Anti-Government Protests Rock Iran

JavaFox · Jun 14, 2003, 05:57 AM

Iran, a hotbed of growing discontent over economic and culutral ills, experienced large anti-government protests yesterday, which including heretofore unheard-of calls to assassinate Ayatollah Khameinei. Is this something we in the West (as most of us, I think, are) should be cheering on, or is it cause for concern?

I actually wouldn't be surprised if the US had a hand in this. Is this President Bush's "Bay of Pigs"? Most importantly, does anyone here think these are isolated incidents, or do you think they are just a sign of things to come?

A democratic Iran? Could it be?

Malus · Jun 14, 2003, 05:59 AM

Looks like a sign of the end times.

Falstaff · Jun 14, 2003, 01:00 PM

According the English version of the Iran Daily news www.iran-daily.com , The U.S. is stirring up trouble for the Iranians and attempting to usurp power away from the present government. In the perspective column of the paper, the editor mentioned that in 2004 there will possibly more of the "BUSHIES" exercising influence in the world since we are working hand in hand with the Pro israelite rulers.

Now if you use the appropriate filtering mechanism (like common sense) you can clearly see the protests are blamed on the U.S. If you read the paper further you will see that the U.S. is afraid to confront IRAN and we are devisive and cunning....

If you read other papers like the palestinian chronical or the Arab Daily news, the message is essentially the same, the U.S. is perpetuating the state of unrest in the arab world.

Personally I feel that IRAN has been politically unstable even before the Shah assumed power years ago, his eventual overthrow by the Ayatollah wasn't a surprise either. There are some real hard liners in IRAN, and they have just as much power as the religious interests in Israel. There won't be any reforms in IRAN unless they occur gradually. Student demonstrations could have easily been put down by force, but they were allowed to continue. The weapons the students used were rocks and insults, nothing more.

I don't think these events are significant in terms of international repercussions, but clearly the government is aware that the different political interests in IRAN are restless, blaming us won't change that.

JavaFox · Jun 14, 2003, 04:58 PM

"Predictably, the conservative clerics who exercise real power in Iran are trying to blame all their problems on a Satanic America. Even they must know better. What fuels unrest in Iran today isn't the machinations of Washington but the explosive discontent of the Iranian people, especially the young and the educated. After nearly 25 years of an Islamic dictatorship that has drastically limited personal freedoms and stunted economic growth, the Iranian people are eager for change."

Falstaff · Jun 14, 2003, 08:59 PM

You know what is so ironic is that when the Shah fell, the pro islamists were all united in some cohesive fashion and seemed to hold the country together amid the political turmoil, and I wasn't against it for the most part, I was living Crete at the time and my father was in turkey, we forsaw a huge rise in fundamentalist backed coups of corrupt governments but they didn't happen. I often wonder if it was because if they really pushed their luck, Pres. Reagan would have brought the fire and brimstone on them, they managed to solidify control over IRAN and slowly emerged as a credible power. I am not defending the government of IRAN but in terms of vulnerability, it must change or change will be forced upon it.

Reuter · Jun 14, 2003, 10:49 PM

It is quite simple.
Divert Iran, start political troubles, keep them busy so they can't fully support their fundamental brothers in Iracq.
Believe me, the US is even now not fully realising whats laying ahead, but some are waking up.

Falstaff · Jun 14, 2003, 11:03 PM

Syria, Jordan, Yemen, Turkey, and of course IRAN....

Reuter · Jun 15, 2003, 12:36 AM

JavaFox made a good point about the Iranian educated but I think this protests will die in a lot of bloodshed...
What's more alarming is the way fundamentalism is spreading into the more moderate countrys.
And franctly said: I do not see how military interventions could be of any use to stop it.
What should be done is taking Iran out of its isolation by any possible means in a way the West and the UN can get a grip.
This is mostly achieved by increasing economical relations so a new middle class can emerge.
From then on you only have to wait, they will do the job for you.

Falstaff · Jun 15, 2003, 01:50 AM

if there are any moderate muslims in power anymore..things can only get worse. I have heard that our intervention on behalf of the IRAQI people was more like the crusades of old, Lots of blooshed and the intolerance remains.. If your not a muslim you are an infidel, it's in the Koran...

JavaFox · Jun 15, 2003, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fallang_jeff
if there are any moderate muslims in power anymore..

There are some -- Mubarak in Egypt and Erdogan/Sezer in Turkey.

This is partly the reason why we need to be successful in Iraq. Iraq wasn't just about WMD, it was about changing the social climate of a region. For some reason --be it disparities in weath, oppressive governments, or lack of sociopolitical freedom-- that region breeds hostility and despair. Without getting too psychological about the matter, the region we call the Middle East has such a climate that it, in many ways, creates a feeling of hopelessness in many of its people, which in turn, can lead people to think that fundamentalism and hatred for the West is the only way.

In this sense we must not fail in Iraq. If Iraq can become prosperous, with social and civil liberties, it will instill hope in Muslims. There will be a safe haven in the Middle East -- a place where fundamentalism is scorned and indeed even ridiculed, where people can live without fear of oppression and have the right to determine their own destiny. Changing the social climate of the region is a very important task, and it is absolutely necessary to making the Middle East peaceful.

Cultural imperialism? Perhaps. But it is for the betterment of all peoples.

Falstaff · Jun 15, 2003, 06:25 AM

We are the best friends moderate muslims have in IRAQ..

Reuter · Jun 15, 2003, 12:55 PM

The problem is even the moderate muslims see any intervention as an invasion.
You cannot say they are wrong eighter because we have a long history about all sorts of no good interventions in the region.
Thats why, and I warned about it before, the US will not succeed in Iracq.
The upraisings are already starting and what do we do?
Just the same things the Iranian gouvernment is doing to their troublemakers....

Falstaff · Jun 15, 2003, 02:26 PM

Our primary objectives are won, we roam freely in IRAQ albiet with firepower to back us up. But Saddam is probably still alive, and his loyalists still perform attacks. I hope this doesn't turn out like another Vietnam, but it sure looks that way...

Reuter · Jun 15, 2003, 09:54 PM

I am afraid you are right.
Saddam was the leader of the moderate muslims keeping the fundamentalists out of power by, let's say it ,forcing an inhuman reign of terror upon them.
Years of terror made shure there was no opposition left but many fundamentalist leaders found refuge in Iran and are now returning to take over the country. The scenario could not have been more perfect for them.
Thats why Iran had no objection at all when the US and England planned and carried out their attack on Iracq.
They were already fully prepared for what was coming afterwards...

Falstaff · Jun 15, 2003, 10:22 PM

infiltration by fundamentalists bent on unify the two countries as they once were more than a hundred years ago..

Jun 14, 2003, 05:57 AM	#1
JavaFox E Pluribus Unum Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,203 Rep Power: 0	Anti-Government Protests Rock Iran Iran, a hotbed of growing discontent over economic and culutral ills, experienced large anti-government protests yesterday, which including heretofore unheard-of calls to assassinate Ayatollah Khameinei. Is this something we in the West (as most of us, I think, are) should be cheering on, or is it cause for concern? I actually wouldn't be surprised if the US had a hand in this. Is this President Bush's "Bay of Pigs"? Most importantly, does anyone here think these are isolated incidents, or do you think they are just a sign of things to come? A democratic Iran? Could it be?

Jun 14, 2003, 05:59 AM	#2
Malus BSD SMASH! Join Date: May 2002 Location: A rabbit hole. . . Posts: 1,170 Rep Power: 0	Looks like a sign of the end times. __________________ quad (FreeBSD/amd64 8-CURRENT): Intel Q6600 - Asus P5E-VM HDMI - 2x2 GB Kingston PC6400 DDR2 Ram - Seagate 320GB 7200RPM HD - 2xSeagate 1TB 7200RPM HD in RAID 1 via ZFS - Lite-On 20x DVD Multi Recorder - Coolermaster Centurion 5 router (FreeBSD/amd64 8-CURRENT): Intel E4500 - Intel D945GCNL - 2 GB PC6400 Mushkin Ram - Lite-On 48x24x48x16 - Seagate 320GB 7200RPM HD - Silverstone SST-SG02-F wanderer (FreeBSD/i386 7-CURRENT): Lenovo Thinkpad T61p mini (OS X 10.5): Intel Core 2 Duo @ 1.8Ghz, 4 GB Mushkin PC5400 Ram - Headroom MicroDAC Portable sound: Rockboxed iPod Video -> Westone UM2's Not-So-Portable Sound: Headroon MicroDAC -> Singlepower PPX3-SLAM -> Grado RS-1's or Beyerdynamic DT-880's Very-Not-Portable-Sound: Squeezebox v3 -> Denon AVR-1507 -> B&W 683's & Sunfire HRS-10

Jun 14, 2003, 01:00 PM	#3
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	The Bushies are at it again! According the English version of the Iran Daily news www.iran-daily.com , The U.S. is stirring up trouble for the Iranians and attempting to usurp power away from the present government. In the perspective column of the paper, the editor mentioned that in 2004 there will possibly more of the "BUSHIES" exercising influence in the world since we are working hand in hand with the Pro israelite rulers. Now if you use the appropriate filtering mechanism (like common sense) you can clearly see the protests are blamed on the U.S. If you read the paper further you will see that the U.S. is afraid to confront IRAN and we are devisive and cunning.... If you read other papers like the palestinian chronical or the Arab Daily news, the message is essentially the same, the U.S. is perpetuating the state of unrest in the arab world. Personally I feel that IRAN has been politically unstable even before the Shah assumed power years ago, his eventual overthrow by the Ayatollah wasn't a surprise either. There are some real hard liners in IRAN, and they have just as much power as the religious interests in Israel. There won't be any reforms in IRAN unless they occur gradually. Student demonstrations could have easily been put down by force, but they were allowed to continue. The weapons the students used were rocks and insults, nothing more. I don't think these events are significant in terms of international repercussions, but clearly the government is aware that the different political interests in IRAN are restless, blaming us won't change that. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jun 14, 2003, 04:58 PM	Thread Starter #4
JavaFox E Pluribus Unum Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,203 Rep Power: 0	The NYT is right on the money... "Predictably, the conservative clerics who exercise real power in Iran are trying to blame all their problems on a Satanic America. Even they must know better. What fuels unrest in Iran today isn't the machinations of Washington but the explosive discontent of the Iranian people, especially the young and the educated. After nearly 25 years of an Islamic dictatorship that has drastically limited personal freedoms and stunted economic growth, the Iranian people are eager for change."

Jun 14, 2003, 08:59 PM	#5
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	An Iranian civil war.. You know what is so ironic is that when the Shah fell, the pro islamists were all united in some cohesive fashion and seemed to hold the country together amid the political turmoil, and I wasn't against it for the most part, I was living Crete at the time and my father was in turkey, we forsaw a huge rise in fundamentalist backed coups of corrupt governments but they didn't happen. I often wonder if it was because if they really pushed their luck, Pres. Reagan would have brought the fire and brimstone on them, they managed to solidify control over IRAN and slowly emerged as a credible power. I am not defending the government of IRAN but in terms of vulnerability, it must change or change will be forced upon it. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jun 14, 2003, 10:49 PM	#6
Reuter DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Belgium, three feet from my monitor Posts: 55 Rep Power: 0	It is quite simple. Divert Iran, start political troubles, keep them busy so they can't fully support their fundamental brothers in Iracq. Believe me, the US is even now not fully realising whats laying ahead, but some are waking up.

Jun 14, 2003, 11:03 PM	#7
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Yep Syria, Jordan, Yemen, Turkey, and of course IRAN.... __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jun 15, 2003, 12:36 AM	#8
Reuter DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Belgium, three feet from my monitor Posts: 55 Rep Power: 0	JavaFox made a good point about the Iranian educated but I think this protests will die in a lot of bloodshed... What's more alarming is the way fundamentalism is spreading into the more moderate countrys. And franctly said: I do not see how military interventions could be of any use to stop it. What should be done is taking Iran out of its isolation by any possible means in a way the West and the UN can get a grip. This is mostly achieved by increasing economical relations so a new middle class can emerge. From then on you only have to wait, they will do the job for you.

Jun 15, 2003, 01:50 AM	#9
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Makes you wonder if there are any moderate muslims in power anymore..things can only get worse. I have heard that our intervention on behalf of the IRAQI people was more like the crusades of old, Lots of blooshed and the intolerance remains.. If your not a muslim you are an infidel, it's in the Koran... __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jun 15, 2003, 06:25 AM	#11
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	I know this will anger some but We are the best friends moderate muslims have in IRAQ.. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jun 15, 2003, 12:55 PM	#12
Reuter DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Belgium, three feet from my monitor Posts: 55 Rep Power: 0	The problem is even the moderate muslims see any intervention as an invasion. You cannot say they are wrong eighter because we have a long history about all sorts of no good interventions in the region. Thats why, and I warned about it before, the US will not succeed in Iracq. The upraisings are already starting and what do we do? Just the same things the Iranian gouvernment is doing to their troublemakers....

Jun 15, 2003, 02:26 PM	#13
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	This is true Our primary objectives are won, we roam freely in IRAQ albiet with firepower to back us up. But Saddam is probably still alive, and his loyalists still perform attacks. I hope this doesn't turn out like another Vietnam, but it sure looks that way... __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jun 15, 2003, 09:54 PM	#14
Reuter DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Belgium, three feet from my monitor Posts: 55 Rep Power: 0	I am afraid you are right. Saddam was the leader of the moderate muslims keeping the fundamentalists out of power by, let's say it ,forcing an inhuman reign of terror upon them. Years of terror made shure there was no opposition left but many fundamentalist leaders found refuge in Iran and are now returning to take over the country. The scenario could not have been more perfect for them. Thats why Iran had no objection at all when the US and England planned and carried out their attack on Iracq. They were already fully prepared for what was coming afterwards...

Jun 15, 2003, 10:22 PM	#15
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	YES infiltration by fundamentalists bent on unify the two countries as they once were more than a hundred years ago.. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."