Seperation of Church & State ... whatever happened to that?

Judas · Feb 9, 2009, 04:58 PM

Aren't they saposed to be seperate?

The White House - Blog Post - Working with faith

Tyrsonswood · Feb 9, 2009, 05:05 PM

I think seperation of church and state died when "we the people" became "us and them"

Judas · Feb 9, 2009, 05:13 PM

indeed... when they became that as well as a "business" as well as the "judge and jury" as well as the current

DICTATORSHIP...

shit's getting uglier every day and people get fed a line of bs from some of these peoples mouths, and just up and accept it like it's all fine. All they gotta do is wave the word "terrorist" once... just stick it in there.. and the majority's eye's will just glaze over and not actually hear a reason.

And peoples guns and whatnot are being taken and not given back daily now...

Judas · Feb 9, 2009, 05:20 PM

~> Property seizures seen as piracy

OldBuzzard · Feb 9, 2009, 07:41 PM

The original intent of the Founding Fathers in regards to religion has been peverted beyone all belief.

It is Freedom OF Religion, not Freedom FROM Religion. The did not seek to avoid any mention of religion by the government. They only wanted to prevent the government from establishing a STATE religion, and outlawing all other religions. They wanted the citizens to be able to practice any religion that they desire, and not be told by the government that they could only worship as a Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Church of England, etc.

Judas · Feb 9, 2009, 09:35 PM

which is fine by all rights...

but since when should a government have anything to do with it specifically.. and who will be directing the "faith" based department, and in which faith are they working in? It's all going to oventually or initially lean in there wanted direction.... it's an unnecessary department, just like the other countless departments that excist.

TheAscension · Feb 24, 2009, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldBuzzard

The original intent of the Founding Fathers in regards to religion has been peverted beyone all belief.

It is Freedom OF Religion, not Freedom FROM Religion. The did not seek to avoid any mention of religion by the government. They only wanted to prevent the government from establishing a STATE religion, and outlawing all other religions. They wanted the citizens to be able to practice any religion that they desire, and not be told by the government that they could only worship as a Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Church of England, etc.

You couldn't be more spot on. If anyone cares to do a little research, that is exactly what our founding fathers had in mind. Probably the most mangled, misunderstood, and abused peice of American governmental policy ever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judas

which is fine by all rights...

but since when should a government have anything to do with it specifically.. and who will be directing the "faith" based department, and in which faith are they working in? It's all going to oventually or initially lean in there wanted direction.... it's an unnecessary department, just like the other countless departments that excist.

Since 1776 is when government, at least this one, should have religion specifically involved. Our founding fathers were Christians and knew that this country needed Christian principles as a foundation by which to govern. Not that Christianity would be imposed upon it's citizens, but rather there needed to be a starting point, a foundation, a "rule" if you will. I have a book that is at least 600 pages full of quotes from our founding fathers. Most of them have reference to God, or Christ, or some sort of Christian overtone.

Falstaff · Feb 24, 2009, 08:55 PM

Mr. President
To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.
Gentlemen
The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.

TheAscension · Feb 24, 2009, 09:15 PM

Seems pretty clear in reinforcing what I and OldBuzzard agree upon.

Falstaff · Feb 24, 2009, 09:52 PM

its American History and it is in print. LOL
I actually listen to a really good show on National Public Radio about Thomas Jefferson and over the years, with a blending of fact and some good theator, history comes alive. I also recommend the movie John Adams that came out recently.
My America, our America or the nation of America would be a far different place if Alexis de Tocqueville 's philosophy hadnt affected so many of our "founding fathers". What we ignore or history has ignored is the people that financed the first war between America and England. So many ideas came from Greece, Italy, France, England and the faithful conviction of those that settled here in America was the foundation for many unique American Institutions. Without clouding the issue. Americans are who we are because our government embraces all the tenents of the first 100 years of our state. That might seem to be a great simplification, but the rest of the world, the free world that is, is choosing a similiar path.
Look at our statue of Liberty in harbor of New York, a gift from the French government and Mr. Eiffel. What prompted the interest in the pursuit of personal freedom, the duty to the state and the respect for diversity that we know now. It certainly wasnt what it is now two hundred years ago. Though many people wont admit it perhaps, but the history of the France we know now and America are inexorably meshed together after both revolutions.
The crucible of freedom is struggle, sacrifice and faith - Jeffrey Fallang
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville

Perhaps Tocqueville didnt invent the idea's of the state, religion and his own personal ideas about government, but he was a great influence on Thomas Jefferson and continues to influence us now.

Feb 9, 2009, 07:41 PM	#5
OldBuzzard DH's oldest Geek Join Date: May 2003 Location: Oberlin, OH Posts: 2,781 Rep Power: 141 System Specs	Re: Seperation of Church & State ... whatever happened to that? The original intent of the Founding Fathers in regards to religion has been peverted beyone all belief. It is Freedom OF Religion, not Freedom FROM Religion. The did not seek to avoid any mention of religion by the government. They only wanted to prevent the government from establishing a STATE religion, and outlawing all other religions. They wanted the citizens to be able to practice any religion that they desire, and not be told by the government that they could only worship as a Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Church of England, etc. __________________ When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

Feb 24, 2009, 08:55 PM	#8
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,047 Rep Power: 206	Re: Seperation of Church & State ... whatever happened to that? Mr. President To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut. Gentlemen The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing. Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties. I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem. (signed) Thomas Jefferson Jan.1.1802. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Feb 24, 2009, 09:15 PM	#9
TheAscension DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Milwaukie, OR Posts: 94 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	Re: Seperation of Church & State ... whatever happened to that? Seems pretty clear in reinforcing what I and OldBuzzard agree upon.

Feb 24, 2009, 09:52 PM	#10
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,047 Rep Power: 206	Re: Seperation of Church & State ... whatever happened to that? its American History and it is in print. LOL I actually listen to a really good show on National Public Radio about Thomas Jefferson and over the years, with a blending of fact and some good theator, history comes alive. I also recommend the movie John Adams that came out recently. My America, our America or the nation of America would be a far different place if Alexis de Tocqueville 's philosophy hadnt affected so many of our "founding fathers". What we ignore or history has ignored is the people that financed the first war between America and England. So many ideas came from Greece, Italy, France, England and the faithful conviction of those that settled here in America was the foundation for many unique American Institutions. Without clouding the issue. Americans are who we are because our government embraces all the tenents of the first 100 years of our state. That might seem to be a great simplification, but the rest of the world, the free world that is, is choosing a similiar path. Look at our statue of Liberty in harbor of New York, a gift from the French government and Mr. Eiffel. What prompted the interest in the pursuit of personal freedom, the duty to the state and the respect for diversity that we know now. It certainly wasnt what it is now two hundred years ago. Though many people wont admit it perhaps, but the history of the France we know now and America are inexorably meshed together after both revolutions. The crucible of freedom is struggle, sacrifice and faith - Jeffrey Fallang http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville Perhaps Tocqueville didnt invent the idea's of the state, religion and his own personal ideas about government, but he was a great influence on Thomas Jefferson and continues to influence us now. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor." Last edited by Falstaff; Feb 24, 2009 at 10:01 PM.