How are things in Iraq ?

Smoothdrive · Jun 23, 2003, 10:49 AM

Don't know how the news is covered in the US..but here the news we get from Iraq is worrying..

We see how peace observers are treated like the enemy by US soldiers telling them to "f##k off with their camera's"

Iraqi people hate the Americans now..they have even less now than before the liberation. They had order and food, now they have chaos and food shortage or as they say it "Iraq is ruled by Ali Bush and the 40 thieves".

And of course no WMD's have been found..

I'm really starting to wonder what on earth the US is still doing there..there are no results known to me other than overthrowing Saddam. Why not get out of there and let the UN or the Iraqi's themselve do their job in rebuilding Iraq ? the US does not seem interested in rebuilding Iraq

I'm starting to feel betrayed by the US..i supported the attack but i am starting to feel now that perhaps they are a bigger evil for Iraq than Saddam was...so i can only imagine how the Iraqi's must feel..beeing glad to be rid of Saddam thinking the future looks bright..and than be occupied by the US who don't do a thing to improve Iraqi everyday life.

Of course i could well be missing some info..how do you guys see it ?

JavaFox · Jun 23, 2003, 11:30 AM

There is a story in the Bible where Jesus tells his followers not to simply pray for people when they are in need. He asks them "Do you give your son a snake when he asks for bread?" In the same way, while I think in one sense the Iraqis are better off now that they have some semblance of political freedom (did you see protests in Saddam's Iraq? I think not), that is not all they need. They need real infrastructure, water, electricity, and security.

The US must provide these things. Not only morally and ethically, but legally -- as Occupying Forces have distinct responsibilities under the Geneva Convention.

Part of the problem is that most of the American troops there are occupied. It is a little known fact that most of the troops in Iraq are looking for WMD, and there is a shortage of men to handle security affairs. Obviously a problem. I think that this is partially the US' fault, but the international community also bears some responsibility. If there were not incessant calls to provide proof of WMD, more troops would be freed up to adminstrate Iraq.

I do not want the UN to admistrate Iraq. This sort of thing is best handled unilaterally. The UN may be able to provide humanitarian aid, but as an administrative body it is too large and too efficient to meet the needs of Iraq. The UN is good for working out peaceful matters, like the International Driver's Permit program, but, to be a little coarse, they suck on matters of importance. When has the UN ever succesfully handled a peace-making mission?

That said, Smoothdrive, I am glad you supported the war, but you must realize that major tasks like rebuilding nations take time. I think you are right to an extent -- the US has not been as successful as it should be. But on the other hand, we have also made some progress. News tends to focus more on the bad than the good (if you read the US military's Stars and Stripes paper, you'll definitely get a different perspective). The point here is not to say that whatever media you are watching is WRONG, but more along the lines that it may not tell you everything, just like the Stars and Stripes may not tell you everything. The truth, most likely, lies somewhere in between.

I have remarked before that I do not think anybody can accurately say that the Iraqis hate us, but only that SOME Iraqis hate us. To suggest otherwise is to engage in little more than speculation. Even if a million Iraqis protested our presense tomorrow, one could still not say that the Iraqis hate us, simply because it is a nation of some 20,000,000.

A lot of it is just perspective. I agree with you on some levels. The US should be doing better. But I also think that they will fix things, given time.

Falstaff · Jun 23, 2003, 01:00 PM

When Saddam was in power, there was for better or for worse, a unifying force in IRAQ. Everyone remotely attached to the Ba-athist party towed the line, and anyone with a heavy weapon was in some way attached to a militia or paramilitary unit. Saddam created a huge infrastructure of civil servants that depended wholly on an income generated by his government. Saddam tolerated criminal activity to the extent that warlords and tribal chieftens were kept in check and still exercised some control in towns and some cities that supported him. Now he is gone, and those dependent upon his government for a paycheck are lining up in the streets ready to throw rocks and fire weapons. His armies, disenfranchised after they were dissovled, are hungry and looking for food, after a humiliating defeat, they are ready to rise up. A paradox exists. The very people they liberated are becoming desperate for food, water and power and livelyhood.
Tribal chieftens want their power back, families want revenge against other families, Thieves still control the streets of many towns. Muslims grasp for power.
This was the IRAQ before Hussien.
IRAQ is a country created by Europeans, and this is the legacy I suppose.
I see this getting much worse and wish we would increase our presence in IRAQ, and the French and Germans are doing the "I told you so dance". Personally I wish we would have created a force that worked in conjunction with the coalition to keep the peace. Such a force would free up the units that are vulnerable now.
I blame the lack of success on Donald Rumsfeld. this will be his Vietnam if we are not careful, even if we found hordes of WMD, it was the most important pretext for invasion, we wanted Saddam out of IRAQ. I personally care less whether any are found, clearly they have been buried or spirited away prior to the invasion. I just want to see Hussiens DNA evidence.

Smoothdrive · Jun 23, 2003, 02:12 PM

Saw a Dutch peace observer who just returned from Iraq, he said that everyone in Iraq hated him untill he told them he was not American. Iraqi's hate Americans allright according to that source.

Forget the WMD's forget Saddam..build the country. That's the best way to get a friend instead of an enemy in the new Iraq.

Or am i mistaking in thinking that aid will build a strong friendship ? Sure the Iraqi's are hostile against the US troops..they don't have any reason not to be and plenty to be...give them a reason, win their friendship..especially in the middle east we don't need more anti-US feelings. Iraq could have been the shining example of a modern Arabic country ..now it's heading straight for the anti-western religious extremist corner.

I don't blame anyone..it's pointless to look for someone to blame when you should be looking for solutions

Falstaff · Jun 24, 2003, 01:29 AM

you never give anything away for free, unless you want something in return, The IRAQI people have been told before and after the war that we just want the oil and don't give a fly rat's fanny about the people...not much has changed, winning hearts and minds is tougher now than during the vietnam war..

Smoothdrive · Jun 24, 2003, 08:01 AM

You did give away millions in bombs and rockets..be it express delivery and no return to sender option.
But a cynical man would say that's just to finally test those expensive weapons for real..first gulf war did wonders for the patriots and precision bombing methods.

Well i am disisapointed so far..i really tought this war would help the iraqi's..silly me

So is the US only an invader, occupying Iraq to steal it's oil ? Were Germany and France right all along ?

Haven't seen one single US action that proofs them wrong.

JavaFox · Jun 24, 2003, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smoothdrive
You did give away millions in bombs and rockets..be it express delivery and no return to sender option.
But a cynical man would say that's just to finally test those expensive weapons for real..first gulf war did wonders for the patriots and precision bombing methods.

That may have some validity, although we can test bombs on our own soil just as easily. The first Gulf War was about pushing back an invader, about oil, and about protecting our allies.

Quote:

Well i am disisapointed so far..i really tought this war would help the iraqi's..silly me
So is the US only an invader, occupying Iraq to steal it's oil ? Were Germany and France right all along ?
Haven't seen one single US action that proofs them wrong.

You are in a part of the world that is, by and large, hostile to the British/American war. What do you expect? Do you expect your nightly news to serve up all the stories of success? You can argue that America is not doing enough good, but to argue that we are doing no good? I think that's hard to believe. Did we not topple a brutal regime? That isn't good? Have we not cared for Iraqi POWs? Are we not laboring to get electricity and water restored? Aren't we trying to clean up nuclear waste in the country? What about the reports that say, in response to kidnappings, American troops are being sent to schools to protect the girls?

Is that all fake?

It is because we are evil that we used $1.4 million a pop Tomahawks instead of $40,000 Daisy Cutters capable of wide-scale damage?

**Roadee** · Jun 24, 2003, 09:08 AM

It is starting to become clear to me that the only people who even slightly understand American's......are in fact....American's. It is too bad these people can't see there own history from being blinded by hate and mistrust. No one's heritage is without blemish. War sux......been there done that. But from the way I see it reading comment's on this site and other's......The US is doomed for failure in the eye's of the world. If we stay and do our mission to get them back on track as an independant country/people.......only the bad will be remembered by the world in general. If we pull out.......we will be considered weak and our actions will be considered a crime in the eye's of the world. If we let the UN take over on the clean up/re building.......anything that goes wrong will be blamed on the US anyway......just because we started it.

It is times likes these that I am proud to be a Gulf War Veteran, because I had the desire to protect other's from the evil's that lay abroad, to protect those that couldn't or wouldn't protect themselve's. When I was there it was the world against Saddam. Now in this war, it seems to be the arm chair warriors against the US......and it looks like we are out numbered. If someone wants to hate Bush or Rumsfeld or even the US government as a whole......fine with me.....it's your choice. But the soldier's on the ground are there doing a job. They signed up to protect the US and it's Allie's at the ultimate price, to criticize them is not right, they are doing the best they can, they don't have the option to choose who there boss is, only there country and there desire to protect it. I have friends and family in country right now, I hope they are able to remain as safe as the people they are trying to protect.

Propaganda is making a bad situation worse. That is the only TRUE thing that is happening in Iraq.

row · Jun 25, 2003, 02:45 AM

smoothdrive,
i would consider the source of your news, my sources which are actual ground forces stationed in iraq have a completely different take on the present situation than the one you present.

fallang_jeff
you must be on crack.

peace
row

ps: sorry, i take it back, your both on crack.

Falstaff · Jun 25, 2003, 03:11 AM

Quote:

fallang_jeff
you must be on crack.

nope....as far as sources, my brother is a U.S. army major stationed in IRAQ....they are pretty damn good.

I have stood in IRAQI soil...smelled burning fuel and human flesh..
tasted the sweat of fear and anger, and enjoyed the tender kiss of a cool wind while standing in yellow sand...

The only crack I know is the one that fills up with sand when you sit in one spot too long...

right now we better bring in a sizeble force into IRAQ and sqaush the bad guys or we are gonna bite on one huge excrement sandwich and even Rumsfeld can't spin this one off..

Smoothdrive · Jun 25, 2003, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JavaFox
That may have some validity, although we can test bombs on our own soil just as easily. The first Gulf War was about pushing back an invader, about oil, and about protecting our allies.

You can argue that America is not doing enough good, but to argue that we are doing no good? I think that's hard to believe. Did we not topple a brutal regime? That isn't good? Have we not cared for Iraqi POWs? Are we not laboring to get electricity and water restored? Aren't we trying to clean up nuclear waste in the country?

Well Yes you can test your weapons on your own soil but you can't clear the budget for large scale testing..war is the perfect excuse to invest in weapons testing.

Caring for Iraqi POW is not aspecially good, it's normal, you are required to do so. Labouring to get electricity up and running..well you've blown it down yoursleve so it's not that noble. same goes for nuclear waste..you've thrown it there yourselves..so it's good you do those things but nothing worth a compliment or even mentioning..it's common sense it should be done.

I don't think the US is evil, i just think they're doing a bad job in Iraq after the war. And i'm questionong why.

At this point in time there is not one single argument in favour of the war that actually stands..

No WMD's found, No better life for the Iraqi's.

As far as the veryday Iraqi is concerned they had a better life before the war than now.. I can't see why that is not the first concern of the US..can't think of any better propaganda than building Iraq.

Smoothdrive · Jun 25, 2003, 09:27 AM

Jeff you should be a poet the way you talk about the worst situation a man can be in.

I think we all can agree there is no poetry in war, Hollywood should stop making war look cool and so should the eye witnesses IMO.

On a lighter note..US soldiers played a soccer match against the Iraqi champions..US lost badly of course but took it well in, the Iraqi's got on a high horse making comments like "they are beginners" ..that did make the news here

JavaFox · Jun 25, 2003, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smoothdrive
Jeff you should be a poet the way you talk about the worst situation a man can be in.

I think we all can agree there is no poetry in war, Hollywood should stop making war look cool and so should the eye witnesses IMO.

Oh, no, man, not true! Well, I know what you mean, but some of our best poetry is from the World Wars. Soldiers are always articulate and insightful, even when they do not intend to be. Have you ever seen History Channel's "Color of War"?

At any rate, I think Hollywood is, by and large, done with glorifying war. From Saving Private Ryan to Black Hawk Down, we have seen bitter, gritty, horrifying portrayals of war. That's how it should stay.

Smoothdrive · Jun 25, 2003, 10:11 AM

We still see the hero survive, we just see the sidekicks and unknowns die bloodier and more horrific than before..John Wayne still never dies.

Haven't seen black hawk down or we were soldiers yet..

Now what you mean regarding poetry & war..man on the battlefield are reduced to nothing just hoping and praying to see another day and therfore speak straight from the heart easier perhaps..the commanders & intel people are just romantisising things to clear there own conscience.

Butthat is just my view..could well be wrong

Logla · Jun 25, 2003, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smoothdrive
Jeff you should be a poet the way you talk about the worst situation a man can be in.

I think we all can agree there is no poetry in war, Hollywood should stop making war look cool and so should the eye witnesses IMO.

If Hollywood should stop glorifying war, then shouldn't the software houses also. There are many of us who enjoy nothing more than to partake in virtual war on our computers and consoles, Medal of Honour, RTCW, Battlefield 1942. At the end of the day, virtual or otherwise.

Yet more of our troops lost their lives lastnight doing what they believe to be just and right. I would expect everyone would spare a thought for the families of those who died and those who were injured.

Smoothdrive · Jun 25, 2003, 01:14 PM

Well i am sorry but it didn't make the tv-news here this morning..what happenend last night than ?

Logla · Jun 25, 2003, 03:01 PM

6 British troops killed and 8 more injured in an attack by remnant iraqi forces loyal to Saddam.

Falstaff · Jun 26, 2003, 01:53 AM

I know this may be out of character for someone that has launched missles and ordinance at IRAQ. But I have deep respect for a man who will face the formidible power of the coaltion forces, armed with one RPG and 200 hundred AK47 rounds and an old machine gun. This man will run a quarter of a mile into hostile fire, sending geysers of sand and broken rock around him, never taking cover, clothing soaked with sweat he carefully drops to one knee as tracers illuminate him within yards of american positions, You can see him almost talking calmly to Allah, almost read his lips as he speaks to his higher power and marvel as reaches the moment of truth, how he fires his single rocket into armoured vehicles and then watch as he stands and inspects the fall of his shot, again while tracers claw into the ground around him and yet he stands...the whites of his eyes momentarily glow and then he falls, as his head explodes and as he sinks to the earth, his machine gun spurts out flame and rounds and the weapon is held in a death grip until the magazine is exhausted.
This is a warrior, this is bravery, this is a hero for his country, and this is a casualty. I stand mute, and wonder what kind of courage it would take to do this, the conviction, the desire for self sacrifice.....this was our foe, and this was just a man.
Like a brave Samurai, this IRAQI knew the odds, and yet he still came forward, never hesitating, and he died, he found his destiny and earned my respect, and perhaps many others.
We admonish the cowards and the terrorists, but the brave men of IRAQ are lying in desert graves, the brave men of IRAQ have been crushed against the overwhelming forces sent to destroy the IRAQI military. The brave men of IRAQ are no more, where are the brave men of IRAQ now, who will fight for peace?
Who will be brave for IRAQ now, who will rise above the raped earth and disemboweled infrastructure and become the leaders of a new IRAQ, it must be men with the same courage as the man who would stand against the mightiest force on the face of the planet and take his one shot.
At this time all I see are cowards and thieves in IRAQ, I would welcome any IRAQI capable of sustaining a sincere effort towards peace and political power, I would welcome any IRAQI capable of bring IRAQ back together again and shedding the old Ba-athist party ways.
I learned to be spiritual after my experiences, I learned that I have a soul, and that behind the weapons and the uniforms we all die the same way, and we all suffer the same way.
I pray for the children of IRAQ who inherit the ravaged land, and I hope that a new Saddam Hussien will not rise from this terrible vacumn of power where thieves and thugs rule.

Smoothdrive · Jun 26, 2003, 08:03 AM

May sound silly Jeff..but you really should be a poet..or perhaps you secretely are already

I'm too much down to earth to go along with your view on the Iraqi soldier..probably his family was held hostage and they would be killed if his mission failed..he was talking to himself in anger because he did not have a chnage but do his best to save his family..knowing that if he suceeded his family would be safe and they would be well taken care of if he himself died.

Still it's hard to comprehend a man walking to his dead knowing and willing..whatever his motivation. Strangely enough i do see the link to the Terrorists that the US is so much after at the moment..what's the difference between your Iraqi soldier and a suicide bomber ? both give their life to bring a blow to the enemy. Are both heroes ?

Falstaff · Jun 26, 2003, 08:55 AM

they are. for their beliefs they are. I don't think it is fanaticism. they earnestly believe that the west are devils and corrupters, they are willing to die for this. I mean they achieve a certain righteousness when they sacrifice themselves. I admire that...but it also scares the hell out of me....that is what we are facing...Why can't they turn that kindof courage around on themselves and face the real enemy within.....that is a tough question.

Smoothdrive · Jun 26, 2003, 10:14 AM

The truth is in the eye of the beholder..

They see the western world and the US in spefic as evil as we may see them. They may question and fail to comprhend why the US won't fight it's evil within.

Faced with a much better armed and larger in number opponent the strategy of accepting death and taking as many as you can of the enemy with you is a strong weapon. Especially morally..if your friends blow themselves up and take a large number of enemies with them that will enlarge the will to fight and the hate against the enemy.

It depresses me to know that both sides are convinced they are on the right side and just won't seek out any simularities in their goals..

Man will allways think he is superiour to the other side and they just either are evil or fail to see how righteous he is.

2 sides wanting peace (or claiming to do so) slaughter each other..where's the logic in that ?

In the end we'll never ecape the cavemen times..one tribe will allways fight amongst each other for leadership and of course fight every other tribe they encounter..millions of year of evolutions, great minds, great inventions..we still can not loose our aggresive dominant side. Having something is still never enough..more more more.

Smoothdrive · Jun 26, 2003, 10:18 AM

Sorry to hear about the brit troops..our goverment just aproved the despatch of Dutch troops to Iraq..we could well be confornted with dead Dutch soldiers soon..i bet that will turn public opinion against Iraq.

JavaFox · Jun 26, 2003, 10:33 AM

May God protect your country and your men, Smoothdrive.

Falstaff · Jun 26, 2003, 01:41 PM

This is turning into a police action....and it could get worse..

raid517 · Jul 14, 2003, 11:49 PM

Mmm... Iraq is pretty much turning into a shooting gallery, where every Arab in the world with a gripe to settle, takes a sebatacle from daily prayers to take potshots at American and British troops. Whatever way this ends, its going to look bad - and its going to look like we left (if and when we do leave) because we were getting our butts kicked.

Well I'm not normally one to say I told you so, but what the hey... I told you so.

The problem with this whole deal is that this administration came to power with an already pre-existing ideology and then they tried to make the facts (although in the end there turned out to be no facts) fit that ideolgy. It was a case of ideolgy over substance I think.

And do you think we will be thanked for this? I doubt it. Its clear that the longer we stay the more we are hated. I wonder how the oh so vocal and avid supporters of miltary action here feel now that they know finally and conclusively that this war was fought for nothing? "Oh but wait, its only a matter of time before it all gets better..." Really? Mmm... Well how about I take bets on that? If the objective was to turn Iraq into a strtegic alli in the region, its pretty clear that our govenments (particularly the US govenment) have f*cked up big time. That just isn't going to happen. So ultimately nothing has been gained, except a massive tax bill for everyone concerned for at least the next 10 years. Whoohoo, isn't that a great thing to look forward to?

It would almost be funny if people weren't dying every day as a result of our govenments blindness and arrogance.

Q

Falstaff · Jul 15, 2003, 04:13 AM

democracy isn't something that we can impose on anyone...especially a muslim country..

raid517 · Jul 15, 2003, 05:28 AM

They don't like us Jeff. They don't want what we've got.... Is that suddenly news to anyone around here?

Q

Falstaff · Jul 15, 2003, 05:35 AM

and the apology from the director of the CIA diminishes my confidence that future endeavors will be viewed as imperialistic overtures from America...that last place on earth that has that ambition...such irony

raid517 · Jul 15, 2003, 06:55 AM

Lol, its interesting Jeff how you seek to admonish the administration of any responsibility in this matter. But I guess that is where we must agree to differ. You blame the CIA, but I can point you to several articles (indeed I have done in the past) where the CIA as a whole and several active senior CIA operatives expressed grave concerns about how the intelligence they presented was being manupulated by the political elete. (Remember all those stories about senior CIA and UK MI6 operatives being extremely unhappy at the attempted politicisation of the secret services? As I recall - not that I mean to criticise you personally Jeff - you slated them at that time as being 'disloyal', for daring to question the word of their leaders).

As for 'imperialism' I don't think you really need to occupy a country (although that still is what we're doing) in order to behave in an imperialist way in the world. Afganistan and Iraq are both good examples of that now, where America is clearly saying to the world, 'tow the line, do what we want you to do, otherwise we may come and take your country off you.' Fortunately that isn't really practical in the longer term, as resistance is a very difficult thing to suppress. As you say, you can't impose democracy on people - and more than that, before you even think of doing that its pointless to even think of trying, unless the people your trying to impose democracy on, actually want you to be there. That isn't so obviously the case over these last two wars. What I find amazing is that all this seems to be such a surprise to the political right of America. I really think they did expect people would welcome them with open arms and throw flowers and candy in the path of wherever our troops walked. Why was this such a surprise to them, when it is anything but a surprise to virtually everyone else in the entire world? You almost get an impression that they gained their view of the world from some fantasy children's story book, where America and Americans were the beloved of this Earth, and all the peoples of the world only saw America as a force of good in their lives. I wonder... is this really how Americans see themselves? I'm British, but I don't fatasize about how well liked in the world we are. (Less so now after recent events). In our time we did some good in the world, but mostly we just served ourselves. And that is exactly what the rest of the world sees America doing now.

And you think its over in Afganistan yet? Nope... Not by a long shot, in Afganistan too American and British troops are still being shot and killed every single day of the week. It took the Afgans maybe 4 years before they were suitably mobilised enough to be able to kick the Russians out of their country. Things are still pretty nasty for the US/UK right now, so I think its pure fantasy (and dangerous fantasy at that) to imagine that in 4 years things will have improved.

Its all a mess really... And how I wonder do you fix it? I mean can you see any way out of this without it looking like we have to leave because everyone hates us and we keep getting our asses kicked? My bet would be to go for the quickest fudge possible, get the hell out of these areas and leave the lot of them to fight it out for themselves.

But now I hear that our troops could be in these regions for at least 10 years. No wonder most Americans want the UN to run the show now. Do you want to fork out the tax dollars to pay for all this? I'm no right winger, but I know I sure don't. Maybe for a year or so yes. But 10 years plus? Forget it...

I didn't want this war, why should I have to pay for the aftermath? My own country could do with spending a £ or two on itself.

Anyhoo, we all just have to live with it I guess. I wonder though if you will be so quick to wave your flag next time? Or will you do like many of us did here, and demand a higher standard of evidence before agreeing that action was required?

Q

Falstaff · Jul 15, 2003, 10:04 AM

Let the worms crawl out of the mud.....(during his coup)

Jun 23, 2003, 10:49 AM	#1
Smoothdrive Foolish Genius Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 455 Rep Power: 0	How are things in Iraq ? Don't know how the news is covered in the US..but here the news we get from Iraq is worrying.. We see how peace observers are treated like the enemy by US soldiers telling them to "f##k off with their camera's" Iraqi people hate the Americans now..they have even less now than before the liberation. They had order and food, now they have chaos and food shortage or as they say it "Iraq is ruled by Ali Bush and the 40 thieves". And of course no WMD's have been found.. I'm really starting to wonder what on earth the US is still doing there..there are no results known to me other than overthrowing Saddam. Why not get out of there and let the UN or the Iraqi's themselve do their job in rebuilding Iraq ? the US does not seem interested in rebuilding Iraq I'm starting to feel betrayed by the US..i supported the attack but i am starting to feel now that perhaps they are a bigger evil for Iraq than Saddam was...so i can only imagine how the Iraqi's must feel..beeing glad to be rid of Saddam thinking the future looks bright..and than be occupied by the US who don't do a thing to improve Iraqi everyday life. Of course i could well be missing some info..how do you guys see it ? __________________ GA-7VRXP, AMD2000+, 256MB PC-2700 DDR, Radeon 8500LE, 2x Maxtor 740 (40GB) stripe set, AGNeovo X-150.

Jun 23, 2003, 01:00 PM	#3
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	IRAQ after Hussien When Saddam was in power, there was for better or for worse, a unifying force in IRAQ. Everyone remotely attached to the Ba-athist party towed the line, and anyone with a heavy weapon was in some way attached to a militia or paramilitary unit. Saddam created a huge infrastructure of civil servants that depended wholly on an income generated by his government. Saddam tolerated criminal activity to the extent that warlords and tribal chieftens were kept in check and still exercised some control in towns and some cities that supported him. Now he is gone, and those dependent upon his government for a paycheck are lining up in the streets ready to throw rocks and fire weapons. His armies, disenfranchised after they were dissovled, are hungry and looking for food, after a humiliating defeat, they are ready to rise up. A paradox exists. The very people they liberated are becoming desperate for food, water and power and livelyhood. Tribal chieftens want their power back, families want revenge against other families, Thieves still control the streets of many towns. Muslims grasp for power. This was the IRAQ before Hussien. IRAQ is a country created by Europeans, and this is the legacy I suppose. I see this getting much worse and wish we would increase our presence in IRAQ, and the French and Germans are doing the "I told you so dance". Personally I wish we would have created a force that worked in conjunction with the coalition to keep the peace. Such a force would free up the units that are vulnerable now. I blame the lack of success on Donald Rumsfeld. this will be his Vietnam if we are not careful, even if we found hordes of WMD, it was the most important pretext for invasion, we wanted Saddam out of IRAQ. I personally care less whether any are found, clearly they have been buried or spirited away prior to the invasion. I just want to see Hussiens DNA evidence. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jun 23, 2003, 02:12 PM	Thread Starter #4
Smoothdrive Foolish Genius Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 455 Rep Power: 0	Saw a Dutch peace observer who just returned from Iraq, he said that everyone in Iraq hated him untill he told them he was not American. Iraqi's hate Americans allright according to that source. Forget the WMD's forget Saddam..build the country. That's the best way to get a friend instead of an enemy in the new Iraq. Or am i mistaking in thinking that aid will build a strong friendship ? Sure the Iraqi's are hostile against the US troops..they don't have any reason not to be and plenty to be...give them a reason, win their friendship..especially in the middle east we don't need more anti-US feelings. Iraq could have been the shining example of a modern Arabic country ..now it's heading straight for the anti-western religious extremist corner. I don't blame anyone..it's pointless to look for someone to blame when you should be looking for solutions __________________ GA-7VRXP, AMD2000+, 256MB PC-2700 DDR, Radeon 8500LE, 2x Maxtor 740 (40GB) stripe set, AGNeovo X-150.

Jun 24, 2003, 01:29 AM	#5
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Arabs you never give anything away for free, unless you want something in return, The IRAQI people have been told before and after the war that we just want the oil and don't give a fly rat's fanny about the people...not much has changed, winning hearts and minds is tougher now than during the vietnam war.. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jun 24, 2003, 08:01 AM	Thread Starter #6
Smoothdrive Foolish Genius Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 455 Rep Power: 0	You did give away millions in bombs and rockets..be it express delivery and no return to sender option. But a cynical man would say that's just to finally test those expensive weapons for real..first gulf war did wonders for the patriots and precision bombing methods. Well i am disisapointed so far..i really tought this war would help the iraqi's..silly me So is the US only an invader, occupying Iraq to steal it's oil ? Were Germany and France right all along ? Haven't seen one single US action that proofs them wrong. __________________ GA-7VRXP, AMD2000+, 256MB PC-2700 DDR, Radeon 8500LE, 2x Maxtor 740 (40GB) stripe set, AGNeovo X-150.

Jun 23, 2003, 11:30 AM	#2
JavaFox E Pluribus Unum Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,203 Rep Power: 0	There is a story in the Bible where Jesus tells his followers not to simply pray for people when they are in need. He asks them "Do you give your son a snake when he asks for bread?" In the same way, while I think in one sense the Iraqis are better off now that they have some semblance of political freedom (did you see protests in Saddam's Iraq? I think not), that is not all they need. They need real infrastructure, water, electricity, and security. The US must provide these things. Not only morally and ethically, but legally -- as Occupying Forces have distinct responsibilities under the Geneva Convention. Part of the problem is that most of the American troops there are occupied. It is a little known fact that most of the troops in Iraq are looking for WMD, and there is a shortage of men to handle security affairs. Obviously a problem. I think that this is partially the US' fault, but the international community also bears some responsibility. If there were not incessant calls to provide proof of WMD, more troops would be freed up to adminstrate Iraq. I do not want the UN to admistrate Iraq. This sort of thing is best handled unilaterally. The UN may be able to provide humanitarian aid, but as an administrative body it is too large and too efficient to meet the needs of Iraq. The UN is good for working out peaceful matters, like the International Driver's Permit program, but, to be a little coarse, they suck on matters of importance. When has the UN ever succesfully handled a peace-making mission? That said, Smoothdrive, I am glad you supported the war, but you must realize that major tasks like rebuilding nations take time. I think you are right to an extent -- the US has not been as successful as it should be. But on the other hand, we have also made some progress. News tends to focus more on the bad than the good (if you read the US military's Stars and Stripes paper, you'll definitely get a different perspective). The point here is not to say that whatever media you are watching is WRONG, but more along the lines that it may not tell you everything, just like the Stars and Stripes may not tell you everything. The truth, most likely, lies somewhere in between. I have remarked before that I do not think anybody can accurately say that the Iraqis hate us, but only that SOME Iraqis hate us. To suggest otherwise is to engage in little more than speculation. Even if a million Iraqis protested our presense tomorrow, one could still not say that the Iraqis hate us, simply because it is a nation of some 20,000,000. A lot of it is just perspective. I agree with you on some levels. The US should be doing better. But I also think that they will fix things, given time.

Jun 24, 2003, 09:08 AM	#8
Roadee Never forgotten Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Rest In peace, Joe. Posts: 2,198 Rep Power: 69	It is starting to become clear to me that the only people who even slightly understand American's......are in fact....American's. It is too bad these people can't see there own history from being blinded by hate and mistrust. No one's heritage is without blemish. War sux......been there done that. But from the way I see it reading comment's on this site and other's......The US is doomed for failure in the eye's of the world. If we stay and do our mission to get them back on track as an independant country/people.......only the bad will be remembered by the world in general. If we pull out.......we will be considered weak and our actions will be considered a crime in the eye's of the world. If we let the UN take over on the clean up/re building.......anything that goes wrong will be blamed on the US anyway......just because we started it. It is times likes these that I am proud to be a Gulf War Veteran, because I had the desire to protect other's from the evil's that lay abroad, to protect those that couldn't or wouldn't protect themselve's. When I was there it was the world against Saddam. Now in this war, it seems to be the arm chair warriors against the US......and it looks like we are out numbered. If someone wants to hate Bush or Rumsfeld or even the US government as a whole......fine with me.....it's your choice. But the soldier's on the ground are there doing a job. They signed up to protect the US and it's Allie's at the ultimate price, to criticize them is not right, they are doing the best they can, they don't have the option to choose who there boss is, only there country and there desire to protect it. I have friends and family in country right now, I hope they are able to remain as safe as the people they are trying to protect. Propaganda is making a bad situation worse. That is the only TRUE thing that is happening in Iraq. __________________ We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then things get worse.

Jun 25, 2003, 02:45 AM	#9
row DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: northern calif Posts: 85 Rep Power: 0	smoothdrive, i would consider the source of your news, my sources which are actual ground forces stationed in iraq have a completely different take on the present situation than the one you present. fallang_jeff you must be on crack. peace row ps: sorry, i take it back, your both on crack. __________________ [color=red]dysfunction:[/color] soyo dragon kt880 - antec 1080amg case - koolance exos liquid cooler - rev b xp 2700+ - corsair cmx512-3200c2pro x4 - wd se 80g x4 raid 0 - yamaha crw f1ze cd burner- sony dru 720a dvd burner - sony dru 510a dvd brnr - audigy 2zs plat - logitech z680's - ati aiw 9700 pro - ideazon crossfire kb - ms inteli 4.0 mse - view sonic a90f+ 19" monitor - antec tru480w psu - belkin 900va ups - xp home/sp2/dx 9.0 [color=palegreen]impulse:[/color] abit av8 mb - coolermaster wave case - coolermaster aerogate II thermal controller - coolermaster cooldrive hd hsf x2 - zalman reserator 1 liquid cooling - fx 53 - 4 gigs corsair twinx cmx1024-3200pt - wd 74g raptor x2 - plextor px712a dvd brnr - audigy 4 pro - klipsch pro media ultra 5.1- sony studio monitor headphone mdr700 - evga 6800 ultra - nec fe2111sb blk 22" monitor - ideazon doom3 kb - razer diamondback mse - coolergiant 480w psu - belkin 900va ups - xp home/sp2dx 9.0 [color=blue]fair and balanced posting[/color]

Jun 25, 2003, 09:27 AM	Thread Starter #12
Smoothdrive Foolish Genius Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 455 Rep Power: 0	Jeff you should be a poet the way you talk about the worst situation a man can be in. I think we all can agree there is no poetry in war, Hollywood should stop making war look cool and so should the eye witnesses IMO. On a lighter note..US soldiers played a soccer match against the Iraqi champions..US lost badly of course but took it well in, the Iraqi's got on a high horse making comments like "they are beginners" ..that did make the news here __________________ GA-7VRXP, AMD2000+, 256MB PC-2700 DDR, Radeon 8500LE, 2x Maxtor 740 (40GB) stripe set, AGNeovo X-150.

Jun 25, 2003, 10:11 AM	Thread Starter #14
Smoothdrive Foolish Genius Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 455 Rep Power: 0	We still see the hero survive, we just see the sidekicks and unknowns die bloodier and more horrific than before..John Wayne still never dies. Haven't seen black hawk down or we were soldiers yet.. Now what you mean regarding poetry & war..man on the battlefield are reduced to nothing just hoping and praying to see another day and therfore speak straight from the heart easier perhaps..the commanders & intel people are just romantisising things to clear there own conscience. Butthat is just my view..could well be wrong __________________ GA-7VRXP, AMD2000+, 256MB PC-2700 DDR, Radeon 8500LE, 2x Maxtor 740 (40GB) stripe set, AGNeovo X-150.

Jun 25, 2003, 01:14 PM	Thread Starter #16
Smoothdrive Foolish Genius Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 455 Rep Power: 0	Well i am sorry but it didn't make the tv-news here this morning..what happenend last night than ? __________________ GA-7VRXP, AMD2000+, 256MB PC-2700 DDR, Radeon 8500LE, 2x Maxtor 740 (40GB) stripe set, AGNeovo X-150.

Jun 25, 2003, 03:01 PM	#17
Logla HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 3,311 Rep Power: 0	6 British troops killed and 8 more injured in an attack by remnant iraqi forces loyal to Saddam.

Jun 26, 2003, 01:53 AM	#18
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Poetry and war... I know this may be out of character for someone that has launched missles and ordinance at IRAQ. But I have deep respect for a man who will face the formidible power of the coaltion forces, armed with one RPG and 200 hundred AK47 rounds and an old machine gun. This man will run a quarter of a mile into hostile fire, sending geysers of sand and broken rock around him, never taking cover, clothing soaked with sweat he carefully drops to one knee as tracers illuminate him within yards of american positions, You can see him almost talking calmly to Allah, almost read his lips as he speaks to his higher power and marvel as reaches the moment of truth, how he fires his single rocket into armoured vehicles and then watch as he stands and inspects the fall of his shot, again while tracers claw into the ground around him and yet he stands...the whites of his eyes momentarily glow and then he falls, as his head explodes and as he sinks to the earth, his machine gun spurts out flame and rounds and the weapon is held in a death grip until the magazine is exhausted. This is a warrior, this is bravery, this is a hero for his country, and this is a casualty. I stand mute, and wonder what kind of courage it would take to do this, the conviction, the desire for self sacrifice.....this was our foe, and this was just a man. Like a brave Samurai, this IRAQI knew the odds, and yet he still came forward, never hesitating, and he died, he found his destiny and earned my respect, and perhaps many others. We admonish the cowards and the terrorists, but the brave men of IRAQ are lying in desert graves, the brave men of IRAQ have been crushed against the overwhelming forces sent to destroy the IRAQI military. The brave men of IRAQ are no more, where are the brave men of IRAQ now, who will fight for peace? Who will be brave for IRAQ now, who will rise above the raped earth and disemboweled infrastructure and become the leaders of a new IRAQ, it must be men with the same courage as the man who would stand against the mightiest force on the face of the planet and take his one shot. At this time all I see are cowards and thieves in IRAQ, I would welcome any IRAQI capable of sustaining a sincere effort towards peace and political power, I would welcome any IRAQI capable of bring IRAQ back together again and shedding the old Ba-athist party ways. I learned to be spiritual after my experiences, I learned that I have a soul, and that behind the weapons and the uniforms we all die the same way, and we all suffer the same way. I pray for the children of IRAQ who inherit the ravaged land, and I hope that a new Saddam Hussien will not rise from this terrible vacumn of power where thieves and thugs rule. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jun 26, 2003, 08:03 AM	Thread Starter #19
Smoothdrive Foolish Genius Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 455 Rep Power: 0	May sound silly Jeff..but you really should be a poet..or perhaps you secretely are already I'm too much down to earth to go along with your view on the Iraqi soldier..probably his family was held hostage and they would be killed if his mission failed..he was talking to himself in anger because he did not have a chnage but do his best to save his family..knowing that if he suceeded his family would be safe and they would be well taken care of if he himself died. Still it's hard to comprehend a man walking to his dead knowing and willing..whatever his motivation. Strangely enough i do see the link to the Terrorists that the US is so much after at the moment..what's the difference between your Iraqi soldier and a suicide bomber ? both give their life to bring a blow to the enemy. Are both heroes ? __________________ GA-7VRXP, AMD2000+, 256MB PC-2700 DDR, Radeon 8500LE, 2x Maxtor 740 (40GB) stripe set, AGNeovo X-150.

Jun 26, 2003, 08:55 AM	#20
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	for their individual causes they are. for their beliefs they are. I don't think it is fanaticism. they earnestly believe that the west are devils and corrupters, they are willing to die for this. I mean they achieve a certain righteousness when they sacrifice themselves. I admire that...but it also scares the hell out of me....that is what we are facing...Why can't they turn that kindof courage around on themselves and face the real enemy within.....that is a tough question. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jun 26, 2003, 10:14 AM	Thread Starter #21
Smoothdrive Foolish Genius Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 455 Rep Power: 0	The truth is in the eye of the beholder.. They see the western world and the US in spefic as evil as we may see them. They may question and fail to comprhend why the US won't fight it's evil within. Faced with a much better armed and larger in number opponent the strategy of accepting death and taking as many as you can of the enemy with you is a strong weapon. Especially morally..if your friends blow themselves up and take a large number of enemies with them that will enlarge the will to fight and the hate against the enemy. It depresses me to know that both sides are convinced they are on the right side and just won't seek out any simularities in their goals.. Man will allways think he is superiour to the other side and they just either are evil or fail to see how righteous he is. 2 sides wanting peace (or claiming to do so) slaughter each other..where's the logic in that ? In the end we'll never ecape the cavemen times..one tribe will allways fight amongst each other for leadership and of course fight every other tribe they encounter..millions of year of evolutions, great minds, great inventions..we still can not loose our aggresive dominant side. Having something is still never enough..more more more. __________________ GA-7VRXP, AMD2000+, 256MB PC-2700 DDR, Radeon 8500LE, 2x Maxtor 740 (40GB) stripe set, AGNeovo X-150.

Jun 26, 2003, 10:18 AM	Thread Starter #22
Smoothdrive Foolish Genius Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 455 Rep Power: 0	Sorry to hear about the brit troops..our goverment just aproved the despatch of Dutch troops to Iraq..we could well be confornted with dead Dutch soldiers soon..i bet that will turn public opinion against Iraq. __________________ GA-7VRXP, AMD2000+, 256MB PC-2700 DDR, Radeon 8500LE, 2x Maxtor 740 (40GB) stripe set, AGNeovo X-150.

Jun 26, 2003, 10:33 AM	#23
JavaFox E Pluribus Unum Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,203 Rep Power: 0	May God protect your country and your men, Smoothdrive.

Jun 26, 2003, 01:41 PM	#24
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Yes.... This is turning into a police action....and it could get worse.. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jul 14, 2003, 11:49 PM	#25
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Mmm... Iraq is pretty much turning into a shooting gallery, where every Arab in the world with a gripe to settle, takes a sebatacle from daily prayers to take potshots at American and British troops. Whatever way this ends, its going to look bad - and its going to look like we left (if and when we do leave) because we were getting our butts kicked. Well I'm not normally one to say I told you so, but what the hey... I told you so. The problem with this whole deal is that this administration came to power with an already pre-existing ideology and then they tried to make the facts (although in the end there turned out to be no facts) fit that ideolgy. It was a case of ideolgy over substance I think. And do you think we will be thanked for this? I doubt it. Its clear that the longer we stay the more we are hated. I wonder how the oh so vocal and avid supporters of miltary action here feel now that they know finally and conclusively that this war was fought for nothing? "Oh but wait, its only a matter of time before it all gets better..." Really? Mmm... Well how about I take bets on that? If the objective was to turn Iraq into a strtegic alli in the region, its pretty clear that our govenments (particularly the US govenment) have fcked up big time. That just isn't going to happen. So ultimately nothing has been gained, except a massive tax bill for everyone concerned for at least the next 10 years. Whoohoo, isn't that a great thing to look forward to? It would almost be funny if people weren't dying every day as a result of our govenments blindness and arrogance. Q Last edited by raid517; Jul 15, 2003 at 05:31 AM.*

Jul 15, 2003, 04:13 AM	#26
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	what bugs me is democracy isn't something that we can impose on anyone...especially a muslim country.. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jul 15, 2003, 05:28 AM	#27
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	They don't like us Jeff. They don't want what we've got.... Is that suddenly news to anyone around here? Q

Jul 15, 2003, 05:35 AM	#28
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	bad info from the CIA and the apology from the director of the CIA diminishes my confidence that future endeavors will be viewed as imperialistic overtures from America...that last place on earth that has that ambition...such irony __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jul 15, 2003, 06:55 AM	#29
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Lol, its interesting Jeff how you seek to admonish the administration of any responsibility in this matter. But I guess that is where we must agree to differ. You blame the CIA, but I can point you to several articles (indeed I have done in the past) where the CIA as a whole and several active senior CIA operatives expressed grave concerns about how the intelligence they presented was being manupulated by the political elete. (Remember all those stories about senior CIA and UK MI6 operatives being extremely unhappy at the attempted politicisation of the secret services? As I recall - not that I mean to criticise you personally Jeff - you slated them at that time as being 'disloyal', for daring to question the word of their leaders). As for 'imperialism' I don't think you really need to occupy a country (although that still is what we're doing) in order to behave in an imperialist way in the world. Afganistan and Iraq are both good examples of that now, where America is clearly saying to the world, 'tow the line, do what we want you to do, otherwise we may come and take your country off you.' Fortunately that isn't really practical in the longer term, as resistance is a very difficult thing to suppress. As you say, you can't impose democracy on people - and more than that, before you even think of doing that its pointless to even think of trying, unless the people your trying to impose democracy on, actually want you to be there. That isn't so obviously the case over these last two wars. What I find amazing is that all this seems to be such a surprise to the political right of America. I really think they did expect people would welcome them with open arms and throw flowers and candy in the path of wherever our troops walked. Why was this such a surprise to them, when it is anything but a surprise to virtually everyone else in the entire world? You almost get an impression that they gained their view of the world from some fantasy children's story book, where America and Americans were the beloved of this Earth, and all the peoples of the world only saw America as a force of good in their lives. I wonder... is this really how Americans see themselves? I'm British, but I don't fatasize about how well liked in the world we are. (Less so now after recent events). In our time we did some good in the world, but mostly we just served ourselves. And that is exactly what the rest of the world sees America doing now. And you think its over in Afganistan yet? Nope... Not by a long shot, in Afganistan too American and British troops are still being shot and killed every single day of the week. It took the Afgans maybe 4 years before they were suitably mobilised enough to be able to kick the Russians out of their country. Things are still pretty nasty for the US/UK right now, so I think its pure fantasy (and dangerous fantasy at that) to imagine that in 4 years things will have improved. Its all a mess really... And how I wonder do you fix it? I mean can you see any way out of this without it looking like we have to leave because everyone hates us and we keep getting our asses kicked? My bet would be to go for the quickest fudge possible, get the hell out of these areas and leave the lot of them to fight it out for themselves. But now I hear that our troops could be in these regions for at least 10 years. No wonder most Americans want the UN to run the show now. Do you want to fork out the tax dollars to pay for all this? I'm no right winger, but I know I sure don't. Maybe for a year or so yes. But 10 years plus? Forget it... I didn't want this war, why should I have to pay for the aftermath? My own country could do with spending a £ or two on itself. Anyhoo, we all just have to live with it I guess. I wonder though if you will be so quick to wave your flag next time? Or will you do like many of us did here, and demand a higher standard of evidence before agreeing that action was required? Q Last edited by raid517; Jul 15, 2003 at 04:39 PM.

Jul 15, 2003, 10:04 AM	#30
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Emperor Claudius said: Let the worms crawl out of the mud.....(during his coup) __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."