Falstaff

Speaking on "Fox News Sunday," Sen. Richard Lugar, R-Indiana, said it "may be the conclusion" that an international force is needed to stop the violence and if so, "it is possible that there will be an American participation."

I cannot believe it, now the Sen. Lugar wants us to participate in some sort of peace keeping to allow the process of negotiations to continue between Sharon and Abbas..If we actually get involved it might be disasterous and further distance us from even moderate arabs..

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JavaFox

I think it's funny that so many people voted "get the UN involved" -- the PROBLEM there is the UN's fault, people! The UN created modern Israel and was charged with peaceful partition. Did that happen? No! Why would you get the UN involved when the UN has been involved since day one with no success?

Look at Pakistan and India. Yes, their relations are tense, but, with the exception of Kashmir, they both basically respect each other's borders. Do you think that's because the UN handled parition? No, it's because the authority at the time --the British-- handled it.

There will never be peace in that region while terrorists are free to operate, uncondemned. Israel's settlements are a problem, but Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Hezbollah is THE problem. There cannot be peace until the terrorists are deprived of funding, support, and, if necessary, their lives.

BWX

True

the only problem is that the real terrorists accuse Israel of being terrorists because they defend themselves. Then half the world believes them. Even our own president differentiates between the way we should defend ourselves and the way Isreal should. If it was us getting bombed and we knew who did it, it would be fine to blow them up- but if Israel does it, they get scolded. (and accused by most) The real terrorists don't even want Israel to exist at all, and way too many people agree with them--- that is the problem.

patje

Just a tought off topic:

If someone trows a rock at someone, why does he need a tank to shoot back?

but seriously, there is no "good" solution when 2 countrys are to stubborn to come to a solution.
Without an attitude change i don't see a good solution coming up.
ex: a terrorist attacks during the the time the 2 countrys are getting closer to a solution. result other country starts a "repayments action" for the attack.
this way there getting nowhere. nomather which country or UN interferes

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Falstaff

They definitely did not want Isarel to exist, they tried as best they could to prevent such a thing happening, and it did anyway. There were martyrs for the Zionist cause too, and sporadic attacks by Israeli freedom fighters. Palestinians were backed by just about everyone to help them prevent a rise of territorial initiatives by zionists in palestine and the fail, Young zionists had to carve out their country with the barrel of a gun, and they forced Palestinians out of their homelands to do it. But we all know the battle has raged for almost 2000 years, and it isn't going to stop because of the lamentation of their women and the deaths of their children. The Israeli's are raising their children to respect peace, but the Palestinians have traditionally raised their young men to be warriors and to carry guns. Now that may be a gross generalization but I believe it is true in many respects. A nation or nations would have to physcially seperate the Israeli's and Palestinians for years to get the cooperation they desire to make peace not war...I just don't see that happening...Did it work in Lebonan?

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FuNsTeR

option 3 for me one side is as bad as each other Isreal uses tanks , planes helicopters against the pals in a state terrorism program knowing that the pals do not posses such weapons

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"They say when you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear satanic messages ..... but that's nothing, if you play it forward it will install Windows"

Falstaff

The palestinians could possess, if the vigilant Israeli's failed to check, almost anything in the Jordanian or Syrian arsenal. I watched Israeli's respond to a terrorist attack in a Palestinian town on video tape, I was shocked to see a palestinian man shielding his son from volleys of fire from Israeli positions in the street...the video was several minutes long, but you could clearly see the man was unsuccessful, his son eventually took a head shot from a persistant gunner in a armoured personnel carrier. The father knew his son was hit, and my heart broke when I saw him attempt to breath life back into his boy, then he collapsed in the street crying and cradling his boy, a child of perhaps ten, then the shooting just stopped...and the man rocking back and forth began wailing and crying..I believe the Israeli's recognized the gravity of the killing and began to retreat...but no one came to the aid of the man and his son...for fear perhaps that they might be shot too.
I have seen brutality, and I have seen video of Israeli special forces snipers picking off people running across the field that bordered a camp. One by one without warning men and boys and even women were dropped by a single shot to the chest or head by a very accurate sniper. It was shot in starlight and makes you wonder...The U.S. media rarely plays this kind of thing, but you can read credible and accurate discriptions in the Palestinian news, now they are bias of course, but the substance of the articles is clear to me.
Has anyone seen video tape of palestinians crushed in bulldozer attacks in villiages. I mean these people are not warned first, some are invalid or mothers with infants, beneath the rolling tonnage of armoured vehicles as the Israeli Army rolls through. The Israelies are accurate, deadly and efficient for the most part so don't be surprised by a lack of pity. To many Israeli's, palestinians are no better than animals, it's unfortunate for the children that must live there, Israeli or Palestinian..
I know this option is not on the list, but I would like to rescue the children of palestine and israel caught between the automatic weapons and suicide bombers, and bring them to the united states where they could learn some tolerance and embrace a broader culture. And when the killing is all over, and the survivors no longer have the will to fight, bring the children back and rebuild the country..
I know it is unrealistic but worth a try...maybe someday.

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Dom

If Israel wasn't an American ally, would anyone care what goes on in that region?

Falstaff

a small country, formed by zionists from other countries after the second world war, opposing the british and the indigenous palestinians, then pushing them out, with european and american support, defeating their enemies, again and again, always raising the bar a little, pushing a little harder, ignoring the U.N. There just isn't anyway the world can ignore israel or palestine. What happens in that region affects the world in many ways, it can not be ignored or denied and it is a political thorn in our side as well..

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JavaFox

Most likely not. But that doesn't mean it's not significant

Dom

America goes through a lot crap because Israel is an ally.

Allies are supposed to help each other in some way.

Americans got mad because France vetoed the war on Iraq, because as allies they should always be there, but they weren't.

What I want to know is; what does Israel do for America, and is what they do wroth the consequences?

GOG

JavaFox

Well, firstly France didn't veto a war on Iraq. The war was conducted under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter, authorized by Resolution 1441, which was unanimously passed. The problem with the French, and to much the same extent the Germans, was not so much that they disagreed with us (Japan disagrees with the US on a slew of issues, but no one would say that they are not allies), but that they seemed to take a delight in publically putting us down. Simple disagreement is fine, really. Friends disagree. But when you consistently move to block your friend's efforts (this is much bigger than Iraq as far as France in concerned), when you cannot keep your criticism private (as friends do), exactly how are you a good friend? Simply put, you are not, and while we will remain friendly towards France, I for one would not be surpised to see France put in the same category of ally as Iceland.

Well, to a huge extent, your question about "what good is Israel as a friend?" is a very important one, because the answer isn't really so clear. At first glance, one might be tempted that Israel as an ally does the US no good at all. But this is not really the case. Firstly, we are economic partners. Israel is an economic advanced nations, and the US, which buys almost half of Israel's exports, is that country's foremost trading partner. But, there is a lot of strategic advantage in being Israel's friend.

Believe it or not, Israel has a stabilizing effect on the Middle East. I for one believe that if so many Arab states were not united in their hatred/opposition of Israel, they'd probably be fighting amonst themselves. This is not the primary reason we are friends, but it is certainly a reason, I would think.

Though it is a weak and relatively small reason, I do believe that we are friends with Israel because of America's Christian heritage. We are, for the most part, a Christian nation, and I think many people, as Christians, believe that Israel is indeed the Promised Land, where the Israelis are God's chosen people. Again, I don't think this ia major reason, but I think it is worth noting.

But, finally, Israel is important because of Mossad. Israel has a security apparatus that rivals our CIA and England's MI6. The importance of our trade in intelligence, especially in a region that, by and large, views us as their enemy, cannot be understated. This the most important and primary reason Israel is an important ally.

Dom

When you say; "by and large", what exactly do you mean?

JavaFox

Oh, hehe, sorry. "By and large" is just an annoying way of saying "for the most part" or "generally speaking."

Dom

Well, yes, but what are you reffering to exactly? All Arab nations or just the ones surrounding Israel?

JavaFox

I meant, generally speaking, peoples in that region. We have some friendly governments (Turkey, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, etc.) in that region, but we also have many unfriendly ones (Iran, formerly Iraq, Syria, etc) as well as huge pockets of people that dislike us.

Dom

How do you know most of them hate the US?

I mean, how can you truly know the feelings of anyone about anything?

Basicly, I just think it's a wrong thing to say.

I could say most Americans like English people, but how do I know, how does anyone?

And, I mean, thats just a country, not, basicly, an etire race of people.

JavaFox

I don't see a point in having this discussion; it seems like disagreement for the sake of disagreement. It almost goes without saying that the US is, generally speaking, disliked in the Middle East, but since you doubt conventional wisdom, here are the results of a worldwide poll:

In Turkey, favorable opinions of the United States dropped from 52 percent in 2000 to 30 percent now. In Pakistan, the United States is viewed favorably today by only 10 percent, down from 23 percent two years ago. Only 6 percent of Egyptians now hold a favorable view of the United States.

Further, having looked at the poll results in their entirety, I found the following quote:

People in most predominantly Muslim countries remain overwhelmingly opposed to the U.S., and in several cases these negative feelings have increased dramatically. [...]

Just 15% of Turks have positive feelings toward the U.S. [...] Anti-U.S. sentiment is virtually unanimous in Jordan and the Palestinian Authority (99% and 98% unfavorable, respectively). The intensity of this opinion is striking. More than eight-in-ten Palestinians (85%) and Jordanians (83%) say they feel very unfavorably toward the U.S., far more than any other public.

Dom

In Iraq, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Saddam have people follow reporters around to make sure Iraqi civilians didn't spread any Anti-Saddam sentiment?

So, how were these polls cunducted?

How are we to know these people weren't persuade to vote a certain way?

As Florida has proven, not even American presidental votes are safe.

And, Java, I'm not disagreeing for the sake of it, I'm doing it because you've yet to convince me not to.

JavaFox

Yes, they were called Minders. But in my last post, I didn't mention Iraqi sentiment.

So let's analyze what I did say.

Turkey - Only 30% of people have favorable views of America.
Pakistan - Only 30% of people have favorable views of America
Egypt - Only 30% of people have favorable views of America

These three countires all have governments that are friendly to the United States. Turkey is a moderate Muslim nation that has consistently helped the US in its efforts. Though they did block US efforts to conduct war from within their borders this time, most of the bombers in the original Gulf War took off from Turkey. Pakistan emerged as a US-friend after 9-11, and the Musharraf regime has done his best to show the US (whether by punishing Muslim extremists or catching al-Qaeda figures like Khalik Sheik Mohammed) that he's on our side. Egypt is second only to Israel as far as US aid in the Middle East goes. We give Egypt lots of money, and in turn, their regime is semi-dictatorial in its prosecution of Muslim extremism, and has banned religious parties in the government.

So all three nations are, ostensibly, US allies. So, if your concern is true --that the governments persuade their subjects to answer survey questions a certain way-- why then do we see high levels of anti-US sentiment in nations that have US-friendly governments?

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Just 15% of Turks have positive feelings toward the U.S.
Anti-U.S. sentiment is virtually unanimous in Jordan

Again, Turkey is, by and large, a US ally, and it is far from being an oppresive dictatorship. How then can you explain that 85% of Turks have negative feelings towards the US, when their government does not?

I find it almost impossible to believe that the polls in Jordan were "skewed" by their government. Jordan is perhaps one of the most liberal governments in the Middle East. It is far from being a full-blown democracy (I have heard even Jordanian officials say those exact words), but it has taken perhaps more steps than any other nation in the Middle East, save Israel. Jordan has had parlimentary elections, and has one of the freest presses in the region. It has signed a peace agreement with Israel. Furthermore, this is a nation that has had an AMERICAN Queen. Hardly an anti-American government, I would say. In fact, it is hardly the type of government that would strong-arm its citizens into responding in an anti-American manner to a poll, wouldn't you say?

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How then can you explain the poll results? Are they just lies? Does the Middle East, in reality, actually LOVE America?

I think not.

Dom

Heh, well, I didn't say I think the mid-east loves America, in fact they probably do hate America, I just was mearly saying you can truly never know what other people think.

I hate the Yankees, but I'm not prepeared to strap explosives to my chest and go to Yankee Stadium and blow myself up.

JavaFox

Fair enough. The extent that we can know is only what we can find out through polling, but I personally think it is pretty safe to say that much of Middle East hates us, just like I can say with a pretty high degree of certainty that most people in Japan are categorically against war. But, yes, in a sense, you are correct, it is difficult to know these things with any kind of certainty, but, like I said, somethings are just safe to say.

But back to the original point of bringing all this up, I've got a friendly question. Do you deny that it is in the US' interests to get information from Mossad, one of the best intelligence agencies in the world, in a region that is, most people would agree, anti-American?

Dom

Anti-American region, Pro-American state.

I don't know anything about Mossad, so I really can't say how powerful they are, but, I trust it is.

JavaFox

Well, if you're interested, the FAS website is (as always) a good place to start.

On a totally unrelated note, what the HELL is up with MI6's logo?

Dom

Could of made something better with MS Paint.