Cia..and WDM`s

mike2h · Jun 2, 2003, 06:31 PM

classic response. & funny!

mike2h · Jun 2, 2003, 06:43 PM

you mean like the us soldiers that were captured, executed, & photographed for all to see

~~bluelight~~ · Jun 2, 2003, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mike2h
classic response. & funny!

I wrote a reply to your earlier post...saying "Bollocks"..Because it was bollocks.

I then went back and edited it.Im not giving MR java the pleasue to do the moderator waltz so...there is no post...where im stating that your post....is bollocks.

None of you two are capable of reading.

You have consistently insisted in asking the same questions to which i have already answered several times before.

That is generally referred to as spamming.

Now im not answering your question anymore.

Leaving you here with some human treatment...of animals ...i think....yes it must be....animals...Thats right...couldnt be humans...

Good day.

Bluelight

~~bluelight~~ · Jun 2, 2003, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mike2h
you mean like the us soldiers that were captured, executed, & photographed for all to see

I haven t got a slightest idea of what you are talking about and i dont care.

I mean what it says..

Nothing else.

I want them treated ...as you treat others.

Simple.

You claim you treat these peole ok.So...then yopur sioldiers can be treated likewise.

Simple.

What it says.

Bluelight

mike2h · Jun 2, 2003, 07:12 PM

thank you! you completley validated my 184 & 185 posts where i predicted your response(s)!!

i am too

. now if only i could do that in the stock market!

mike2h · Jun 2, 2003, 07:13 PM

hey what is up with the post numbering? i got 2 184's, 2 185"s & i just deleted another 185.

digerati · Jun 2, 2003, 11:41 PM

You're showing us pictures of transportation and them taking them into the prison correct? Where do you expect the soldiers to handcuff them to? The walls? No one has a seat and you aren't supposed to let a prisoner see his surroundings before he enters. That way if he escapes he might get confused. Your arguement is flawed in my opinion.

Falstaff · Jun 3, 2003, 01:02 AM

Bluelight is having an emotional response to a photograph or series of photographs of detainees or prisoners as the case may be, processed for transfer, the orange suits in his opinion are demeaning as well as the obscured faces and bound hands..I believe he wants us to understand that he doesn't think this is the way prisoners should be treated,and he raised moral objections to said treatment, based on the photographs.
That because of nature and context of these photographs, certainly determines the level of dehuminization that these prisoners must be enduring for what he feels are false claims and spurious rumours. Although he agrees in part, that there must be a few bad apples among the bunch, we should expidite the legal proceedings and treat them as combatents under the Geneva Convention..And that perhaps they should be allowed to grow their beards, roam freely around camp X-ray under our watchful eye, and be recognized individually by their faces and enjoy other priveleges that prisoners enjoy under the Geneva convention....

But to be honest...I am not moved...I respect Bluelights position, but I believe it isn't nearly as bad as it seems for these men. They must be a valuable and credible intelliigence source, or they wouldn't continue to be there...

Therefore I can see Bluelights particuler side of the argument, I just disagree that is all, I personally feel the issue has been driven into the ground, that is why we don't see as much on our televisions as we used to. American sympathy has diminished for these men....

~~bluelight~~ · Jun 3, 2003, 07:08 AM

Ok...then...Im gonna ask one last question.

If and when Usa goes to war against someone in the future....then i suppose you will also accept it that:

When Americans are taken as p.o.w.`s they are placed in chicken cages,that they are dressed in alien suites and that they do not have trials that are according to the geneva convention.

If.....you reply yes to this.

Then..i say...fair enough.

If not...then i will claim frst of all that you are racists and that your values in this case are based on racist values....valuing Americans higher than others in a humanistic perspective.

I will also claim that you are working against the word and messahew of Jesus christ.

If....you claim that this is appropriate treatment ...for these people ..but not for Americans.

If you however think that this isnt really appropriate...for any human being...neither for victim..or for those putting these prisoners in ....chicken cages....

then i will consider you as humanists.

If not...your wiews are just mechanically programmed nationalist racist ones.

As see it.

Bluelight

digerati · Jun 3, 2003, 07:25 AM

I don't see it as being that simple.

mike2h · Jun 3, 2003, 07:53 AM

so if we agree with you we are okay.
if we disagree we are zombie racists.
do you have the ability to see outside the little box you are in?
i have been locked up before. i wore an alien suit(?), hell i had great big metal ankle & hand cuffs linked by a nice big heavy chain. only i did not get treated as good as these guys are. so this kind of treatment does apply to us citizens(when we screw up bad. & sometimes not).
of course according to you the way they treated our pow's is irelevant here. as is every fact, & opinion that is presented to you. instead or ranting on this thread about your extremely narrow view of this world, why dont you go out & experience it. you blow of everybody that responds to you without thinking, hey, he has been somewhere & seen & done things i have never experienced. but no, you go to your little sites & believe whatever you want to. try some real world living & get a real taste of reality. do some travelling since you are so eager to have such strong opinions about other countries. fyi. i have spent over 17 yrs in other countries. definitley does something for your perspective- which is someting you seem to lack. anyway - get a life, experience what you seem to be so interested in instead of letting some site feed you whatever drivel they beleive in.

JavaFox · Jun 3, 2003, 08:00 AM

Well, there is first and foremost, the question of whether or not terrorists (in this sense I mean unlawful and ununiformed combatants) should deserve the protections of the Geneva Convention. A "solider" that does not wear a uniform is not entitled to the protections of the Geneva Convention, I feel. That said, we still afford these men the rights of the Geneva Convention.

At any rate, bluelight. Your question asked how American POWs should be treated. So let me clarify.

1) American POWs can (and probably should) be restrained when transported.
2) They should be given adequate housing (warm, lit, and dry).
3) Per the Geneva Convention, our troops should be able to wear their uniforms*
4) American POWs should be given the right to practice their religion.
5) American POWs should not be interrogated on TV, and should only be shown (if ever) from far away.
6) American POWs can be put on trial (military or civilian) as long as it is fair.
7) American POW's dietarty needs should be met.
8) American POWs must be protected from the poplace**

In other words, American POWs MUST be treated just like the men at Guantanamo Bay.

---

* The Geneva Convention states that POWs should be able to wear their military uniforms. If they don't have any (which isn't true of America troops, but IS true of al Qaeda / Taliban troops) the Detaining Power MUST provide clothes.

** In other words, you can't have a POW camp in downtown Riyadh. The general population is likely to hurl insults at and threaten POWs. In the same way, having a POW camp in New York or Washington DC is also innappropriate and illegal. THAT is why the camp is in Cuba.

Falstaff · Jun 3, 2003, 08:05 AM

?

Blue,
first of all, the issue of detainees has absolutely nothing to do with the Christian prophet Jesus Christ. But with respect to muslim fundamentalist agenda of the Taliban and Al Quida, you could make a worthy argument that it is the Muslim prophet Muhammed that figures in prominently into the reasons why these men participated and sacrficed their freedom for Allah...If we hadn't captured them, I can assure you they would have died in suicide attacks, attacked coaltion forces, beaten women in Afghanistan for singing, dancing or learning how to read and write..Or perhaps taken weapons and explosives and blown up more religiouis relics in their zeal to keep the country of Afghanistan firmly in the stone age...

These photographs carry a great deal more wieght with you than with me, the blindfolds, the bound hands and the obscured identities are perfectly consistent with the extraordinary security measures that are in place for these detained combatents.
Remember this...they were armed before they were captured and most of them have taken human lives, perhaps even coalition lives before they were captured...Better they should have died for Muhammed in a firefight and gone to Allah than exist in Camp X-ray, but they do not deserve any of my pity, my concern or my support. They are political footballs at this point and there isn't a damn thing anyone of us can do about it, you cannot convince me to be anymore concerned about these men while they are encarcerated than anyone else that embraces their tribal mentality and goes about planning to kill americans..They are not innocent, they are warriors and personally I think they should die like warriors, at the barrel of a gun, at the tip of a bayonet or completely consumed by napalm, anything to expedite their journey to their god and prophet..They are not worthy of our concern, they are well taken care of, and so far even while detained have not been internationally exploited. We would not and I repeat very loudly, would not waste so much money detaining them unless they represented a credible source of information, this issue has really been beaten into the ground in this forum.
The most economical approach to ending this problem is asking them if they want to continue to support Al Quida and kill americans, if so, give them a running head start and start shooting, because if they get away, if they return to their homeland or flee somewhere else, they will no doubt return to try to kill us...I am not foolish enough to think that they would become pacifists and walk the path of non violence...THESE MEN ARE NOT PEACEFUL MUSLIMS AND NEVER WILL BE....they are Taliban and Al Quida.
I am not asking you to accept the photographs as fake, they indeed may be real, but they are not unusual, they are meant to be enflamatory and they are out of sync and context with what is really occuring in Camp X-ray...
Are american POWs exploited in captivity during the last wars?, hell yes, they were brutally murdered, tortured and mutilated for the sole purpose of demonstrating power over the United States. We are trained in the military to expect torture and will not surrender unless we have exhausted our ability to fight, and some of us fight to the death, because the only civilized nations that show decency to prisoners are the western powers. You will not get fair treatment from muslim religious fundamentalists...I am sure the Russians can give you morbid examples of the kind of treatment Russian prisoners recieved from the Taliban or Chechniyan rebels....You have to be realistic...
The whole concept of fair treatment for prisoners of war is a facade in my opinion, because the guidelines are so damn vague and subject to interpretation, we treat POW's and criminals a hell of alot better than anyone else...
I can safely say that we treat the Al Quida a hell of alot better than they would treat us...maybe that is where our christian values come into play, because we adhere to strict laws governing the treatment of prisoners...even under extaordinary circumstances...

mike2h · Jun 3, 2003, 08:14 AM

thx for good informative posts. wish i(& somebody else) had your patience & eloquence.

Falstaff · Jun 3, 2003, 08:22 AM

just trying to be polite, it doesn't pay for me to convince anyone of anything, but I got my point across, lots of europeans think we americans are racist, self indulgent bastards,, now isn't that the hieght of hypocracy?

digerati · Jun 3, 2003, 08:26 AM

Go jeff! Go jeff! Ra Ra Ra!

~~bluelight~~ · Jun 3, 2003, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mike2h
so if we agree with you we are okay.
if we disagree we are zombie racists.
do you have the ability to see outside the little box you are in?
i have been locked up before. i wore an alien suit(?), hell i had great big metal ankle & hand cuffs linked by a nice big heavy chain. only i did not get treated as good as these guys are. so this kind of treatment does apply to us citizens(when we screw up bad. & sometimes not).
of course according to you the way they treated our pow's is irelevant here. as is every fact, & opinion that is presented to you. instead or ranting on this thread about your extremely narrow view of this world, why dont you go out & experience it. you blow of everybody that responds to you without thinking, hey, he has been somewhere & seen & done things i have never experienced. but no, you go to your little sites & believe whatever you want to. try some real world living & get a real taste of reality. do some travelling since you are so eager to have such strong opinions about other countries. fyi. i have spent over 17 yrs in other countries. definitley does something for your perspective- which is someting you seem to lack. anyway - get a life, experience what you seem to be so interested in instead of letting some site feed you whatever drivel they beleive in.

Ok Java....do the moderator business.This has nothing to do with the issue.It is onbe of the more moronic posts i have sen here and it almost beats the ones where i was threatened by nice american patriots( that are still on this board) ...unlike SH in stupidity....

It is a personal attack which is totally irrelevant.He is not at all adressing the issue.

He is pondering about who i am which is first of all irrelevant..secondly...moronic.

Fix this..edit it or do whatever you want. But get this bullshit out from this board.

Cause bullshit is what it is...For some reason (unimaginable which) you dont see this but you do see the

bullshit posted by SH which led to that he got banned.

I have had enough bull from ignorant rightwing morons that prefer to attck me on a personal level instead os adressing the issues.

That is why i will leave this board.

Because....it doesnt change.

I have been personally ridiculed...threatened to life (three times this year ,once here twice elsewhere by rightwing patriot Americans) ....And i have i never seen anyone from any nation being threatened to death on the net other than by rightwing patriot americans.

That gives me a fine image..of fine american patriots...

Well under the circumstances....keep your rightwing America to yourself .Im not wasting words on you...and if ever you try to export yuorselves here.....you`ll be seeing me....

Bluelight

Bluelight

~~bluelight~~ · Jun 3, 2003, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JavaFox
Well, there is first and foremost, the question of whether or not terrorists (in this sense I mean unlawful and ununiformed combatants) should deserve the protections of the Geneva Convention. A "solider" that does not wear a uniform is not entitled to the protections of the Geneva Convention, I feel. That said, we still afford these men the rights of the Geneva Convention.

At any rate, bluelight. Your question asked how American POWs should be treated. So let me clarify.

1) American POWs can (and probably should) be restrained when transported.
2) They should be given adequate housing (warm, lit, and dry).
3) Per the Geneva Convention, our troops should be able to wear their uniforms*
4) American POWs should be given the right to practice their religion.
5) American POWs should not be interrogated on TV, and should only be shown (if ever) from far away.
6) American POWs can be put on trial (military or civilian) as long as it is fair.
7) American POW's dietarty needs should be met.
8) American POWs must be protected from the poplace**

In other words, American POWs MUST be treated just like the men at Guantanamo Bay.

---

* The Geneva Convention states that POWs should be able to wear their military uniforms. If they don't have any (which isn't true of America troops, but IS true of al Qaeda / Taliban troops) the Detaining Power MUST provide clothes.

** In other words, you can't have a POW camp in downtown Riyadh. The general population is likely to hurl insults at and threaten POWs. In the same way, having a POW camp in New York or Washington DC is also innappropriate and illegal. THAT is why the camp is in Cuba.

One final word to you before i quit this discussion

Well then that is clarifying.

Only thing is.....the day when what you describe as ok....Americans in chicken cages and dressed in aliensuites ...that day the American public will go bonkers and demand that the nation holding those prisoners is nuked.

And no you are wrong they are held at Guantanamo because otherwise American legislation would force the Us to charge these prisoners within a specified amount of time.

Finally i hope to see Americans in chicken cages according to your wish on how to treat p.o.w.`s humanely.

Bluelight

~~bluelight~~ · Jun 3, 2003, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fallang_jeff
?

Blue,
first of all, the issue of detainees has absolutely nothing to do with the Christian prophet Jesus Christ. But with respect to muslim fundamentalist agenda of the Taliban and Al Quida, you could make a worthy argument that it is the Muslim prophet Muhammed that figures in prominently into the reasons why these men participated and sacrficed their freedom for Allah...If we hadn't captured them, I can assure you they would have died in suicide attacks, attacked coaltion forces, beaten women in Afghanistan for singing, dancing or learning how to read and write..Or perhaps taken weapons and explosives and blown up more religiouis relics in their zeal to keep the country of Afghanistan firmly in the stone age...

These photographs carry a great deal more wieght with you than with me, the blindfolds, the bound hands and the obscured identities are perfectly consistent with the extraordinary security measures that are in place for these detained combatents.
Remember this...they were armed before they were captured and most of them have taken human lives, perhaps even coalition lives before they were captured...Better they should have died for Muhammed in a firefight and gone to Allah than exist in Camp X-ray, but they do not deserve any of my pity, my concern or my support. They are political footballs at this point and there isn't a damn thing anyone of us can do about it, you cannot convince me to be anymore concerned about these men while they are encarcerated than anyone else that embraces their tribal mentality and goes about planning to kill americans..They are not innocent, they are warriors and personally I think they should die like warriors, at the barrel of a gun, at the tip of a bayonet or completely consumed by napalm, anything to expedite their journey to their god and prophet..They are not worthy of our concern, they are well taken care of, and so far even while detained have not been internationally exploited. We would not and I repeat very loudly, would not waste so much money detaining them unless they represented a credible source of information, this issue has really been beaten into the ground in this forum.
The most economical approach to ending this problem is asking them if they want to continue to support Al Quida and kill americans, if so, give them a running head start and start shooting, because if they get away, if they return to their homeland or flee somewhere else, they will no doubt return to try to kill us...I am not foolish enough to think that they would become pacifists and walk the path of non violence...THESE MEN ARE NOT PEACEFUL MUSLIMS AND NEVER WILL BE....they are Taliban and Al Quida.
I am not asking you to accept the photographs as fake, they indeed may be real, but they are not unusual, they are meant to be enflamatory and they are out of sync and context with what is really occuring in Camp X-ray...
Are american POWs exploited in captivity during the last wars?, hell yes, they were brutally murdered, tortured and mutilated for the sole purpose of demonstrating power over the United States. We are trained in the military to expect torture and will not surrender unless we have exhausted our ability to fight, and some of us fight to the death, because the only civilized nations that show decency to prisoners are the western powers. You will not get fair treatment from muslim religious fundamentalists...I am sure the Russians can give you morbid examples of the kind of treatment Russian prisoners recieved from the Taliban or Chechniyan rebels....You have to be realistic...
The whole concept of fair treatment for prisoners of war is a facade in my opinion, because the guidelines are so damn vague and subject to interpretation, we treat POW's and criminals a hell of alot better than anyone else...
I can safely say that we treat the Al Quida a hell of alot better than they would treat us...maybe that is where our christian values come into play, because we adhere to strict laws governing the treatment of prisoners...even under extaordinary circumstances...

Jeff...everything has to do with Jesus...and God...if one believe in their existance.

The autheticity of these photos.

I dont know why you question this.If its not because you think that what happens on the images is "unpleasant"

If the actual happening on the photos are relevant and appropriate to how one is to treat humans in a non humiliating way.....then i have a hard time understanding what the importance is wheter the image is fake or not.

In that case the image describes something that is ok.

Well...the images are not fakes.I know for sure that the images from inside Guantanamo are NOT fakes.I also know for sure that what i see is humiliating to both prisoners and...guards.

Images....meant ..to be inflammatory.....

Jeff....an image....is...an image.

Nothing else. Had they been charicatures or designs...then you would have a point...but a photo ..is a photo.....the rest...happens in our heads.And the photos are genuie.They have been published in all major media all over the world.There have been journalists invited to Guantanamo.Just after the start of the camp.This is a fact.

The prisoners are not well treated..if you claim you treat your own prisoners similar..(house them in chicken cages as an example) then that just says how in humane your system is nothing else.

Your nation is not a divined measurement of humanity. for the rest of the world.

You might be a step closer to that the day you get rid of the death punishment which is something you share with most of this globes dictatorships and development countries.

Ok.

Have a good summer and take care.

Bluelight

Falstaff · Jun 3, 2003, 02:53 PM

Blue,
I read the european press's version of the events that occured after the attacks, but what they fail to mention is that other attempts were thwarted by a hieghtened threat posture. Unfortunately around 700 people or so were detained for an inordinate amount of time, and some were probably mistreated, facing verbal abuse from guards, and all were denied access to proper legal council and are now seeking damages. There is now an ongoing investigation into the extent of this problem, to reveal flaws in our judicial system and isolate individuals that acted with malice and prejudice towards arabs and americans of arab descent. My point is that Americans are sensitive to those that were unlawfully detained and treated unfairly in the wake of 9/11, and yet we are bashed in the european press.. I maintain that this occur anywhere under the same circumstances. I am glad no one else was hurt. but numerous suspects were also allowed to slip out of the country, much to the chagrine of our embattled intelligence networks in the FBI and the CIA. If there was ever a case for 5th column efforts in the U.S. by arab americans and arab citizens this is it. But Americans to go knocking on doors and dragging these people out in the street to face the wrath of non-arabs, a hundred years ago, I couldn't make that statement. I maintain that racism exists across the seas in other countries as well, and Americans are unfairly characterized as warmongers and rascists and that couldn't be further from the truth.
The treatment and or mistreatment of the detainees in Cuba has been grossly over exaggerated and has taken on a new life for itself. I understand that several incidents between prisoners and guards led to deaths when these men were allowed more freedom..Many were released because they represented no threat to U.S. interests and their families brokered a deal if you will with our government. Those that remain will no doubt continue to remain until we can clearly determine the links they have with terrorist organizations, we know they are terrorists, we know they represent core elements within Al Quida, and we know they had considerable power within their organizations, they exist in legal limbo and will remain there until we are comfortable with an outcome for them.....whether we execute them, send them home, or encarcerate them....I know this goes against the very fibre of every "christian" value that many possess and I am not in disagreement with your assertion that some moral dynamic should prevail here and therefore determine their fate..
If you gave me the power to end this, the power to once and for all determine the fate of these men, based on what I know now......I would sentence them for captial crimes after a speedy trial, or I would extract assurances from them after their cooperation, and release them back to their ancestoral homes with enough dinars in their pocket for them to sustain themselves...or lastly give them a head start and treat them as they would treat their own in Afghanistan...like animals...
I would not however, continue to pay for there encarceration....You and I are in disagreement...they should not remain in legal limbo....we should once and for all determine their fate now....and quite spending tax dollars feeding them , clothing them, providing television and clergy, etc etc....
Because they cost more to detain than any american in our penal system...
Perhaps if 9/11 never happened we wouldn't have these men in our custody, but it did, and as a nation we have little or no sympathy for them save the reaction from a few photographs....
I implore you to examine the photo's of work crews on highways in the midwest and the south in the United states......They all wear orange, they work for free picking up garbage on our highways and cutting weeds, they are fed like prisoners and they might be shot if they attempt escape. The only difference between these men in Cuba and our chain gangs is that eventually american prisoners can give up their prisoner numbers when they serve their sentence....and possibly return to a normal life, but then,they are not terrorists either...

JavaFox · Jun 3, 2003, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Fix this..edit it or do whatever you want. But get this bullshit out from this board.

Cause bullshit is what it is...For some reason (unimaginable which) you dont see this but you do see the bullshit posted by SH which led to that he got banned.

SH4President and mike2h are totally unlike. SH4President called one of our members a "babykiller" and never posted more than 4 lines. He was not a contributor, and only partcipated on this board to piss people off. He was warned numerous times before and since he didn't heed those warnings, he was banned.

Mike2h, has essentially posted a reasonable statement. He has called your view "narrow" (which is a normative judgement, not pure insult), he has said you have avoided answering questions (which you have), and he told you about his own life experience. He basically just asked you to try to consider other people's thoughts and experiences. THAT said, there were some minor insults in his speech ("get a life"), but nothing that should get him banned. I don't know why you want me to edit his messages; we don't really edit posts -- not even SH4 has been edited out. At any rate, you accuse me of not being a moderator, even though I have talked to Mike in private before, and he has, according to my judgement, toned down his messages quite a bit.

I don't consider what Mike has posted to be an aggressive personal attack. Has he called you names like "babykiller"? No, he told you to get some perspective. BUT if we could keep insults out of this forum (This goes for everyone -- bluelight, Mike2h, myself, and everyone else), it would be much appreciated.

So... Mike, please try not to use any form of insult against bluelight. And, bluelight, it would behoove you not to refer to a member's (whom you call "moronic") posts as "bullshit."

~~bluelight~~ · Jun 3, 2003, 04:16 PM

Ok so then i will leave this board for good.

You are biased.

It os ok tpo attack me personally.

I actually did moderate a large forum a while ago.

I found that remaing unbiased....was impossible while participating in the discussions.

I choose to resign..

You should consider the same.....You are partial.

And...you are completly wrong about....4 letter phrases.He was angry..he was a moron at times...but he did also write full scale posts.

There have been others...that have been...angry..moronic and general pains in the ass....on the right wing side.

They are all still here.

Funny.

One of thme thought it would be a good idea to kill me....

Funny...he is still here...

Even funnier....is...the last 6 months...i have been threatened 3 times to be killed....once here ..twice else where...all three times by Americans...

None of them....had any argumnents to meet mine...

So i have had enough of right wing americans for a while.

Bluelight

~~bluelight~~ · Jun 3, 2003, 04:26 PM

Finally...your hint to me..at the end of ypur post claiming i am to be blamed for anything here...is just pathetic.

Bluelight

JavaFox · Jun 3, 2003, 04:46 PM

Yes, well, ByteMe was pretty vehemently right-wing in this views and caustic in his opining... and he has been banned, has he not? I have been warned in the past for being insulting and I have, in large part, cleaned up my act. Likewise for many members. I have warned Mike2h for his insults, and I have warned you for yours. I am not impartial in my views, but I am impartial in my moderation. If you feel otherwise, by all means, let WyretheWolf (Moderation team leader) know! That is the reason there is more than one moderator.

I have no interest in seeing you leave this forum and invite you to stay. I for one have found your European worldview quite interesting and enlightening at times, and I think you would do this forum a great disservice in leaving. But if you still want to leave, that is your prerogative.

mike2h · Jun 3, 2003, 04:46 PM

Quote:

So... Mike, please try not to use any form of insult against bluelight. And, bluelight, it would behoove you not to refer to a member's (whom you call "moronic") posts as "bullshit."

for any direct insult, i apoligise. for the post as a whole i do not. as javafox said it was not meant to be an insult, but rather an attempt to help you see other peoples views, & to look at the way you present your views.
as for your following rants ...

... well, enough said.

~~bluelight~~ · Jun 3, 2003, 09:32 PM

Well i am sorry for the outburt..some of it was relevant..some not.

I will take a break from this place..were not getting anywhere at all and im alone in writing regularly.."from my side of it all" that and the obvious advantage you have in expressing yourself in your own langugae makes it tough...so..holiday...

Oh..before i leave....WMD´s will be found.....Soon..

The congress will start interrogations as to why....the WMD´s for which there were proof and exact locations were not found.

Rumsfeld and Powell will be questioned....

So....expect them soon.....

Take care....

Bluelight

Falstaff · Jun 4, 2003, 01:32 AM

I know it may not seem fair sometimes, but the european mind is not really different from the american mind with respect to accepting what our media and governments tell us. We equally question the validity of everything and can be terribly cynical, but these days we might error on the side of our President and our government, with some exceptions. The bull excrement is just as deep here as it is in Sweden, perhaps more so, if we were privileged to the same kind of media that you watch or enjoy then it might help some of us develope some perspective, it is easy to lose it sometimes, wouldn't you agree?
I have to step away myself once in awhile...to maintain my balance as well....take care blue, get your second wind, and pick our brains again soon....

Jun 2, 2003, 06:31 PM	#181
mike2h DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: norcal Posts: 6,483 Rep Power: 91 System Specs	classic response. & funny! __________________

Jun 2, 2003, 06:43 PM	#182
mike2h DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: norcal Posts: 6,483 Rep Power: 91 System Specs	bluelight you mean like the us soldiers that were captured, executed, & photographed for all to see __________________

Jun 2, 2003, 07:12 PM	#185
mike2h DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: norcal Posts: 6,483 Rep Power: 91 System Specs	bluelight thank you! you completley validated my 184 & 185 posts where i predicted your response(s)!! i am too . now if only i could do that in the stock market!

Jun 2, 2003, 07:13 PM	#186
mike2h DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: norcal Posts: 6,483 Rep Power: 91 System Specs	post #s hey what is up with the post numbering? i got 2 184's, 2 185"s & i just deleted another 185. __________________

Jun 3, 2003, 01:02 AM	#188
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	It is clear to me... Bluelight is having an emotional response to a photograph or series of photographs of detainees or prisoners as the case may be, processed for transfer, the orange suits in his opinion are demeaning as well as the obscured faces and bound hands..I believe he wants us to understand that he doesn't think this is the way prisoners should be treated,and he raised moral objections to said treatment, based on the photographs. That because of nature and context of these photographs, certainly determines the level of dehuminization that these prisoners must be enduring for what he feels are false claims and spurious rumours. Although he agrees in part, that there must be a few bad apples among the bunch, we should expidite the legal proceedings and treat them as combatents under the Geneva Convention..And that perhaps they should be allowed to grow their beards, roam freely around camp X-ray under our watchful eye, and be recognized individually by their faces and enjoy other priveleges that prisoners enjoy under the Geneva convention.... But to be honest...I am not moved...I respect Bluelights position, but I believe it isn't nearly as bad as it seems for these men. They must be a valuable and credible intelliigence source, or they wouldn't continue to be there... Therefore I can see Bluelights particuler side of the argument, I just disagree that is all, I personally feel the issue has been driven into the ground, that is why we don't see as much on our televisions as we used to. American sympathy has diminished for these men.... __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jun 2, 2003, 11:41 PM	#187
digerati Everyones life has worth Join Date: May 2003 Location: My Yellow Bug Posts: 3,779 Rep Power: 0	You're showing us pictures of transportation and them taking them into the prison correct? Where do you expect the soldiers to handcuff them to? The walls? No one has a seat and you aren't supposed to let a prisoner see his surroundings before he enters. That way if he escapes he might get confused. Your arguement is flawed in my opinion.

Jun 3, 2003, 07:08 AM	Thread Starter #189
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Ok...then...Im gonna ask one last question. If and when Usa goes to war against someone in the future....then i suppose you will also accept it that: When Americans are taken as p.o.w.`s they are placed in chicken cages,that they are dressed in alien suites and that they do not have trials that are according to the geneva convention. If.....you reply yes to this. Then..i say...fair enough. If not...then i will claim frst of all that you are racists and that your values in this case are based on racist values....valuing Americans higher than others in a humanistic perspective. I will also claim that you are working against the word and messahew of Jesus christ. If....you claim that this is appropriate treatment ...for these people ..but not for Americans. If you however think that this isnt really appropriate...for any human being...neither for victim..or for those putting these prisoners in ....chicken cages.... then i will consider you as humanists. If not...your wiews are just mechanically programmed nationalist racist ones. As see it. Bluelight

Jun 3, 2003, 07:25 AM	#190
digerati Everyones life has worth Join Date: May 2003 Location: My Yellow Bug Posts: 3,779 Rep Power: 0	I don't see it as being that simple.

Jun 3, 2003, 07:53 AM	#191
mike2h DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: norcal Posts: 6,483 Rep Power: 91 System Specs	bluelight so if we agree with you we are okay. if we disagree we are zombie racists. do you have the ability to see outside the little box you are in? i have been locked up before. i wore an alien suit(?), hell i had great big metal ankle & hand cuffs linked by a nice big heavy chain. only i did not get treated as good as these guys are. so this kind of treatment does apply to us citizens(when we screw up bad. & sometimes not). of course according to you the way they treated our pow's is irelevant here. as is every fact, & opinion that is presented to you. instead or ranting on this thread about your extremely narrow view of this world, why dont you go out & experience it. you blow of everybody that responds to you without thinking, hey, he has been somewhere & seen & done things i have never experienced. but no, you go to your little sites & believe whatever you want to. try some real world living & get a real taste of reality. do some travelling since you are so eager to have such strong opinions about other countries. fyi. i have spent over 17 yrs in other countries. definitley does something for your perspective- which is someting you seem to lack. anyway - get a life, experience what you seem to be so interested in instead of letting some site feed you whatever drivel they beleive in.

Jun 3, 2003, 08:00 AM	#192
JavaFox E Pluribus Unum Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,203 Rep Power: 0	Well, there is first and foremost, the question of whether or not terrorists (in this sense I mean unlawful and ununiformed combatants) should deserve the protections of the Geneva Convention. A "solider" that does not wear a uniform is not entitled to the protections of the Geneva Convention, I feel. That said, we still afford these men the rights of the Geneva Convention. At any rate, bluelight. Your question asked how American POWs should be treated. So let me clarify. 1) American POWs can (and probably should) be restrained when transported. 2) They should be given adequate housing (warm, lit, and dry). 3) Per the Geneva Convention, our troops should be able to wear their uniforms* 4) American POWs should be given the right to practice their religion. 5) American POWs should not be interrogated on TV, and should only be shown (if ever) from far away. 6) American POWs can be put on trial (military or civilian) as long as it is fair. 7) American POW's dietarty needs should be met. 8) American POWs must be protected from the poplace In other words, American POWs MUST** be treated just like the men at Guantanamo Bay. --- * The Geneva Convention states that POWs should be able to wear their military uniforms. If they don't have any (which isn't true of America troops, but IS true of al Qaeda / Taliban troops) the Detaining Power MUST provide clothes. ** In other words, you can't have a POW camp in downtown Riyadh. The general population is likely to hurl insults at and threaten POWs. In the same way, having a POW camp in New York or Washington DC is also innappropriate and illegal. THAT is why the camp is in Cuba.

Jun 3, 2003, 08:05 AM	#193
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	If not...your wiews are just mechanically programmed nationalist racist ones. ? Blue, first of all, the issue of detainees has absolutely nothing to do with the Christian prophet Jesus Christ. But with respect to muslim fundamentalist agenda of the Taliban and Al Quida, you could make a worthy argument that it is the Muslim prophet Muhammed that figures in prominently into the reasons why these men participated and sacrficed their freedom for Allah...If we hadn't captured them, I can assure you they would have died in suicide attacks, attacked coaltion forces, beaten women in Afghanistan for singing, dancing or learning how to read and write..Or perhaps taken weapons and explosives and blown up more religiouis relics in their zeal to keep the country of Afghanistan firmly in the stone age... These photographs carry a great deal more wieght with you than with me, the blindfolds, the bound hands and the obscured identities are perfectly consistent with the extraordinary security measures that are in place for these detained combatents. Remember this...they were armed before they were captured and most of them have taken human lives, perhaps even coalition lives before they were captured...Better they should have died for Muhammed in a firefight and gone to Allah than exist in Camp X-ray, but they do not deserve any of my pity, my concern or my support. They are political footballs at this point and there isn't a damn thing anyone of us can do about it, you cannot convince me to be anymore concerned about these men while they are encarcerated than anyone else that embraces their tribal mentality and goes about planning to kill americans..They are not innocent, they are warriors and personally I think they should die like warriors, at the barrel of a gun, at the tip of a bayonet or completely consumed by napalm, anything to expedite their journey to their god and prophet..They are not worthy of our concern, they are well taken care of, and so far even while detained have not been internationally exploited. We would not and I repeat very loudly, would not waste so much money detaining them unless they represented a credible source of information, this issue has really been beaten into the ground in this forum. The most economical approach to ending this problem is asking them if they want to continue to support Al Quida and kill americans, if so, give them a running head start and start shooting, because if they get away, if they return to their homeland or flee somewhere else, they will no doubt return to try to kill us...I am not foolish enough to think that they would become pacifists and walk the path of non violence...THESE MEN ARE NOT PEACEFUL MUSLIMS AND NEVER WILL BE....they are Taliban and Al Quida. I am not asking you to accept the photographs as fake, they indeed may be real, but they are not unusual, they are meant to be enflamatory and they are out of sync and context with what is really occuring in Camp X-ray... Are american POWs exploited in captivity during the last wars?, hell yes, they were brutally murdered, tortured and mutilated for the sole purpose of demonstrating power over the United States. We are trained in the military to expect torture and will not surrender unless we have exhausted our ability to fight, and some of us fight to the death, because the only civilized nations that show decency to prisoners are the western powers. You will not get fair treatment from muslim religious fundamentalists...I am sure the Russians can give you morbid examples of the kind of treatment Russian prisoners recieved from the Taliban or Chechniyan rebels....You have to be realistic... The whole concept of fair treatment for prisoners of war is a facade in my opinion, because the guidelines are so damn vague and subject to interpretation, we treat POW's and criminals a hell of alot better than anyone else... I can safely say that we treat the Al Quida a hell of alot better than they would treat us...maybe that is where our christian values come into play, because we adhere to strict laws governing the treatment of prisoners...even under extaordinary circumstances... __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jun 3, 2003, 08:14 AM	#194
mike2h DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: norcal Posts: 6,483 Rep Power: 91 System Specs	java & jeff thx for good informative posts. wish i(& somebody else) had your patience & eloquence. __________________

Jun 3, 2003, 08:22 AM	#195
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	thanx bro just trying to be polite, it doesn't pay for me to convince anyone of anything, but I got my point across, lots of europeans think we americans are racist, self indulgent bastards,, now isn't that the hieght of hypocracy? __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jun 3, 2003, 08:26 AM	#196
digerati Everyones life has worth Join Date: May 2003 Location: My Yellow Bug Posts: 3,779 Rep Power: 0	Go jeff! Go jeff! Ra Ra Ra!

Jun 3, 2003, 02:53 PM	#200
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Post 9/11 repercussions... Blue, I read the european press's version of the events that occured after the attacks, but what they fail to mention is that other attempts were thwarted by a hieghtened threat posture. Unfortunately around 700 people or so were detained for an inordinate amount of time, and some were probably mistreated, facing verbal abuse from guards, and all were denied access to proper legal council and are now seeking damages. There is now an ongoing investigation into the extent of this problem, to reveal flaws in our judicial system and isolate individuals that acted with malice and prejudice towards arabs and americans of arab descent. My point is that Americans are sensitive to those that were unlawfully detained and treated unfairly in the wake of 9/11, and yet we are bashed in the european press.. I maintain that this occur anywhere under the same circumstances. I am glad no one else was hurt. but numerous suspects were also allowed to slip out of the country, much to the chagrine of our embattled intelligence networks in the FBI and the CIA. If there was ever a case for 5th column efforts in the U.S. by arab americans and arab citizens this is it. But Americans to go knocking on doors and dragging these people out in the street to face the wrath of non-arabs, a hundred years ago, I couldn't make that statement. I maintain that racism exists across the seas in other countries as well, and Americans are unfairly characterized as warmongers and rascists and that couldn't be further from the truth. The treatment and or mistreatment of the detainees in Cuba has been grossly over exaggerated and has taken on a new life for itself. I understand that several incidents between prisoners and guards led to deaths when these men were allowed more freedom..Many were released because they represented no threat to U.S. interests and their families brokered a deal if you will with our government. Those that remain will no doubt continue to remain until we can clearly determine the links they have with terrorist organizations, we know they are terrorists, we know they represent core elements within Al Quida, and we know they had considerable power within their organizations, they exist in legal limbo and will remain there until we are comfortable with an outcome for them.....whether we execute them, send them home, or encarcerate them....I know this goes against the very fibre of every "christian" value that many possess and I am not in disagreement with your assertion that some moral dynamic should prevail here and therefore determine their fate.. If you gave me the power to end this, the power to once and for all determine the fate of these men, based on what I know now......I would sentence them for captial crimes after a speedy trial, or I would extract assurances from them after their cooperation, and release them back to their ancestoral homes with enough dinars in their pocket for them to sustain themselves...or lastly give them a head start and treat them as they would treat their own in Afghanistan...like animals... I would not however, continue to pay for there encarceration....You and I are in disagreement...they should not remain in legal limbo....we should once and for all determine their fate now....and quite spending tax dollars feeding them , clothing them, providing television and clergy, etc etc.... Because they cost more to detain than any american in our penal system... Perhaps if 9/11 never happened we wouldn't have these men in our custody, but it did, and as a nation we have little or no sympathy for them save the reaction from a few photographs.... I implore you to examine the photo's of work crews on highways in the midwest and the south in the United states......They all wear orange, they work for free picking up garbage on our highways and cutting weeds, they are fed like prisoners and they might be shot if they attempt escape. The only difference between these men in Cuba and our chain gangs is that eventually american prisoners can give up their prisoner numbers when they serve their sentence....and possibly return to a normal life, but then,they are not terrorists either... __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jun 3, 2003, 04:16 PM	Thread Starter #202
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Ok so then i will leave this board for good. You are biased. It os ok tpo attack me personally. I actually did moderate a large forum a while ago. I found that remaing unbiased....was impossible while participating in the discussions. I choose to resign.. You should consider the same.....You are partial. And...you are completly wrong about....4 letter phrases.He was angry..he was a moron at times...but he did also write full scale posts. There have been others...that have been...angry..moronic and general pains in the ass....on the right wing side. They are all still here. Funny. One of thme thought it would be a good idea to kill me.... Funny...he is still here... Even funnier....is...the last 6 months...i have been threatened 3 times to be killed....once here ..twice else where...all three times by Americans... None of them....had any argumnents to meet mine... So i have had enough of right wing americans for a while. Bluelight Last edited by bluelight; Jun 3, 2003 at 04:25 PM.

Jun 3, 2003, 04:26 PM	Thread Starter #203
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Finally...your hint to me..at the end of ypur post claiming i am to be blamed for anything here...is just pathetic. Bluelight

Jun 3, 2003, 04:46 PM	#204
JavaFox E Pluribus Unum Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,203 Rep Power: 0	Yes, well, ByteMe was pretty vehemently right-wing in this views and caustic in his opining... and he has been banned, has he not? I have been warned in the past for being insulting and I have, in large part, cleaned up my act. Likewise for many members. I have warned Mike2h for his insults, and I have warned you for yours. I am not impartial in my views, but I am impartial in my moderation. If you feel otherwise, by all means, let WyretheWolf (Moderation team leader) know! That is the reason there is more than one moderator. I have no interest in seeing you leave this forum and invite you to stay. I for one have found your European worldview quite interesting and enlightening at times, and I think you would do this forum a great disservice in leaving. But if you still want to leave, that is your prerogative.

Jun 3, 2003, 09:32 PM	Thread Starter #206
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Well i am sorry for the outburt..some of it was relevant..some not. I will take a break from this place..were not getting anywhere at all and im alone in writing regularly.."from my side of it all" that and the obvious advantage you have in expressing yourself in your own langugae makes it tough...so..holiday... Oh..before i leave....WMD´s will be found.....Soon.. The congress will start interrogations as to why....the WMD´s for which there were proof and exact locations were not found. Rumsfeld and Powell will be questioned.... So....expect them soon..... Take care.... Bluelight

Jun 4, 2003, 01:32 AM	#207
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	hang in there blue... I know it may not seem fair sometimes, but the european mind is not really different from the american mind with respect to accepting what our media and governments tell us. We equally question the validity of everything and can be terribly cynical, but these days we might error on the side of our President and our government, with some exceptions. The bull excrement is just as deep here as it is in Sweden, perhaps more so, if we were privileged to the same kind of media that you watch or enjoy then it might help some of us develope some perspective, it is easy to lose it sometimes, wouldn't you agree? I have to step away myself once in awhile...to maintain my balance as well....take care blue, get your second wind, and pick our brains again soon.... __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."