you actually believe what you say...but you cannot deny the United States is a powerful force in the world, like the soviet union, we have ventured above the stratosphere, walked the surface of the moon and lived in space for years now, and one day we will be dividing up the surface of planets and sending our spacecraft beyond the solar system, perhaps even in your lifetime...so say what you will, in your typically negative manner, but you cannot deny the success of the United States...can you?

__________________

digerati

The so many million in southeast asia, was that the Vietnam war? Cause you're giving very one sided statements. It isn't like they didn't kill any of us either. And it wasn't like they were very peaceful to begin with.

bluelight

Nobody is denying Usa Me personally i deny the rightwing goverbnment of Usa that is not the same thing although one mÃ*ght think from reading this forum and the Americans that are here that this is the case.


And...as always...

Where are the WMD´s....

Im gonna ask until its clarified.

You had proof.


The you had about 90 facilities which you claimed were very ...likely to be spots to find WMD´s.More than 70 of them have been searched.

Representatives for the peopole that currently are searching declare officilly they have little hope of finding anything at all.



Promises have been made to British ministers by Blair.....that you....America ....did have proof of WMDs Promises have ´been made to the Un....of the same....

The reason you declared to the UN for an immidiete attack and for over ruling the UN inspections etc....were based on THE FACT that you had evidence....

Now.....i want to see the evidence....which were the reason as to why your government spit on the UN and explained Blix and everyone that believed in the Un and its mission as idiots....

Or i want it declared that your government was talking bollocks and lied on purpose. to discredit Blix,UN and everyone that didnt share the idea of yours.



Bluelight

SH4President

???????
When did I say that the US wasnt a powerfull force??????
What are you talking about????
Im getting dissapointed in you fallang_jeff. Atleast in the past your posts were on the topic, but now I dont know what you doing?

You mean because the US is a powerfull force they have the right to invade other countries??
You mean because the US have walked on the moon the have the right to overthrow democratically-elected leaders of another country and install a dictator instead???
Not even you can think that is right, or can you???

JavaFox

Settle down, SH -- you're going to have an aneurism.

SH4President

Why dont you answer my questions instead??
Have you once again come to the conclusion that you are wrong??
And once again you come with silly remarks instead of continue the discussion??
Be a man and answer my questions!!
If not, please be quiet!! You dont add anything of value with your behavior!!!!!

mike2h

too late

__________________

mike2h

i am an addict! time to head down to rehab.

__________________

Falstaff

breakfast of champions....my weakness is Tuaca....

__________________

Falstaff

Mien Gott!
Voss is Loes?

__________________

SH4President

US military history must make you proud fallang_jeff??
Or doesnt it??
Land of the free, and home of the brave. SURE

Falstaff

In two wars, with a 2nd division U.S. Marines, On a battlehsip, on an LPH, on an LHA, on a carrier, In several submarines, and deployed with an aviation unit, saw some terrible shit. been shot at and shot back, I was pretty damn fortunate, some of my friends saved my ass, or I wouldn't be here today...I am proud of what I accomplished, I sacrificed and I gave alot for my country, and might have paid the ultimate price, except someone else did it for me.
I come from a christian background, and learned long ago that their will always be wars and rumours of wars, as long as there are people on this earth, gonna happen regardless, whether it is WMD or sticks and rocks and bottles.
I will always be grateful I was born an American and chose to live in America, I have lived in other places in Europe and Asia, and really enjoyed it...but America, it's my home.

I am going to wave the stars and stripes right now, wave it proudly, back and forth, it symbolizes freedom, determination, the pursuit of liberty and justice for all...

I still get a tear in my eye when I say the pledge of allegiance. and sing the star spangled banner.

If called to do so, I would get my unit one together, pull the old uniforms out and make another sacrifice for my country, it is what I do, and I do it well, I am damn proud of that..ask any marine in my platoon, who put the tourniquet on their leg, who pulled them into a trench under fire...who calmly counted each incoming round till it stopped thumping around us, and ran our asses off shooting behind us all the way...we were scared, damn scared, and I think it really transformed all of us, every single one of us..
War sucks...but you have to be able to fight and win..constant vigilance, jealously guard your borders..and project power when you have to, that is the legacy of my generation.

You asked me If I am proud of the United States military history, then I say yes, but except that this country and it's leaders have made some terrible mistakes, even our most historic and important presidents blundered diplomatically and took us to foriegn shores to fight hopeless battles where young men and women died. But they served proudly as well, God bless them all, the men and women of this great nation, who faithfully served and paid the ultimate price...but bless the peace makers, and never let them forget that freedom is not free, someone, somewhere may attempt to rest the power away from our great nation, by force or by guile. And people like me will be there, prepared, weapons at the ready, awaiting our orders and dispatching our units.

__________________

GOG

This is exactly what I hate about your nation and your people. You can in one sentence admit that you've been sent to places to fghts that were wrong. Then you talk about pride and honour among your soldiers, not a world about those who had your aggressions forced upon them. Frankly, I don't give a shit if your soldiers die like insects in a godforsken place somewhere, that's what they're paid to do. But I DO care when your army starts to kill civilians and then don't have the guts to admit it's mistakes.


Btw. Have you heard the latest about "the great hero" Jessica Flynch? Seems like it all was staged like a nice Hollywood movie after all, with "Special Forces" shooting blanks and all. She was in fact at a hospital, the only problem is that there were no precense of Iraqi military/surveillance what so ever. Wonder why such a fine army as yours has to fabricate rescue missions? THIS is what you're defending here.

Falstaff

I don't hate you GOG, and if your country needed help...I would be the first one on the plane or the ship as the case maybe...I think it is refreshing that people have the right to love and hate and dismiss any ideas or ideology that doesn't conform to the way they feel or believe. I respect the fact that you have the courage to say you disagree, but hate, and can't help but think that it really isn't hate...you would like to be an american too? Regardless of what you may have seen and heard, people in this nation can change the way we do things within a short time, if we really believe that is they way it should be done.

And the Jessica Lynch fabrication you spoke...do you have a link?

__________________

GOG

There will be a documentary about this "rescue" tomorrow at BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...nt/3028585.stm

Maybe you're right Jeff, maybe I don't hate you. Maybe I'm just dejected by the fact that everyone here (with a few exceptions) are so blinded by the supposed superiority of their own country, that they can't see when their own government is pumping them full with lies.

And no, I would not like to become an American

mike2h

and of course everybody is to stupid to see the 'truth' but you and a "few exceptions". did you ever think that every one else might be right & you wrong? & of course the us is the only government to practice lying & deception. get real. maybe those voices in your head are telling you it is time for a reality check. the us has made mistakes & will continue to make mistakes. like every other country on this planet. i do not have a problem with somebody saying " what your government just did was really bad" we are all suupposed to watchdog the worlds governments(f*** all the politicians). but you also need to do the "what your gov did was cool" because the us & most other countries do some very good things. get some perspective.

__________________

GOG

I wouldn't consider 4/5 of the UN member states to be exceptions.

"did you ever think that every one else might be right & you wrong?"

If only your government had asked itself exactly the same question before they invaded Iraq.

Yes, every country in the world makes mistakes, the only difference is when my country does one it doesn't include massacres on civilians.

Falstaff

Didn't sweden accept refugee jews during the second world war? surely they were involved.

and officially wasn't 99.5 percent of their able bodied men conscripted for service in 1940

and though officially nuetral, didn't Sweden become one of the best armed nations in the world?

didn't the swedish government unofficially conspire with the Nazis at some point to maintain their nuetrality?

Sweden traditionally has had some of the best designed and fielded weapons in the world, and their intelligence is superb.

When I served in the military in Nevada, we had swedish officers with us during desert training.

My point? things are not always what they appear to be...Sweden may have a harder job maintaining some nuetrality in all matters concerning war and war crimes trials, but they none the less have to participate on some level with powerful nations to keep abreast of the changing political climate.

__________________

mike2h

try reading the post & keeping it in context. the "exceptions" was a direct quote from your previous post referring to this forum. i will quote you again - " Maybe I'm just dejected by the fact that everyone here (with a few exceptions) are so blinded by the supposed superiority of their own country, that they can't see when their own government is pumping them full with lies." so try again. massacred citizens? you do realise that there were other countries involved in this besides the us dont you?

__________________