FuNsTeR

.... even America .... with your banks now nationalised with your car industry heading for the same route to survive .... seems to me America is now going down the road of socialism to protect/save their industry from collapse ... and yes the same is happening to European institutions as well but we are not hung up with nationalising industry as most of our industrial infrastructure was under goverment control right up to the mid to late 1980s .... just goes to show that outright capitalism was the wrong route to go down

__________________
"They say when you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear satanic messages ..... but that's nothing, if you play it forward it will install Windows"

Falstaff

socialism is as flawed as capitalism, and I will take the free market system over pure socialism any day. self determination is what matters.

__________________

FuNsTeR

yeah tell that to the large percentage of folks in your country that can't afford health care or poor public infrastructure ie roads and power utilities springs to mind .... you just don't seem to want to pay for anything

__________________
"They say when you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear satanic messages ..... but that's nothing, if you play it forward it will install Windows"

CDsDontBurn

it sure seems like it. but we will see where all this takes us and what it does to the worlds' free market economies

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dawgXdenta

Watch Zeitgeist! That will be your answer. Or mine, or whatever. That movie is an eye opener. U'll see that capitalism is just a drop in the ocean of our tribulation.

__________________
Today's world is of public opinion and the fates of nations are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be done. --- Osama bin Laden when relating how global media has the minds of the masses.
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http://dawgxdenta.deviantart.com/gallery/

dawgXdenta

Free market? You mean walmart close down all local shops in my city so that whoever owns walmart can get richer. That my friend is free market and its killing the 3rd world.

As i said watch Zeitgeist

__________________
Today's world is of public opinion and the fates of nations are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be done. --- Osama bin Laden when relating how global media has the minds of the masses.
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http://dawgxdenta.deviantart.com/gallery/

dawgXdenta

In the end Falstaff they are all sub-denominations and isms of a system NOT BASED ON HARD WORK but greed my man.

__________________
Today's world is of public opinion and the fates of nations are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be done. --- Osama bin Laden when relating how global media has the minds of the masses.
______________________________________
http://dawgxdenta.deviantart.com/gallery/

BlueMak

Capitalism hasn't failed. It is just that many people (who are behind major companies) are simply bad at their job and used the system first to go in debt and remain in business, and now they are using this so called "collapse" and support of governments (due to fear of people losing their jobs) to either fire people or "demand" money to stay in business. When in fact these people should go to jail or at least something done to them for bad business practices and incompetence if not criminal activity with company's money.
But, they are lucky, any asshole now can claim the global "situation" as an excuse to do get a Get Out Of Jail pass and save his own ass and most people will say that it isn't their fault, it is this crisis' fault.
Quite clever actualy. Pity for all the people getting screwed by this.


Plus it is everyone's fault (me and you type of people) who keep buying with credit and no money.
To anyone claiming this is the end of the world or at least capitalism, I say, relax Fukuyama.


But as always, I am sure communists and socialists, plus fascists are smiling all over the loss of jobs and fear among the people. Society in distress is good business for them.

__________________

The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

Neshi

exactly bluemak. Capitalism hasn't failed, but bad business practice has caused this.
Giving loans to people of who you know can't pay you back.
People with creditcards buying and buying, even though they know they haven't got the money.
People that live the same life as they did when they had a job, just so nobody around them thinks they are jobless...

That isn't capitalism, that's just plain stupid.
You know that sooner or later there will be consequences for that kind of behavior.

It would be fun if we fall back to trading with goods instead of money..

__________________
If one does not attach himself to people and desire, never shall his heart be broken. But then, does he ever truly live?

Life is just too damn short for if's and maybe's

dawgXdenta

Do urself a flavour and a favour watch zeitgeist my friend I can never say it enough. I can even torrent it 4 ya if u want

__________________
Today's world is of public opinion and the fates of nations are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be done. --- Osama bin Laden when relating how global media has the minds of the masses.
______________________________________
http://dawgxdenta.deviantart.com/gallery/

Neshi

what kind of flavor would that be? strawberry or chocolate?

no, all kidding aside. That movie says nothing about the failure of capitalism.
It might be right that it gives an opinion about what went wrong in America, but not capitalism.
It's the same as with communism, the system doesn't fail, it's the people who use it (or abuse it).

__________________
If one does not attach himself to people and desire, never shall his heart be broken. But then, does he ever truly live?

Life is just too damn short for if's and maybe's

FuNsTeR

i don't have a credit card anymore ... my credit crunch was around this time last year i cleared my debt and cut my cloth accordingly to pay my debt, now i buy what i can afford to pay .... and i live well with one major bill less per month

never said it was the end of the world .... the guys at the top have made a right cvnt of things and want us the tax payers to bail them out .... when i first got my mortgage for my flat it was like being interegated by the gestapo what banks and building societies did after 2000 was utterly reckless ie giving mortgages to folk that clearly could not afford to pay heir mortgage and as for gloating about people losing their jobs .... please point out where i was gloating

__________________
"They say when you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear satanic messages ..... but that's nothing, if you play it forward it will install Windows"

BlueMak

Funster, I wasn't talking about you so I am not going to try to find where/if you were gloating.
"You" are not the first or the last "praying" about the end/collapse of the current system. Capitalism, even in its corrupt version, remains the best realistic system. It can't fail till the nature of humans change, ie not for thousands of years, if then.

__________________

The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

BlueMak

Thank you but I have my own views on the world and I don't require any film to "show me the truth", especialy in an avant garde way closer to fantasy than anything else. It's really easy, pick 5 lies, insert 2 truths, you now have 7 truths.

Don't believe everything you hear just because it goes against the system or the known theories. A revolutionary some times is just a thug.

__________________

The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

FuNsTeR

no probs mate ..... trust me on this BlueMak i have never prayed for anything in life ... praying goes against everything i believe in

now i am not a out and out socialist ... i am actually a Scottish nationalist ..... anyhoo i believe the free market does have it's place but it has to be regulated to stop it going overboard and it has to go hand in hand with with nationalised sector.

but believe it or not the beef of my post was about the percieved belief in America that nationalised industry is anti american was funny now that peoples livlihoods were at stake that the US goverment has decided to go down this root after decades of american goverments preaching to us about the evils of socialism

__________________
"They say when you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear satanic messages ..... but that's nothing, if you play it forward it will install Windows"

Falstaff

enough of this rubbish
capitalism is why each of you has the power to command a device that allows you to publish your thoughts for the whole bloody world to entertain or ignore.
if anyone stands for anything important, it should be for self determination and achievement, not Aravice.
The seven sins do not rule us nor control us, but they are bane of our existence perhaps.
Perhaps it is oppurtunity to make profite, to fill the coffers of the rich and poor.
Perhaps it is just what we do, whether in love or in fear of change we embrace the taskmaster of the future and the past.
We adapt to change.
there is no coin to collect for the value of the future.
no monetary system that can predict or invest in what is our future.
Only faith that we can endure change, and we do.
Its about change.
Socialsm, even pure socialism stifles change.
Change, regardless of what, how and where we chooose regard it, is nothing more than that.
We must embrace change.
it is the magic spell cast on our future.
that no mater what we must bear, good or bad
we must adapt to change.

Cheers.

__________________

dawgXdenta

I like what you just said. "show me the truth" No one can show you the truth you can only pick your own version, thats what I believe anyway. The reason I wanted you to watch the movie was to introduce you to other concepts and realities, that's all. I'm one person who doesnt at all believe in converting someone to your views or religion or whatever. I personally hate that.

I believe someone must find his own way in an infinite world of knowledge. The only challenge for us all is to be openminded enough to accept more to enable us to know more.

Its a great challenge for me let me tell ya, but I try

__________________
Today's world is of public opinion and the fates of nations are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be done. --- Osama bin Laden when relating how global media has the minds of the masses.
______________________________________
http://dawgxdenta.deviantart.com/gallery/

dawgXdenta

Well said, Darwin baby ,Darwin

__________________
Today's world is of public opinion and the fates of nations are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be done. --- Osama bin Laden when relating how global media has the minds of the masses.
______________________________________
http://dawgxdenta.deviantart.com/gallery/

Tinkerhell

That's pretty damn much right...

Please. Capitalism with absolute MINIMUM government interference is the BEST thing going. The problem that we are now facing is that we haven't been working under that sort of system. The Guv has been buggering the system for a few decades.

Banks weren't trying to make a quick & ugly buck off lending money to idiots that couldn't pay it back. Banks were A) doing what the government was forcing them to do under laws set up during the Carter & Clinton administration because those kinds of idiots think everyone deserves to "own" a home. Bullshit. There is a reason that owning a home was once considered the American Dream. It was a dream because you had to work hard to EARN it. Because not everyone would work that hard & achieve that goal. B) doing what they had to do to complete & work with Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac - yet another corruption of the government.

Wanna talk health care? Yeah our system is sooo horrible. That's why Canadians & UK folks like to come over here when they need something done... Our system isn't perfect. I'll be the first to admit that. But it's a hell of a lot better than any existing socialized medicine plan anywhere else in the world.

Our auto makers suck? Yeah, well I tell you what, let me load about 100lbs of weight on your shoulders and have you run a 5k race. Your pay will be based on your time across the finish line. Oh, btw, everyone else in the race doesn't have to carry that extra weight. That is what the US government (and the auto makers themselves) have done. The big 3 are the ones with the weights of course. Automakers let the unions become far too powerful and agreed to terms & conditions that were deadly to the well being of the corporation itself. When you have to pay employees twice as much as your competitors for no reason, your company will fail. Actually I think the automakers, as a whole, are pretty impressive that they have managed to stay alive as long as they have. Now. I hope they go under. They will return & hopefully without the burdens of the unions. They perhaps they will be able to succeed in a global market.

Jeff is right about people having the ability to chose their own way and to have the freedom to go that way. That's part of the problem. I think the larger part (certainly here in America) is that people fail before they even get to that part. Waayyyy too many people now want to be handed things instead of working for them. Give me my health insurance, I deserve it. Pay me 4 times as much as I'm worth because if you don't all your workers are going to walk out on you. Give me a house that I can't afford because I want it. givemegivemegiveme. Eventually this shit will stop. I just hope it does while I'm still alive. I have my doubts.

Oh and your movie. Whatever. I'd have to take the tinfoil off my head to watch it and the alien brain waves will get to me then.

Here's one for you. Go read Atlas Shrugged. That might do you folks some good.

__________________
Stupidity should be painful if not terminal.
Darwin for Sainthood!!

BlueMak

Wait, the US automakers fail because of the...unions? What about all the shit cars they release each year and how japanese and european and korean makers sell more economical, green etc cars than the "monsters" made in the USA? I am not saying the unions haven't hurt, but to put the blame on them is a bit silly.

__________________

The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

BlueMak

If you are lazy, watch the movie, great movie too.

__________________

The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

Tinkerhell

hard to say that the company which for something like the last 3 decades has been the largest producer of autos just makes shit cars. Someone certainly likes em...

http://oica.net/wp-content/uploads/2...anking2002.pdf

But for the record - No. I'm not saying it is ALL the unions fault. Poor leadership and the fact that the mangement has caved in to the unions for so long certainly ranks right on up there.
What I am mostly pointing out is that the unions are a prime example of how everyone wants something for themselves despite what it might mean to the group overall. Unions want more more more for the employees. The employees are too stupid to argue with that. It's like a vampire; they want to bleed the host dry. Instead of taking a sip - enough to live on & be happy about - they want to suck the source for every last drop. Never looking at the fact that if they kill the host they will die themselves. That's exactly what happened yesterday. The Senate said "cut wages to match your comepetitors now" and we will help you out. Unions said no, despite the fact that those workers are making an average of $73.21 an hour compared to $44.20 an hour for Toyota, Nissan & Honda (shit I'm a computer programmer and I don't make but a little over $30 an hour). Senate said screw off you get nothing. See how ya like that. I say good for the Senate.

'Nother example that points out what I mean & implicates the management as well. Look at the CEO's. Their companies are going belly up, they are begging for help & they blow like $20k EACH to fly to DC. One of the CEO's perks included taking the private jet home from detroit to Washington State every weekend to be with his family. Each trip was $32k.

I'm all for free market and paying whatever to whoever but not when the company is about to be worm food. The CEO's should be the first ones to start cutting back where they can to fend off a bad outcome.

Let the big three go under, another manufacturer will come in buy out the facilities, rehire all those same folks but for a more competitive salary, without all the crazy pension benifits and stupid working rules and the market will stabalize. My only regret is that the core of the world automakers will die. Oh well. See my tagline.

__________________
Stupidity should be painful if not terminal.
Darwin for Sainthood!!

Judas

just a fyi for those throwing zeitgiest at everyone...


the movie isn't purely to set the record straight, it meerly presents evidence and more information that has been kept under wraps as well as some solutions or possibilities are raised. It isn't Truth, it's about truth, and about looking for truth without being hindered by other typically unacceptable social norms.


No brilliant system should fail. They likely all will, not because of the orginal simple design of the system, but by those that insist on controlling it, therefore corrupting it's orginal purpose.

__________________

dawgXdenta

The story of capitalism

Twas a nice idea. We messed it up. THEE END

__________________
Today's world is of public opinion and the fates of nations are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be done. --- Osama bin Laden when relating how global media has the minds of the masses.
______________________________________
http://dawgxdenta.deviantart.com/gallery/

Alistair

The socialist nature of the UAW contributed to this mess with the auto industry by getting greedy themselves so this is a two sided problem and not as simple as capitalism failing. The Unions want to maintain employees at their current above average wages which are a large contributing factor to the financial troubles of the Big 3. If you read the so-called bailout the Unions wouldn't be required to make a single cut until 2011 by which time they are gambling that the economy will recover and nobody will care whether or not they take the pay cuts. Are the CEOs part of the problem as well? Most definitely and are even more to blame for not reeling in the unions years ago during the SUV bubble. Most of the CEOs should be forced out but if we require that the unions should be forced to make immediate concessions as well.

Capitalism has not failed us at all if you look at what it is. Capitalism is working just fine but people don't like to hear about other people losing jobs because of it. When at least one of the big three fail (inevitable in my mind) the market will adjust itself with mergers and other companies stepping into the void with a viable plan to succeed in the current conditions.

This has all happened before and it will all happen again.

__________________
- Alistair

Judas

this still doesn't solve what is enevitably a horrible system as it promote the least amount of people to have the most wealth and the most amount of people to have the least.

Reguardless of how you look at it, it's a continueous pyramid scheme, one in which is fail due to the ever changing natural system we live in. The only way to fix this however is to keep the pyramidal scheme set true, and unfortunately this involves in essence.... killing people....

__________________

BlueMak

This doesn't make any sense. At all. At least if you are talking about Capitalism.

__________________

The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

Tinkerhell

Ditto BlueMak. WTF?

__________________
Stupidity should be painful if not terminal.
Darwin for Sainthood!!

Judas

the system in general.... it'll always remain a pyramid like scheme..... the smaller are consumed in it's general designed, oventually leading to a super power company.... which then results in corruption.

to big....

__________________

BlueMak

Then by killing people you meant dissolving/splitting up companies...? Which already happens in many countries when necessary.

Or are you just depressed now?

__________________

The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.