So how are all the Optimist doing?

Tinkerhell · Mar 1, 2009, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judas

obama's recent speech was filled with absalute bullshit..

he essentially stated that the way to fix the problem is to create credit out of thin air to purchase capital. Where he gets these ideas i simply can't understand... nor is the idea of nationalizing banks... that just screams major bad things.

And people keep thinking that because they are the government, they don't follow the same basic rules that apply to anyone else in any other scale of the system... specially when their hands are tied by a privatised federal reserve.

It may be the end of the world. I agree with everything said in one of Judas's posts.

Oh, wait, nope. It must have just been some small hiccupp in the time flow of the universe:

Quote:

Granted currency in general is a load of crap, and is unnecessary, people insist due to simply refusing to even look at non currency systems,

He's back to normal with talking crazy shit. Or maybe not. I'm gonna rush out & start my chicken farm so I can trade eggs with china for the new 60" plasma I want....

[hobo]eclipse · Mar 1, 2009, 01:26 AM

fractional reserve banking, big trouble

Kazeko · Mar 16, 2009, 05:00 AM

This optimist is doing just fine.
Being an econ major (though in the initial study, I admit) there's a few things that come to mind.

I'm going to go with Judas to a degree. The original basis of a Fiat monetary system is something called the Real Bills Doctrine. Simply put, means that money can be continually created and injected into a society without inflation so long as goods and services are being exchanged for the currency. (And we all should know that inflation is very real.) This is the theory under which the federal reserve was established, and the gold standard was abandoned. It was the perspective in economic thinking at the end of the 19th century. It also caused the Great Depression. Banks able to lend and lend, with no basis behind a loan and no limit to what they can loan. They essentially flood the market with money... sounding familiar yet?

This has become exacerbated with electronic banking transactions and essentially, fiat currencies allow banks to "create money," above and beyond even the Federal Reserve's authority. While they're not actually creating dollars, they're producing transactions that don't have any basis except a dollar figure on a balance sheet. What happens when it can't collect? Same thing that happened in the 1980's. Same thing that happened in the 1920's. Same thing that happened in 2007. The purpose behind the gold standard, was to provide an objective value to money. No, gold may not be of any objective "Value" to you, or someone else, but it's still rare, limited in volume (therefore providing a limit in lending) and has the same "value" as any fiat currency otherwise would.

The challenge faced by a gold standard (or silver standard, or any other standard) is that it limits growth. An economy backed by gold, can't grow beyond the supply. - Essentially it can't inflate or deflate to fit population.

Part of the purpose in "semi-nationalizing" our banking system, is to allow government to regulate that currency to sustain regular growth, without letting lending become too inflationary. - This is Keynesian economics. While I disagree with a great volume of it (or really, any government involvement in the economic function of our society) I can understand the purpose.

So, this optimist realizes two things.

A. ... is for Aristotle - "... easy it is for the ignorant to believe that all has become confusion and doom." -- The housing market in the US is starting to return, and the DJIA is back above 7k.... not 11k, like it was, but when you inflate the market as was explained, the reduction is not a "Decrease" persay, but instead a return to normal.

B. One of the keys to life is acknowledgment and elimination of the Malevolent Universe Premise.
Politicians are not necessarily out to get you. Neither is big business. Neither is your neighbor, or another country. The universe is not intrinsically malevolent. While potentially toxic chemicals may threaten your life, people are capable of rational thought, kindness, and good will. Some people may choose to be toxic, but we are unique because we have the capacity to care, be gentle and be kind.

Some might be, like the militant folks in the mid-east. But if I was praying to live until I was 40, while some 70 year old douche-bags sat in a nice air-conditioned building pining about what to do with the current state of health care, I'd be pissed too. (That's a joke, not a justification.)

The Keynesians (which is, again, the dominant economic thought of the epoch) are doing what they believe is the correct method to get us out of this mess.

I'm a U.S. Citizen, and I don't want to see Canada, England or anywhere else in Europe fall apart anymore than I want to see my own country fall apart - And they won't. Most commonly overlooked element of U.S. History - Regardless of the tragedy, failure or misfortune, we've picked up, and not only carried on, but improved. I see this as a speed bump, not a mountain.

Life is good. The only decision, is yours, to find the good, or fall into the bad. Seeing the good in any situation, is far more difficult than seeing the bad.

Judas · Mar 16, 2009, 06:31 AM

it's a bit optimistic no different then the optimism seen when the djia fell to the lower 8000's and just barely into the 7000's only to rebound and climb up into the 9500's before taking another steep decline. This trend is obvious, it falls right in line with just about every other major depression situation that has ever occured.

It's world wide, the ripples take AGES to span around and touch everything, and it takes even longer for them to ripple back and forth a few times before becoming still again... we are far from that...

Nearly every country as a privatised central bank called something like "The Federal Reserve" which isn't any more federal then "Federal Xpress" yet they are able to dictate and impose laws and rules without consent of the people, the government and the president in relations to what itself handles. You can dig up a many many sets of quotes from the foundering fathers of the US and other presidents that have made mistakes and then realized it.

There is FAR more going on here then just this single "bubble" finacial issue... there always was.. there always will be until it's all able to completely crash and a new better stronger and reliable system is estabilished without the few business men that do what they do best.. business.... running the show.

I'm actually quite optimistic... really i am, because while everyone sees the crumbling walls around us fall apart and emediately thinks the worse thing possible about the situation, i look at it the walls as if they were prison bars.....

The only problem is are they going to be able to rebuild the walls up fast enough to counter them falling, or when they finally crumble.... am i just going to be slapped up into another even worse cage. The only issue i have is that the last thing occuring will likely result in my death simply do to fighting such a thing.

Get your priorities straight, get an education that isn't at all what it taught in schools because that's just useless material, and what some may think is bad, actually is quite good.

Don't know about you guys but i'm sick of non reality we are being forced to live in.

Zelig · Mar 16, 2009, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judas

Get your priorities straight, get an education that isn't at all what it taught in schools because that's just useless material, and what some may think is bad, actually is quite good.

Unless you want to get paid well, in which case, I'd recommend going to a real school, and learning something useful in the real world.

Mar 1, 2009, 01:26 AM	#32
[hobo]eclipse ...just bummin 'round Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,907 Rep Power: 112 System Specs	Re: So how are all the Optimist doing? fractional reserve banking, big trouble

Mar 16, 2009, 05:00 AM	#33
Kazeko DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 174 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	Re: So how are all the Optimist doing? This optimist is doing just fine. Being an econ major (though in the initial study, I admit) there's a few things that come to mind. I'm going to go with Judas to a degree. The original basis of a Fiat monetary system is something called the Real Bills Doctrine. Simply put, means that money can be continually created and injected into a society without inflation so long as goods and services are being exchanged for the currency. (And we all should know that inflation is very real.) This is the theory under which the federal reserve was established, and the gold standard was abandoned. It was the perspective in economic thinking at the end of the 19th century. It also caused the Great Depression. Banks able to lend and lend, with no basis behind a loan and no limit to what they can loan. They essentially flood the market with money... sounding familiar yet? This has become exacerbated with electronic banking transactions and essentially, fiat currencies allow banks to "create money," above and beyond even the Federal Reserve's authority. While they're not actually creating dollars, they're producing transactions that don't have any basis except a dollar figure on a balance sheet. What happens when it can't collect? Same thing that happened in the 1980's. Same thing that happened in the 1920's. Same thing that happened in 2007. The purpose behind the gold standard, was to provide an objective value to money. No, gold may not be of any objective "Value" to you, or someone else, but it's still rare, limited in volume (therefore providing a limit in lending) and has the same "value" as any fiat currency otherwise would. The challenge faced by a gold standard (or silver standard, or any other standard) is that it limits growth. An economy backed by gold, can't grow beyond the supply. - Essentially it can't inflate or deflate to fit population. Part of the purpose in "semi-nationalizing" our banking system, is to allow government to regulate that currency to sustain regular growth, without letting lending become too inflationary. - This is Keynesian economics. While I disagree with a great volume of it (or really, any government involvement in the economic function of our society) I can understand the purpose. So, this optimist realizes two things. A. ... is for Aristotle - "... easy it is for the ignorant to believe that all has become confusion and doom." -- The housing market in the US is starting to return, and the DJIA is back above 7k.... not 11k, like it was, but when you inflate the market as was explained, the reduction is not a "Decrease" persay, but instead a return to normal. B. One of the keys to life is acknowledgment and elimination of the Malevolent Universe Premise. Politicians are not necessarily out to get you. Neither is big business. Neither is your neighbor, or another country. The universe is not intrinsically malevolent. While potentially toxic chemicals may threaten your life, people are capable of rational thought, kindness, and good will. Some people may choose to be toxic, but we are unique because we have the capacity to care, be gentle and be kind. Some might be, like the militant folks in the mid-east. But if I was praying to live until I was 40, while some 70 year old douche-bags sat in a nice air-conditioned building pining about what to do with the current state of health care, I'd be pissed too. (That's a joke, not a justification.) The Keynesians (which is, again, the dominant economic thought of the epoch) are doing what they believe is the correct method to get us out of this mess. I'm a U.S. Citizen, and I don't want to see Canada, England or anywhere else in Europe fall apart anymore than I want to see my own country fall apart - And they won't. Most commonly overlooked element of U.S. History - Regardless of the tragedy, failure or misfortune, we've picked up, and not only carried on, but improved. I see this as a speed bump, not a mountain. Life is good. The only decision, is yours, to find the good, or fall into the bad. Seeing the good in any situation, is far more difficult than seeing the bad.