JavaFox

Many have, no doubt, heard of genetically-modified (GM) foods which we embrace, more or less, in America. We have produced crops that are resistant to pesticides, diseases, and insects and there is no compelling evidence to show that there are any ill effects from their consumption.

The European Union has refused to approve any GM foods for import since 1998. Europe has thumbed its nose at the WTO's rules and America by illegally banning these products.

WTO rules state that, of course, countries have the right to regulate what is brought into their borders. But it stipulates that bans on products must be based on "scientific evidence" without "undue delay." Given that there is no conclusive evidence showing that GM products are detrimental to human health, and that the EU has refused to accept any GM products in 5 years -- it is safe to say that the EU is in violation of the WTO's guidelines.

What happened to the respect of international conventions and rules, I wonder? I guess international organizations and agreements are only respected when profit can be reaped.

bluelight

Yeah ..and you haven`t implied tarifs that goes against free trade rules( that you yourself have fought for for ages).. .....on steel to protect your steel industry..................
No of course not.

Have a word with Bush about that first...then...be back later on this issue .

Meaning..clean up yopur owbn backyeard first....especially if you are gonna cry tears over an issue as manipulatyed foods.

We dont care about your manipulated foods and you.....are NOT gonna force it upon us.

That...is called freedom of choice.

Thank you.


Bluelight

bluelight

And i suspect that the "What happened to I´nternational rules" is in reply to the Guantanamo...topic...well i suggest you stay at that topic if you want to discuss that and explain in which way you are following internatinal agreements by keeping prisoners in chicken cages.




Bluelight

bluelight

So...steel embargo...Im waiting....


Bluelight

JavaFox

Kind of ridiculous that you wanted a reply within eight minutes. I am not at my computer every minute I am awake, bluelight. I do other stuff, too.

I figured you would just ignore the issue I've raised and point to some American mistake instead. Simply pointing to other bad behavior does not excuse your bad behavior. That's not a valid argument. So, in this thread, stick to the issue at hand.

At any rate, I don't know why you bring up steel tarrifs. You know exactly what my stance on those are, as I have written that I think government subsidies and tarrifs are dangerous. So I, and many other conservatives, disagree with the imposition of steel tariffs. Happy?

Anyway, you really don't have a point. There is no American STEEL embargo. When we import foreign steel we DO tax it, but it can still come in. That's not an embargo, in case you didn't know. But what the EU has levied on the US IS. The EU has refused to let GM crops in for over 5 years. I'm not talking about taxation -- I'm talking about a ban. THAT is an embargo.

At any rate, the rules I was referring to only deal with regulation of trade based on health and environmental concerns.

So if Europe puts such a heavy value on the UN and other such international organizations, why is it violating the WTO rules?

bluelight

Well my standpoint on the issue is:

Refuse the import of GM crop until the producers ....proove....that they are harmless.

That should keept hem busy for a while.
The burden of prooving something...is not on us.

It is on the producers.

Technically it might be on "us".

In that case..the rules are wrong.


In all medical research the it is up to medical companys to delier a harmless or a product that is labled with all its potential dangers.

It is then up to the client if he buys or not.

The same thing shall of course apply to Monsantos and their corn.....etc etc etc..


Again.....a question of ...Moral



Nobody forces us to eat or use crop we dont approve of.

Nobody.



Bluelight

JavaFox

So your standpoint is that Europe should be allowed to ignore the rules of the WTO whenever they please.

I am surprised that a socialist like you would trust a medical company to test their own products! What liberated capitalist nation do you live in? In America, we have (for better or for worse) the FDA (a government agency) that tests our medicines.

Nobody is forcing you to eat anything, my good and honorable friend. We just wanna sell them. Why doesn't the EU simply stamp "GM Crop" on all GM products and let the consumer decide, instead of imposing an illegal embargo on their biggest friend in the world.

Al_Vampyre

Consumer choice is all very well but I'm afraid to say that sometimes the consumer needs protected from themselves. Imagine a scenario where a single mother struggling to bring up her family on a limited budget discovers that she can afford more food if she buys the GM stuff rather than the non-GM stuff. Fantastic! Suddenly she can afford to feed her family and in 10 years time when someone finally works out that messing with genes causes some nasty side-effects?? Still fantastic??

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JavaFox

We will continue to study GM. No business/farm/industry has any interest in killing off their customers.

At any rate, I find it unlikely that US-grown GM products would be cheap if exported to Europe anyway. The farming industry is one of the best protected in America, I'm sure Europe would do the same for their farms by slapping high tarrifs on American-grown products. That is, if they ever become interested in our invincible Round-Up resistant soy beans.

Falstaff

they haven't had any ef.ef.ef.ef.ef.ef.ect on me......lol...smoking that tobacco and cannibus crap is a hell of alot more dangerous, almost as bad as using a cell phone while you drive an SUV, but that is another matter...ha ha

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The_Neon_Cowboy

You have a wierd sence of freedom...you say "freedom of choice" yet the decision has be made for you by someone else... if you wanted it you couldnt get it..

manipulated foods have the possablities of cureing world hunger ... dont nockem ... though my self tend to stear clear my parent like them... and i used to grow them... they grow faster /better/stronger plants/more/better fruit/resisance to drought and disease. means more succesfull crops.


lets just say their temp. forceing evolution hand and the alteration are not presnt in the sendgeneration... meaning you grow alterd plant.. its seed from it fruit will grow original unalterd plant..

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The_Neon_Cowboy

what embargo? steel is worth crap... mabe 2 cents a pound clean.. due to the masses of cheap steel that the chinese flooded the markets with.. I know nothing of a terrif

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The_Neon_Cowboy

so you guy dot sell any vitimans over there right? right?

becouse the long term effocts of vitamans on the human body is still not know so you guys must not use those eather? -nope i know better. its the same deal it just someone made the chice for you, isn't that nice wouldn't you at least like the choice to eat GM food or not.

GM foods are much better than nomal foods in most ways ... only draw back is messing with nature.. but thats done every were one way or anther like cloneing etc...

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The_Neon_Cowboy

um theres alot of GM food that have been out for more than 7-8+ years hybrids etc... that has not coused any harm to date... how long you guy talking? 30 years? come on?

I know some of you food is GM/hybrid one way or another unless you contol were your farmers get thier seeds. theres so many fruits and vegtable varitys thats been alterd you guys are really missing out ...

LMAO ... there a 95% chance you have eaten a GM or hybrid food sometime in you life weather you know it or not...

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Al_Vampyre

Actually I'm not against GM foods personally, I was just playing devil's advocate, as far as food import policy goes the EU has a history of protecting its niche markets. Eg Asda - part of the Walmart group - have recently lost their case to continue calling their Parma Ham exactly what it is because its not actually packaged in Parma, Italy. Now to my mind its still Parma Ham wherever its put into little plastic packets. There have been similar cases involving Cheddar Cheese and a number of other products.

Anyway the point I'm making is that if the EU is going to be so protectionist with its own countries then the chances of it allowing the mass import of food of any sort from outside the EU is unlikely unless absolutely necessary.

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UberLord

I found the below on a few web sites.

"Maryland has banned GM fish.
There are various bills calling for moratoria on GM food (Vermont), and bans on GM wheat (North Dakota and Montana) have been filed within the last year.
Several municipalities have declared moratoria on GM food (Burlington, Vermont), bans of GM crops (City of Boulder, Colorado), or urged the federal government to ban GM food (City and County of San Fransisco, California)."

But of course, I forgot that they are part of America, so WTO rules don't apply to individual states.



Better make sure your own house is in order before criticising others Java.

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Falstaff

what are the specifc dangers of GM foods?

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JavaFox

You already found the answer to your "question." Our individual states are not bound by WTO rules in interstate affairs. Pretty interesting that your own post on the matter is a diversionary post that points the finger rather than explains. Pointing to someone else's bad behavior does not excuse your own.

I don't even disagree with banning GM foods; that's your prerogative. But if you are going to pretend to LIKE the UN, the ICC, and various other international organizations and badmouth us for not participating as much as you'd like, then at least follow the WTO's rules. To do otherwise would be hypocritical.

Falstaff

is the strange companion of politics isn't it..Like a shadow it follows....just as pessimism follows optimism...

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UberLord

I suppose thats a fair argument. However, you are mistaken in your assumption that I like the WTO - I don't. As for America following WTO rules it's not like they don't break then rules either.

I for one have no liking for GM food. Infact, I even prefer to buy "organic" food - ie no artificial fertiliser, pesticide, etc used in making/growing it. I certainly hope the country where I live bans GM food for as long as I live there so my food source remains un-polluted.

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UberLord

It's also human nature to justify what you believe in and ignore the bad side.
For example, when buying a new computer you talk up the graphics card, cpu and memory but neglect to mention the crappy monitor and slow hard disk. When questioned you mention that it was a "bargin buy" or some such to deflect the attention.

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Falstaff

or blame it on moores law, you know..built in obsolecence after 18 months...ha ha... I can't seem to find anything substantial linking GM foods with real health problems except the potentiol allergic response that can happen to anyone..I understood that GM foods were supposed to resist diseases and improve production, Where is the downside to importing and resale?

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FuNsTeR

pot kettle and black springs to mind about that comment Java , what about the USA going against the Majority of the Un and attacking and invading a sovreign nation due to dubious/lies about their so called weapons of mass destruction ah buts thats ok isn't because its the good ole usa we can do what we want bull ... america has broken more world laws than all the european nations put together ... typical american crass .... ie we can do as we please but others can't ... if this is the so called moral ethics of the USA , if so you can stick them where the sun doesn't shine , now go prop up your favourite dictators as your country has supported several of the nastiest customers on the face of this earth

forgot to add USA had banned several /put ludicrous tarrifs on products because we won't buy conchitta (or whatever you call them) bananas as we like to support former colonies by purchasing their superior products namely Fyffe oh forgot to mention Steriods in beef another low in US farming ... keep your GM foods and your steriod infested meat

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UberLord

There's no hard evidence that proves or disproves any harmful effects of GM products.
However, with any GM stuff it's better to be very very safe and paranoid as it may have many hidden harmful effects that we wont see for many years, or even decades or centuries. And once it's in the environment, it's in and cannot easily be taken out - some may say impossible as it penetrates the deep soil and surrounding country side.

Even importing GM food products could have problems.
Bad example, but it's theoretically possible to import a GM banana and then start a plantation from that banana.

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JavaFox

God, you guys are missing the point! Do you honestly think that I care all that much about the WTO? Do you think I honestly object to Europe's ban of GM products? No! If you think it's in your best interest and health to not buy GM goods at all, that is your right. It is the fundamentally human right or self-protection. I think there is a need for some code of conduct though -- so I do hope there is some research being done, rather than a blind ban.

The point of this whole thread was to illustrate that, yes, striving for international cooperation is a fine goal, but when your security/health is threatened, international organizations need to be cast aside. This is pretty much the sentiment that has been shared by the Europeans that have posted in this thread so far. "GM foods might be dangerous, it is our right to ban them."

Of course it's your right. But look at Funster's post, which basically says "It's okay for us to disobey the WTO and act in our interest, but it's not okay for the US to shun the UN to act in our interests."

So I get it. Looking out for your own country at the expense of international cooperation is OKAY for nations in Europe, but BAD for the US.

Falstaff

Everyone has the right to act in their own best interets. But tobacco and alcohol, clearly destroys human tissue, causes short term and long term problems and approached as being morally reprehensible in excess....yet everyone profits from it...except the victems..So what is the big deal about GM foods? I know my question seems sophmoric, Is it because it's too general in nature, or does anyone really understand the depth of the problem with the consumption and sale of GM foods...Even National Geographic devoted articles to the up side not the down side...I think GM foods must be some kind of economic threat.

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Falstaff

My question might be based on my own naitivity or ignorance, but I do wonder what are the forces involved? Are they merely economic? Are they social? Are they political? Are the cultural?
I think to understand globalization we must take a very broad view of culture. Human beings are complex social creatures, we do not exist without community and community functions under principles and accepted standards of reality. In other words, humanity is culture bound -- we can't exist outside of culture nor can we ever really have an objective view of culture because it is apart of us and our perception of reality is in large part a function of our culture.

Globalization is really the fusion of culture. I beleive it is happening largely because of how inexpensive intercontinental travel has become. The internet and telecommunications has also had a major impact. these are huge forces that are dramatically effecting every culture on the earth.
The cultures that exists in isolation like aboriginies in Pau Pau New Guinea are no longer pure. There are no cultures on the face of the earth uneffected by "Globalization" in this sense.

Before we get all upset about it. We need to understand that culture is dynamic, even in the most primitive societies, it is always changing. Every generation adapts to the old ways but also adapts to new forces from outside -- whether they are physical changes like contagius diseases, climate, earthquakes, etc. or whether they are political, wars from invaders etc. New ideas and adaptations are created because necessity is indeed the mother of invention.

Culture is living, breathing, organic a kind of corporate being, a complex mix of societies and all its norms, rules, expectations, spoken and unspoken, known and subconcious. We are aware of this when we experience culture shock in an alien land. We realize that our perception of reality is threatened once we leave the security of our own native culture.

Globalization, from what I can see is a kind of world wide culture shock. People don't have to leave home to expereience it though -- the world is at our doorstep. White middle class Americans are finding their malls full of people from all over the world, enjoying our lush lucrative markets.

People who never wanted it are passing Mcdonald signs on their way to work on every continent.
People are finding things sacred to them -- Friday holy day or Saturday holy day -- or Sunday holy day maringalized by a greater society that never slows down, takes no thought of these ancient traditions.

Is it all about money? I think not. Is it all about politics? Politics mostly follows the money and there is more to it then money.

The bottom line is many of our children will likely marry people from other cultures or people who have been deeply affected by another culture (bi-cultural people). They will bring strange notions and ideas into our families and upset the balance and force all of us to make adjustments that are not comfortable.

This is deeply personal stuff. Deeply complex issues.

I believe we cannot afford to simply aruge about whether we should "have it" or not. It is upon us, unstoppable. Even China is excepting these facts and embracing the English language. Perhaps what we ought to do is discuss how we are going to manage the chaos of clashing culture in our own neigborhoods. What of our own cultures need to be preserved at all costs? What can we despense with? How far do we need to go to accomodate other culture influences? How will we govern ourselves with the dilution of national boarders? How will we hold governments and international corporations accountable in this free for all environment mass transit and instant communication has ushered onto our planet? In short what are the real issues of globalization and how are we going to deal with them?

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UberLord

Thats not what we/I've been saying at all Java! You're generalising our stances across multiple international bodies.

I support the UN the the role that the UN plays in trying to maintain the status-quo, keeping the peace and establishing human rights. This is a very important organisation who's sole (public and apparent) aim is to make the world a better place to live.

I do not support the WTO at all. They appear to support global monopolies and their main interests appear to be making rich corps richer at the expense of small corps and/or poorer countries.

This is not about the US or Europe - but you appear to have read that into all posts about the topic.

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FuNsTeR

my point was Java is you believe its not right for Europe to shuna world board but its ok for the USA to shun the most important WB ie The UN not forgetting putting sanctions on EU goods for nearly a decade , we have every right to protect our health

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