So how are all the Optimist doing?

Judas

over 5 months ago when things started getting ugly and the people while great having a good mindset for looking for the good to come out, kept on insisting that things would only get better, things would balance out and things would be back to normal.

3 months ago same perspective..

1 month ago...

shit theres people today that are still stating that "a few more weeks or months and we'll be singing again"

i'd suggest taking a look at this short 3 part video that aired last night

YouTube - Glenn Beck's 'War Room' experts: Worst-Case Scenario (U.S. Collapse?) Part 1/3; 02-20-09

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Zelig

My investments have beat inflation over the past 5 months.

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OmegaRED

Eh, doesn't seem so bad to me.

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dawgXdenta

I'm not an end of the world nutter , but it only takes a quick glance around the room thrown with a dash of science, a tot of research and a bite of THE REAL WORLD WE LIVE IN to see that its probably gonna get worse, a lot worse.

I figure something like children of Men without the women birth thing.

Its inevitable........ because we are dumb

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Today's world is of public opinion and the fates of nations are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be done. --- Osama bin Laden when relating how global media has the minds of the masses.
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Judas

generally i'm not that much of a pesimist...


but....

i can't rule out that chances of those occuring.. and it's increasing daily due to the amount of incompetence... and the lack of people willing to even look into anything at all.

Talking with some brokers... they are litterly shitting themselves.

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OmegaRED

Judas, I don't think I'd be optimistic if I was American but the fact is Canada is spared much of the crisis thanks thanks to the stability of our banks and other factors so unless you have money tied up in lots of stocks the sky shouldn't be falling.

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Judas

Our banks stability?

that's why CIBC is in a pile of shit due to thier investments falling appart... BMO is also in a fair but of termoil due to similare things occuring.

Our dollar continues to lose it's value at the same or faster rate as the US dollar.

And with the recent now sitting at 107 billion dollar bailout that due to undemocratic means, was forced onto Harper, our system is only just starting to get warmed up, in the similare fashion as the US's system. Keep in mind that just about everything that the US has in population, bailout equivilences and such is roughly 10% for canada. the US grants a 800billion bailout for the people that screwed up horribly and still walk away with all that money, and in turn, canada purposes a similare 80billion dollar that essentially is "equal" across all the citizens in what is owed in that single shot of idiocy.

Our TSX is NOT fairing as well as people insist on thinking, similare to that of DJIA or nasdaq. Every single economists who actually doesn't spout political BS and says it how it is, states that reguardless of where you are in the world, it's going to hit bloody hard, and that's being optimistic.

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Zelig

So one of the big five had a write-off of about two-thirds of their yearly net income.

What the heck are you comparing our dollar to?

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Judas

GBP or EURO is hardly worth comparing... they are suffering just as well...

it's all FIAT currency.....

I may as well hand you 3 peices of lego in different sizes and say that the larger they are, the more money they are worth as a currency.. and then put it on the market and say that it's value has increased substatially.

why don't you whip out the GOLD backed standard for the values.... quit comparing currencies to each other and use something that actually has some sort of standard for value..

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dawgXdenta

Domino effect, bub, domino effect. I dont think any nation is immune

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Today's world is of public opinion and the fates of nations are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be done. --- Osama bin Laden when relating how global media has the minds of the masses.
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Cow_160483

To be honest i really hate the financial system, it doesn't matter where in the world you are it sucks. I will give a fact with myself, according to the bank i cant afford to get a loan for a house or a car because i dont get payed in a bank transfer system i.e. i get a check at the end of the month which i then deposit into the bank, what fucking bullshit is this, they are not happy that i have a good job that pays me decently they want to keep the my money in their computers and charge me for moving it around in their system and thats bull ....

Sorry 4 going off on a tangent

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Decode!
Muhahahahah!

Zelig

Fiat currency has value because it is backed by the government and because people trust that it will maintain its value.

Gold has value because people trust that it will maintain its value.

There's nothing inherently broken with fiat currency, comparable to how there's nothing that makes gold inherently worth more than the paper money is printed on.

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OmegaRED

Some Canadian banks may have taken a hit but we don't have the housing crisis that America has and that's a big difference.

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Judas

Just because we aren't in the same current state right now, doesn't mean we won't follow.... that's foolish to think we won't hurt from it ... in either a lesser or similare state.

The fiat system is HORRIBLY broken, the government backed bills are indeed valueless and people are picking up on that, the moment that decided to excuse the gold backing for government backing, the systems reliability and trust was broken, working on virtual and imaginary figures.

Our pennies are worth more then they actually are, and they've only started trying to produce those pennies for a cheaper value..

Our dollars, as well as the US dollars or any other currency right now is worth a couple thousand percent less then it's orginal gold standard backed valued.

A gold backed currency was a way to prevent out of control super inflation, the only reason it was removed was to allow any country that wanted to, to produce insane amounts of the currency, flood the market with it, and "insist" that it still had the same value.

This is why the canadian dollar is in question, not for it's inflationary value, but for it's reasons for not retaining value. It raises the question why alot of currency around the world, reguardless of being mass produced is continueing to drop in it's true values.

Governments and other groups that have the power to do so, have kept a number of things at a set or very slow inflation value. This being gold, food, and other things. They can't keep them in check now.

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Zelig

Saying it's a bad system doesn't make it so. Like I said before, gold has no more inherent value than bills, it's all about perception.

This has nothing to do with fiat currency.

They should have stopped producing pennies years ago, and we should probably look at withdrawing the nickel soon.

Regardless of the reasons why the gold standard was abandonned, returning to it now would be a huge mistake. It would simply cause huge increases in the price of gold, while crippling governments' ability to affect monetary policy.

Current inflation is by no means "super inflation" (unless you're looking at places like Zimbabwe), and in most cases, is well understood. Governments could clamp down on inflation if they wanted, but it would cause more harm than good to the economy.

That's what currency does. Inflation isn't inherently bad.

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Judas

you don't have to go very far to research the stuff here.

The majority of the concetration on the system right now is at the symptoms.... they aren't focusing on the cause.. .and dropping the gold backed standard was one of the causes.... fixing it yes.. would causing significant harm EMEDIATELY... but then it would be said and done with.... unlike the current system that is constantly getting blown up resulting in something FAR worse then the real fix.

Just research the source, i can't see anyone not being royally upset when they figure out exactly how the system is broken down and how limiting it is to all of us.

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Zelig

I know all about fiat currency and the gold standard, I minored in economics at university. You aren't really posting much tangible stuff for me to respond to though, other than "the system is broke".

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Judas

what's the point, any links i am likely to post won't be taken any more seriously.

Do your own research, there is plenty of facts on how the current system is working us into crash, just the derivatives alone in the market are enough to get lost in.

I guess you could go look up the "gig is up" on google video which is related to economics.. and explains a little on the fiat system and how currencies are traded, bought, sold and how the root design that is never really looked into at all produces the end result for failure.

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Judas

excellent negative rep..

you win at the fantasy game.... now what's your number, maybe some of these brokers/economists are willing to set your straight? (doubt they'd waist thier time though)

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Zelig

I've already done my research, I understand why the fiat system works.

And as little respect as I have for the discipline of economics, I have even less for youtube videos about economics. If you post arguments on here, I'll respond to them, but I'm not responding to random kiddies who decided to make a youtube video about the apocalypse in their spare time.

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Judas

no no..

go to google video.. and pull up the "the gig is up", it's a workshop presented by someone that has touched on a number of things.... not some kiddy youtubers...

i agree, there is a pile of garbage out there to sort through. Running into kiddies that explain very little or emediately base a whole lot of oppinion on one side or the other without presenting any tangeable information..

i mean if i took the time to thoroughly explain my understandings of how it work, where it works VERY well and where it's VERY Broken, i'd need a few hundred page book and a whole lot of time to do it right.

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Tinkerhell

Judas likes doing that.
Though he is right. Read some of his sources & you will think they are as nuts as some of us think Judas is. (still luv ya though man )


In retrospect I agree we should have stayed on the gold standard. It does limit the manipulations that are possible for the government, however I think i'ts been made clear in the last 40 years or so that the government (US for sure) ain't all that hot at making small, effecient adjustments & letting things run their course 95% of the time. They toss the biggest monkey wrench into the system they can find which serves their puposes of securing a re-election and increases the power of their party.

I also agree that changing back to the gold standard at this point would be crippling. Now ain't the time. Once the economy stabalizes and we come out of this recession then maybe we should look at it. But we won't...

Markets are shit right now. Probably will stay that way for a while. Probably going to get worse before better because PBO won't shut up, lay low & stop spending (printing) money like it's freakin sand on a beach. However I've got almost 20 years until I retire & my son goes to college. I'm putting every penny I can into my retirement plan & his college fund. I'm expecting that in 15 - 20 years the markets will have made a huge turnaround and what I invest now will be worth a ton in a couple of decades. It will hopefully be sooner than that if we get rid of BO in 2012 and this whole episode results in a massive upswing in support for true Conservatives.

Unless he gets his increases in welfare and socialized healthcare put in place & has his voting base substantially expanded because of that - if all the dependant, ammoral dipshits vote him in for another term I'm going to start looking to move to some small island somewhere... Maybe my state will just secede. Or at least a state that I'd like to move to. I honestly think we should scrape the of Congress & start over with some new rules. I said before I'd be happy to acrifice my soul to be the one to do the hanging on the Whitehouse lawn of all those bastards.

(now I'll really get on Judas' "your hopeless list")
God's got a plan & this is part of it. Maybe things are being set up to get really bad to pave the way for a real change & swing the US & the world into a better more independant place or maybe he's setting up for the Second Coming. Either way I'm good with it. The US is the toughest, strongest nation in the world. We will survive & come out on top if it's not going to be the end of times.

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Stupidity should be painful if not terminal.
Darwin for Sainthood!!

Judas

obama's recent speech was filled with absalute bullshit..

he essentially stated that the way to fix the problem is to create credit out of thin air to purchase capital. Where he gets these ideas i simply can't understand... nor is the idea of nationalizing banks... that just screams major bad things.

And people keep thinking that because they are the government, they don't follow the same basic rules that apply to anyone else in any other scale of the system... specially when their hands are tied by a privatised federal reserve.

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Tyrsonswood

We can't return to the gold standard in the U.S. because most of our gold is now in the middle east..... we would be broke as a nation if we tried.


(we're pretty broke right now actually, except for all that monopoly money we print)

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dawgXdenta

Yes it is "a bad system", I live in africa. The more I talk to people overseas the more I realize how disconnected you guys are from the suffering of 80% of the world, thats very sad.

"gold has no more inherent value than bills, it's all about perception": this is true though I dont think that it is feasible for us to use gold as currency we are after all 6billion +

BTW judas dont feel like we aint heard you, I've been won over since I watched Zeitgeist.
I'm doing whatever I can to make sure that this disgusting system isnt carried over to future generations, by educating them on ways to tackle the future and come up with tangible solutions, for all our problems.

One step at a time, One step at a time....
The most useless thing is when I discover how the current generation are so addicted to this corruptive system. Thats why I dont bother with this generation, they are hopeless.
For every 10 people you would convive 1
But with kids they learn quicky and are open minded.
I mean WTF is the point in defending something the doesnt work

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Today's world is of public opinion and the fates of nations are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be done. --- Osama bin Laden when relating how global media has the minds of the masses.
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Zelig

I wasn't referring to the state of the world, or anything in the large scheme of things, simply to fiat currency.

There are three choices for currency systems:

1. No currency.
2. Currency back by gold (or silver, cows, bottlecaps, human skulls, etc.)
3. Fiat currency.

As it stands, fiat currency is the best option available to us.

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Judas

Fiat currency is a short term solution, Gold back had a long term solution... both of which would reguardless of how well kept the system was, oventually fail. Both systems produce a "bubble" in a sense. The only real difference is that the fiat system allows for such an extreme bubble to be produced, that when it deflates, it causes long term depression senarios. Gold backed will produce a depression, but it's usually far shorter due to rapidly setting orginal solid currency values.

Granted currency in general is a load of crap, and is unnecessary, people insist due to simply refusing to even look at non currency systems, or due to be told it would induce a government that would be worse then anything we've got, which is mostly bs, but still possible if it was a similare system that we've got today without currency. It's obviously a hard pill to swallow, it CAN be done, but requires a serious paradime shift for it to occur. The majority usually doesn't really know what they are talking about, nor how to solve a problem, they want quick fixes that usually always results in long term major problems far worse then the current situation. Our current system is basically destroying the next generations lives, and while yes i know Canada isn't all that bad, that doesn't mean we don't have to at least think about and try and fix it before we get to the stage where it's simply to late. It's also quite selfish to think that just cause some of us are citizens of countries that aren't all that bad off, that we don't or shouldn't really have to be concerned for everyone else. That in itself is just a cowardly sad mindset to have about it.



I honestly think gold should have zero value as well, it has very little to no uses really in everyday life, copper would be a little bit more valueable or iron due to being superior metal for just about everything.

The true, necessities of life are what is so incredibly valueable, that they really should be invalueable. Food for one is something that is still quite cheap, the prices have barely inflated at all, the farmers got better grain values back in the mid 70's and in the 50's that they haven't seen at all really since. And when it comes down to it, when the real shit hits the fan, the only people that have ever, and will continue to be able to provide food are the farmers. (and don't get grain, animal, or wildlife farmers confused)

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dawgXdenta

AIT, good to know.

My opinion on the 3 solutions

1. No currency. (DUMB, what? socialism wasn't a good enough experiment 4ya)

2. Currency back by gold (or silver, cows, bottle caps, human skulls, etc.)
Is that really feasible

3. Fiat currency. So long as goverments keep on printing valueless notes ummm we are headed for trouuuuuuble.snap snap

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Today's world is of public opinion and the fates of nations are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be done. --- Osama bin Laden when relating how global media has the minds of the masses.
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http://dawgxdenta.deviantart.com/gallery/

dawgXdenta

They jokes weren't directed to u Zelig BTW just joking around. nod

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Today's world is of public opinion and the fates of nations are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be done. --- Osama bin Laden when relating how global media has the minds of the masses.
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http://dawgxdenta.deviantart.com/gallery/

Judas

lol look at this

YouTube - Ron Paul's opening statement 2009.02.25

this is what happens when someone starts to make sense, and even the news anchors that weren't expecting it start to look like complete idiots because they got a good dose of logical and a realistic look at what is happening....

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