The roadmap...was a bluff.

~~bluelight~~ · May 24, 2003, 11:54 AM

Ok it was as i thought ..a bluff .

Usa has accepted to change tghe contents of the roadmap to suit the Israelis.

The idea of the roadmap was...thjat i should be un negotiable for both parties.

The Palestinians accepted the roadmap as it is.

Israel did not.

The major point the Israelis have is that the Palestinian refugees are NOT to be allowed to return (while they of course themselves can have an unlimited immigration ).

Usa has now said that they will listen to and have in mind...Israels demand for changes.

That means the roadmap plan...is dead.

Personally i think it is intentional because makeing these exceptions to the Israelis is so unbelievably stupid and ignorant that it must be intentional.

Bluelight

Dom · May 24, 2003, 11:56 AM

Where'd you hear this?

~~bluelight~~ · May 24, 2003, 02:28 PM

I read it today so it must have been decided yesterday.ALso hear that plans are that Bush is going to Jerusalem to meet both parties in some time....

Perfect for re elections...only..it wont work.If they think that they can alllow Israels apartheid "homeland plans" for the Palestinians and that this will create peace then they are mistaken seriously...

And of course they know this.

Its just theater.

Jusy like after the last gulf war.'

Bluelight

JavaFox · May 27, 2003, 04:56 AM

I think its safe to say that your anti-US posts, bluelight, all need to be taken with a grain of salt.

--

JERUSALEM [MENL] -- Israel has accepted the U.S.-sponsored roadmap for the establishment of a Palestinian state by the end of 2003.

The Cabinet of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon voted to approve the roadmap on Sunday. Ministers acknowledged that the 12-7 vote came despite the U.S. refusal to include any of Israel's reservations in the peace plan. A key revision proposed by Israel was for the Palestinians to drop their demand for the return of refugees to Israel.

(Middle East Newsline)

Falstaff · May 27, 2003, 05:28 AM

If the palestinians accept this, it would be a major hurdle accomplished without further bloodshed, but I cannot help but think this is a false peace...calm before the storm...I am worried about what Syria wil do now. Perhaps gain support from Russia and rebuild it's armies with soviet support.

~~bluelight~~ · May 27, 2003, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JavaFox
I think its safe to say that your anti-US posts, bluelight, all need to be taken with a grain of salt.

--

JERUSALEM [MENL] -- Israel has accepted the U.S.-sponsored roadmap for the establishment of a Palestinian state by the end of 2003.

The Cabinet of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon voted to approve the roadmap on Sunday. Ministers acknowledged that the 12-7 vote came despite the U.S. refusal to include any of Israel's reservations in the peace plan. A key revision proposed by Israel was for the Palestinians to drop their demand for the return of refugees to Israel.

(Middle East Newsline)

Bush has said that he ...will take into consideration that none of the currently 4 million Palestinians that currently live as refugees should be allowed to return to Palestine.

he has also said he will consider that some of the settlements on occupied land wiöll remain.

Ok...the basis for the roadmap...was:

NO chnages i the originbal setup.

The Palsestinians accepted it as it was.

The accepted to play ther game.

Sharon did not.

So Bush adapted the game to hois friends needs.

That IS a fact.

Bluelight

~~bluelight~~ · May 27, 2003, 07:11 AM

Syria ...is dead.....politically.

Stone dead.

They will go into "accepted dictatory slumber" like Libya.

Bluelight

Falstaff · May 27, 2003, 01:45 PM

Syria will rise again, lots of deep seated anti israeli sentiment there, it is a bastion of terrorists. Hussien may even be there or his cronies now, investing stolen money from IRAQ into new weapons programs, Syria may be dead politcally now in terms of influencing the events in Palestine and Israel, but they lie in wait.
Territorial lines will shift in Israel, and the palestinian independent state may yet exist in a peaceful fashion, but it will usher in new problems, this is a conundrum.

JavaFox · May 27, 2003, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bluelight
The Palsestinians accepted it as it was.

The accepted to play ther game.

Sharon did not.

This statement is anti-semetic, I feel, for it shows that you have double standards. You would never take Israel's word on anything, why would you believe the Palestinians and give them the benefit of the doubt? One of their major responsibilities under the road-map is to reign in the militants.

How can you say they have accepted the road-map when the violence has still not stopped? Simple, because you give Palestine the benefit of the doubt.

El_Coyote · May 27, 2003, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JavaFox
This statement is anti-semetic, I feel, for it shows that you have double standards. You would never take Israel's word on anything, why would you believe the Palestinians and give them the benefit of the doubt? One of their major responsibilities under the road-map is to reign in the militants.

How can you say they have accepted the road-map when the violence has still not stopped? Simple, because you give Palestine the benefit of the doubt.

dont start with this anti-semetic bullshite. you cant ever argue against a jew without being called an anti-semite.. im so tired of it, they use that accusation _EVERY_ time. The fact that you cant disagree with them without being referred to nazi's or similar groups pisses me off.

and you JavaFox, as a mod should be more carefull with your statements... you've been over the line in political debates before...
*post reported as offensive* - a mod should know better...

JavaFox · May 27, 2003, 03:33 PM

Well, I think I explained my case quite clearly, and I meant it as no disrespect or insult. Let me clarify.

I have repeatedly told people in this forum that I though they were anti-American. And the retort is, invariably, "Just because I say something against America doesn't mean I'm anti-American!" I agree with that sentiment. The same sort of thing is said by liberals in America when they critisize American policy. Again, I agree -- simply critisizing the status quo or condemning past action does not make one anti-American.

However, it is my belief that when one is always deeply cynical/critical of the US, or never affords the US the benefit of the doubt, they are, in fact, being anti-American. When someone can never manage to say something nice, always points the finger, never considers that the US might be correct, and applies a double-standard in their complaint, that is anti-American.

So, like I said clearly, I was calling bluelight's comment anti-semetic NOT BECAUSE IT CRITISIZES THE JEWISH POSITION, but merely because it is indicative of an attitude that always faults the Jews and maintains a double-standard vis-a-vis the Palestinians.

To reiterate, I am not simplistic in merely calling all criticisms "anti-Semetic" or "anti-American" and you do me a disservice in saying such. But I do consider arguments that never do anything except critisize the Jewish positions anti-semetic.

El_Coyote · May 27, 2003, 03:45 PM

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=antisemitism

Anti-Semitism \An`ti-Sem"i*tism\, n. Opposition to, or hatred of, Semites, esp. Jews

so his argument is based on hatred of jews. :/

ok

take a bit more care another time. Anti-semitism is a lot more negatively charged than 'anti-american'

and i DO understand why people would be anti-american the ways things are running.

~~bluelight~~ · May 27, 2003, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JavaFox
This statement is anti-semetic, I feel, for it shows that you have double standards. You would never take Israel's word on anything, why would you believe the Palestinians and give them the benefit of the doubt? One of their major responsibilities under the road-map is to reign in the militants.

How can you say they have accepted the road-map when the violence has still not stopped? Simple, because you give Palestine the benefit of the doubt.

Anti semitic???

Excuse me???

Did Sharon accept the Road map in its originl forn or not??

No he did not.

Dod the Palestinians....

Yes they did.

Will that be a problem

Yes it will.

What has this to do with being antisemit?

And ...the last question ...shows that you dont have a clue what the issue is about.

Go do some reading.

The roadmap...is written in first hand by YOUR government as a BEGINNING to a peace process.

Is founding base was meant to be NON DISCUTABLE.....a TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT...foundation from which everything should start.

The palestinians ...accepted this.

Sharon did not.

Sharon wanted (among loads of other things)that it should be written into the document that not one single Palestinian refugee should be allowed to return to the future Palestine.

Bush accepted that they would ...take that into consideration.......ALTHOUGH:::THE BASIC ROADMAP WAS INDISPUTABLE!

So now go verify what i say and never call me an antisemit again or ill start yelling names to.

Bluelight

JavaFox · May 27, 2003, 05:32 PM

In this context, anti-semite was used not in the Nazi sense that we are all familiar with, but in the sense that his opposition to the Jewish position in unobjective, unfaltering, and one-sided.

~~bluelight~~ · May 27, 2003, 05:38 PM

Well one is anti semit or one is not.Your statement is bollocks and nothing else and i suggest you edit it out.

There is nothing whatsoever in my post that indicates that i am an antisemit.

This is the last reply i will give on this moronic subject.

Bluelight

JavaFox · May 27, 2003, 05:39 PM

I didn't call anyone an anti-semite. I called your statement anti-semetic, and I clearly demonstrated why I thought so.

~~bluelight~~ · May 27, 2003, 08:48 PM

So then it is ok for me to claim that your ......statement is....nazilike...and nobody is gonna edit that out.

Good.

Just so we are clear about the logic .

Naaah forget it.......

Bluelight

El_Coyote · Jun 1, 2003, 01:11 PM

calling a statement a person makes anti-semitic or calleing the person anti-semitic, is the exact same thing in my book.

JavaFox · Jun 1, 2003, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bluelight
So then it is ok for me to claim that your ......statement is....nazilike...and nobody is gonna edit that out.

Good.

Just so we are clear about the logic .

Read and comprehend my post first, then you might see what I said.

~~bluelight~~ · Jun 1, 2003, 06:42 PM

Well i have dropped this topic already.

Bluelight

raid517 · Jun 1, 2003, 10:16 PM

Lol JF... same old crap as ever. If I were you I'd learn to keep at least some of your more trite opinions to yourself. I totally disagree with the current policies of Sharon. However I totally agreed with the views of Yitsak Rabin, who promised to be one of the greatest Israel leaders of all time (indeed he was their JFK), until (as is generally the case, like many great reformers throughout history) he was murdered by conservatives resentful of change and of any idea of peace.

I would very much appreciate if you would read this and tell me just exactly where you find fault with it. No doubt however you will. Nonetheless where it leaves your crass accusations of anti-semitism is little short of a mystery, at least to anyone claming to retain even a basic grasp on sanity. Just because a person subscribes to one view and not another does not make them against an entire race of people - just as is the case with the current American administration. While I disagree wholeheartedly with a large number of their policies, I hardly think that qualifies me as hating all Americans. Again it is clear that such an assertion is just patently absurd.

Anyway blue, just thought I would stop by and see what you and the rest of the crew were up to. As the saying goes, 'don't let the b*stards grind you down...'

Take care.

Good luck.

Q

Falstaff · Jun 1, 2003, 11:07 PM

there time had come but their legacy lives on, I often wonder what ephiphony drives men to change their lives 180 degrees and start working for peace....

Falstaff · Jun 1, 2003, 11:13 PM

Anyone familiar with Micheal Drosnin's books THE BIBLE CODE & BIBLE CODE II, you can get the software that is a cryptographic marvel check it out here...very interesting stuff

raid517 · Jun 1, 2003, 11:24 PM

Lol Jeff. I can't quite go with you there on that one mate.

I don't think there's any mystery to the fact that there's an awful lot of nasty people in this world. Shit happens. That's just the way it is...

Q

Falstaff · Jun 1, 2003, 11:27 PM

whether your standing in front of a fan or not.....lol

AND ONE MORE THING MAN............glad to see you back RAID517....

May 24, 2003, 11:54 AM	#1
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	The roadmap...was a bluff. Ok it was as i thought ..a bluff . Usa has accepted to change tghe contents of the roadmap to suit the Israelis. The idea of the roadmap was...thjat i should be un negotiable for both parties. The Palestinians accepted the roadmap as it is. Israel did not. The major point the Israelis have is that the Palestinian refugees are NOT to be allowed to return (while they of course themselves can have an unlimited immigration ). Usa has now said that they will listen to and have in mind...Israels demand for changes. That means the roadmap plan...is dead. Personally i think it is intentional because makeing these exceptions to the Israelis is so unbelievably stupid and ignorant that it must be intentional. Bluelight

May 27, 2003, 05:28 AM	#5
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Many Israeli's are skeptical If the palestinians accept this, it would be a major hurdle accomplished without further bloodshed, but I cannot help but think this is a false peace...calm before the storm...I am worried about what Syria wil do now. Perhaps gain support from Russia and rebuild it's armies with soviet support. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

May 27, 2003, 01:45 PM	#8
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	No Syria will rise again, lots of deep seated anti israeli sentiment there, it is a bastion of terrorists. Hussien may even be there or his cronies now, investing stolen money from IRAQ into new weapons programs, Syria may be dead politcally now in terms of influencing the events in Palestine and Israel, but they lie in wait. Territorial lines will shift in Israel, and the palestinian independent state may yet exist in a peaceful fashion, but it will usher in new problems, this is a conundrum. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

May 27, 2003, 03:45 PM	#12
El_Coyote DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 111 Rep Power: 0	http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=antisemitism Anti-Semitism \An`ti-Sem"itism\, n. Opposition to, or hatred of, Semites, esp. Jews so his argument is based on hatred of jews. :/ ok take a bit more care another time. Anti-semitism is a lot more negatively charged than 'anti-american' and i DO understand why people would be anti-american the ways things are running. __________________ Warp2Search.net Newsie Last edited by El_Coyote; May 27, 2003 at 04:59 PM.*

May 27, 2003, 08:48 PM	Thread Starter #17
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	So then it is ok for me to claim that your ......statement is....nazilike...and nobody is gonna edit that out. Good. Just so we are clear about the logic . Naaah forget it....... Bluelight Last edited by bluelight; May 27, 2003 at 09:04 PM.

May 24, 2003, 11:56 AM	#2
Dom DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 12,940 Rep Power: 0	Where'd you hear this?

May 24, 2003, 02:28 PM	Thread Starter #3
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	I read it today so it must have been decided yesterday.ALso hear that plans are that Bush is going to Jerusalem to meet both parties in some time.... Perfect for re elections...only..it wont work.If they think that they can alllow Israels apartheid "homeland plans" for the Palestinians and that this will create peace then they are mistaken seriously... And of course they know this. Its just theater. Jusy like after the last gulf war.' Bluelight

May 27, 2003, 04:56 AM	#4
JavaFox E Pluribus Unum Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,203 Rep Power: 0	I think its safe to say that your anti-US posts, bluelight, all need to be taken with a grain of salt. -- JERUSALEM [MENL] -- Israel has accepted the U.S.-sponsored roadmap for the establishment of a Palestinian state by the end of 2003. The Cabinet of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon voted to approve the roadmap on Sunday. Ministers acknowledged that the 12-7 vote came despite the U.S. refusal to include any of Israel's reservations in the peace plan. A key revision proposed by Israel was for the Palestinians to drop their demand for the return of refugees to Israel. (Middle East Newsline)

May 27, 2003, 07:11 AM	Thread Starter #7
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Syria ...is dead.....politically. Stone dead. They will go into "accepted dictatory slumber" like Libya. Bluelight

May 27, 2003, 03:33 PM	#11
JavaFox E Pluribus Unum Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,203 Rep Power: 0	Well, I think I explained my case quite clearly, and I meant it as no disrespect or insult. Let me clarify. I have repeatedly told people in this forum that I though they were anti-American. And the retort is, invariably, "Just because I say something against America doesn't mean I'm anti-American!" I agree with that sentiment. The same sort of thing is said by liberals in America when they critisize American policy. Again, I agree -- simply critisizing the status quo or condemning past action does not make one anti-American. However, it is my belief that when one is always deeply cynical/critical of the US, or never affords the US the benefit of the doubt, they are, in fact, being anti-American. When someone can never manage to say something nice, always points the finger, never considers that the US might be correct, and applies a double-standard in their complaint, that is anti-American. So, like I said clearly, I was calling bluelight's comment anti-semetic NOT BECAUSE IT CRITISIZES THE JEWISH POSITION, but merely because it is indicative of an attitude that always faults the Jews and maintains a double-standard vis-a-vis the Palestinians. To reiterate, I am not simplistic in merely calling all criticisms "anti-Semetic" or "anti-American" and you do me a disservice in saying such. But I do consider arguments that never do anything except critisize the Jewish positions anti-semetic.

May 27, 2003, 05:32 PM	#14
JavaFox E Pluribus Unum Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,203 Rep Power: 0	In this context, anti-semite was used not in the Nazi sense that we are all familiar with, but in the sense that his opposition to the Jewish position in unobjective, unfaltering, and one-sided.

May 27, 2003, 05:38 PM	Thread Starter #15
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Well one is anti semit or one is not.Your statement is bollocks and nothing else and i suggest you edit it out. There is nothing whatsoever in my post that indicates that i am an antisemit. This is the last reply i will give on this moronic subject. Bluelight

May 27, 2003, 05:39 PM	#16
JavaFox E Pluribus Unum Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,203 Rep Power: 0	I didn't call anyone an anti-semite. I called your statement anti-semetic, and I clearly demonstrated why I thought so.

Jun 1, 2003, 01:11 PM	#18
El_Coyote DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 111 Rep Power: 0	calling a statement a person makes anti-semitic or calleing the person anti-semitic, is the exact same thing in my book. __________________ Warp2Search.net Newsie

Jun 1, 2003, 06:42 PM	Thread Starter #20
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Well i have dropped this topic already. Bluelight

Jun 1, 2003, 10:16 PM	#21
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Lol JF... same old crap as ever. If I were you I'd learn to keep at least some of your more trite opinions to yourself. I totally disagree with the current policies of Sharon. However I totally agreed with the views of Yitsak Rabin, who promised to be one of the greatest Israel leaders of all time (indeed he was their JFK), until (as is generally the case, like many great reformers throughout history) he was murdered by conservatives resentful of change and of any idea of peace. I would very much appreciate if you would read this and tell me just exactly where you find fault with it. No doubt however you will. Nonetheless where it leaves your crass accusations of anti-semitism is little short of a mystery, at least to anyone claming to retain even a basic grasp on sanity. Just because a person subscribes to one view and not another does not make them against an entire race of people - just as is the case with the current American administration. While I disagree wholeheartedly with a large number of their policies, I hardly think that qualifies me as hating all Americans. Again it is clear that such an assertion is just patently absurd. Anyway blue, just thought I would stop by and see what you and the rest of the crew were up to. As the saying goes, 'don't let the bstards grind you down...' Take care. Good luck. Q Last edited by raid517; Jun 3, 2003 at 04:12 PM.*

Jun 1, 2003, 11:07 PM	#22
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Sadat and Rabin there time had come but their legacy lives on, I often wonder what ephiphony drives men to change their lives 180 degrees and start working for peace.... __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jun 1, 2003, 11:13 PM	#23
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Bible code? Anyone familiar with Micheal Drosnin's books THE BIBLE CODE & BIBLE CODE II, you can get the software that is a cryptographic marvel check it out here...very interesting stuff __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jun 1, 2003, 11:24 PM	#24
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Lol Jeff. I can't quite go with you there on that one mate. I don't think there's any mystery to the fact that there's an awful lot of nasty people in this world. Shit happens. That's just the way it is... Q

Jun 1, 2003, 11:27 PM	#25
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	I guess the difference is whether your standing in front of a fan or not.....lol AND ONE MORE THING MAN............glad to see you back RAID517.... __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."