Judas

The fact that you blindly and faithfully accept anything any person dubbed an "official" in any manner suggests the very problem.

You won't see any other alternative information, possibilities, problems, or anything at all beyond while you remain fixed on a narrow spectrum.

Can't trust officials when it's always been the official lieing straight to our faces day after day, year after year for mellenia.

I take everything with a grain of salt, EVERYTHING, and until i can prove it for myself using my own two eyes, my own two hands, and clearly make a real conclusion, everything else is just someone elses opinion biased or unbiased..... neutral or not...

I prefer to excersize my mind, not remain a robot, I don't want to be told what to think/beleive/know.

Considering that most of the things that we know isn't really known to be 100% fact.... theories have been developed and claimed to be known as fact...

I really don't have to keep repeating myself here.....

Either your walking around in your own reality in which you share with others that remained in this closed perception of the way things are, and are content with it and don't want to have it disturbed.....

or your open to anything and are truely aware of all of it...

Perhaps specific areas you are truely aware, and others your not. Not denieing that i still have a few things i'm having a hard time breaking the "counter think" paradox.

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Zelig

Something in the area of 90%+ of flu cases in North America now are H1N1 though, so a seasonal shot other than the H1N1 shot isn't particularly necessary.

A few points here:

The flu virus is a virus, not a bacteria.
Hand sanitizer has negligible effect on viruses. [edit: did some further research, not so clear-cut]
Regular soap works pretty much the same as anti-bacterial soap for cleaning hands of bacteria.


FWIW, I've got a roommate who is in generally great health and hates getting shots. He got H1N1 2 weeks ago, had it progress to pneumonia, and has been in the hospital for the past 5 days.

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Falstaff

Judas, I am beginning to lose my patience with you, I neither blindly endorse or follow anything, I simply work in the industry and know quite a bit more about the subject than you appear to.
You have different views or beliefs about something based on your own conclusions so your entitled to believe what you like, but the truth is bigger than a billboard sign in Las Vegas.
Judas, I work with medical professionals, have worked in the industry for over twenty years and have the data to back it up.
Your not talking to just one person Judas, I represent, like many other well informed people, a consensus of opinion and truth based on experience and fact.
If there is anyone here with a singular perception about the obvious it is anyone that ignores the truth.
I am not here to convince you, but if your going to canoe upstream intellectually then bring more than one paddle and keep them both in the water.

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Judas

nice statistic..

it's as accurate as the diagnoses that many doctors are giving patients..

They don't even take a blood sample, they just go by the "symptoms" that could be anything and have told them, you got h1n1, go home.

Brilliant methodology of diagnosing hey?

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Judas

I think your misinterpretting what i'm trying to say...

You could have 100 years of experience in the feild dealing with what your dealing with, being in the heart of it, working off what you've expeirenced/been told, or what is currently understood as fact.

I really don't care, that really doesn't prove anything to me, as in the past, it's no different then the earth being flat, the center of the universe, etc and so forth and the countless "scientists" and "FACTS" pertaining to it were obviously false, we look back on it and think "what idiots" ignoring the FACT that we still do the exact same thing today.

This isn't intended as being an insult to you or anyone specifically, just trying to make the point that we've been lied to countless times before, the media is a royal load of crap, news we see isn't totally the real deal, we are constantly abused with half truths or spin. And you HAVE to admit, that the amount of media coverage on just this single thing called H1N1 is utterly rediculious. We obviously differ on the necessity for vacinations which is fine... but it still doesn't make either of us right either.

We shouldn't be drilling into everyones heads GET IT, or DON'T GET IT. People need to get off their asses and do their own research on the matters and make an informed and educated decision. NOT be told or have to be told. That's the point i'm making. And they really aren't being told nowadays, they are being scared into submission. You plant the seed of fear into someone, and they WILL do anything you want provided that it sounds like it'll solve their problem and make the fear go away. This highly unethical, and we are being taken advantage of more and more every day through these rediculious schemes.

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Zelig

It takes seconds to verify the stat through Google.

For the week ending Oct. 31, a total of 7,970 specimens tested positive for influenza. Overall, 99.7 per cent were pandemic H1N1.

I fail to see how the non-specific diagnosing is a problem, since pretty much every disease with standard cold/flu symptoms has the same treatment... stay home and rest.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants." - Isaac Newton

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Falstaff

Judas, the last time I checked, for informed consenting adults it is still a choice whether you receive a vaccine or immunization. Children, with the permission and indulgence of parents or guardians will receive it as well.
I earnestly hope no one is attempting to force you to take a pill, a shot or accept anything that you do not approve of.
I do not personally believe that anyone is taking advantage of anyone vulnerable to diseases that can be prevented by good medicine and good advice.
Nothing is perfect, but I detect you have personalized your arguments so it makes further debate moot.
Believe what you want to believe and I hope your experience with modern medicine is transparent and beneficial.
If you were one of my young marines and you needed something to get back to the rear for surgery or treatment, I am sure you would not decline the help, but it sure seems as if the subtlety of medicine and everything associated with it seems to have a menacing affect on you. I hope you come to terms with what you need and sift out the rubbish, because we all do that to Judas...
be well.

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Optix

My post about hand sanitizer was simply trying to state that corporations are making millions off of media fear mongering by pumping out products that give folks a false sense of security however anti-bacterial soap has been clinically proven to help remove more bacteria than regular soap and when you are elbow deep in poo like I am that is important.

With regards to the H1N1 vaccinations as I mentioned before my wife, 6 month old son and I all had ours two weeks ago and we all feel great aside from a sore arm because I swear the lady who gave me the vaccination was digging for bone marrow.

Who is to say that you roommate contracted (or didn't contract) pneumonia because of the shot? Very rarely will they do testing on the cause of pneumonia instead opting simply to diagnose and treat it unless they are aware of a condition that increases the risk of developing it.

What I take as the truth in favor of the H1N1 vaccination may be just as full of holes as what you consider to be the reason why your roommate contracted pneumonia so hey, we may both be wrong but I do not see how you can say it was because of the vaccination without having any proof. Feel free to post some if you have it because I am always willing to learn and will certainly admit that I was wrong.

Judas, there has to be criteria for every decision that we make or opinion that we form so I am curious to know exactly where yours are coming from. It is none of my business and I may be going all Dr. Phil here but to me there seems to be something pretty deeply seated that makes you think that everything is a lie until you choose to accept it. I am also curious what causes you to accept what you do.

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Falstaff

Hand santizer is damn effective and useful.
Its an old old idea and it does the job of removing most if not all surface pathogens so why not use it when your working closely with users.

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Zelig

However, as far as I can tell, antibacterial soap has not been clinically linked to lower infection rates than regular soap.

Ah, you misunderstood me; my roommate did not get the H1N1 shot, and proceeded to get H1N1 and pneumonia, resulting in him being bedridden for a solid two weeks.

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Optix

Oops. Sorry. I have a tendancy of posting faster than my eyes can read sometimes.

I'll see what I can do about digging up some test results for normal soap vs. anti-bacterial soap. Hmm...normally I'm digging up test results for x piece of hardware vs. y piece of hardware.

**EDIT: Looks like you were right Zelig although some people seem to be split about whether or not antibacterial soaps work better. From what I have read they may not do a better job if not left on the skin for 2 minutes. Here I was thinking that singing happy birthday while lathering up was good enough. Looks like I'll have to sing the extended remix.

Just call me a sheep. Baaaaah!

The stuff we have now smells really good though... *sigh* Man, I'm getting old.

Back on an H1N1 related note, New Brunswick just had their first and second confirmed deaths from H1N1. Sorry Judas. I know that you don't feel the need to convince anybody since you believe what you believe (an admirable quality) but everything you post will be falling on deaf ears...uh, eyes.

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dawgXdenta

GlobalResearch.ca - Centre for Research on Globalization

THE H1N1 SWINE FLU PANDEMIC

LEARN MORE

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Today's world is of public opinion and the fates of nations are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be done. --- Osama bin Laden when relating how global media has the minds of the masses.
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dawgXdenta

Flu shots, learn more, don't remain ignorant

Do some research

VIDEO: Bell Tolling for the Swine Flu H1N1

http://vimeo.com/7298827

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Today's world is of public opinion and the fates of nations are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be done. --- Osama bin Laden when relating how global media has the minds of the masses.
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BlueMak

Judas the problem with your way of thinking is that you end up not believing anything and anyone, including the truth. You can't do that living in a society, cause it will lead to problems. If you base your decisions on fear mongering and conspiracy theories, you are no better than those you fight, only at the other end.

Also, please don't hit enter twice after every sentence. It's very annoying to read a huge block of text when there is an empty line after every line. Very annoying.

As I have said before, I will not take the flu vaccine. Mainly on principle and because I believe it is natural to get sick and I do believe in the what doesn't kill me will only make me stronger, at least for a few things. I also do not completely trust the speed with which the vaccine was prepared and tested. I do not like how even from the first day(s) of it appearing how all the major media were already talking about a vaccine and how soon it will be ready. It just didn't feel right. What about long term problems because of the vaccine? Your organism can either fight off the virus or die. If we all get the vaccine, how do we know the long term effects it might has on our bodies and the future generations? It just doesn't feel natural.

They say that young children are in major risk, and I do understand that. They are young, they didn't have the time to get sick. I do not know how I would deal with that if I had children. I don't mind risking my life, but, conspiracy or not, how can I accept to not give this to my kids?

Perhaps this whole thing is exactly what they say it is and nothing more or less. Perhaps I am being silly about it. How can I know? If they lied and the H1N1 is not that dangerous, if most people get the vaccine, they could easily claim that the reason it was so mild was the vaccine. Or perhaps the H1N1 vaccination is nothing but a psychological test for something else in the near future. They have managed to convince in a short amount of time the "whole" human population on the planet to take a drug. I mean, how good is that!!! That's power!

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

dawgXdenta

I'll need to see a big consensus by doctors who know what they are doing than the media and politicians telling me to take it, I'll have my dad who is an epidemiologist to look into it before I trust the media machine.

The same media machine that told us to go to "Iraq" yes Iraq to flush out Osama when Osama was Bush's Best buddy and they were having nice pixie fairy friendship a few days earlier

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Today's world is of public opinion and the fates of nations are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be done. --- Osama bin Laden when relating how global media has the minds of the masses.
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Optix

This is hardly a big consensus but my wife and son's doctor said don't bother however doctors of two of our friends said to do it and a friend of ours who is a doctor with her own successful practice said to do it so that was enough for me.

Majority rules.

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BlueMak

The results from the first day of vaccination in Greece for the H1N1 are back.
I feel quite proud of them.
In theory the first people to get it would be the medical personnel followed by the rest of the population depending on threat levels.
Although the head (minister) of the ministry of health was vaccinated on TV and the results were:
135 (one hundred and thirty five) total for the whole country! The head of the infectious disease department of one of the major hospitals in Athens even resigned to show how much he was against allowing the vaccination to even take place.
In another major hospital, out of 3000 doctors and nurse, only 60 went ahead and did it.

And that is although there are at least a couple of thousand extra cases of people getting sick with the flu every day.

The main reasons people don't get it are complete lack of trust for the vaccine itself, followed by lack of worry about the H1N1.

I am proud of us. (I am not going to do it either)

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

Optix

See, it's so hard for me not to go nutty and start freaking out at people who don't want to get the vaccination because they all have valid points. Even Judas.

While I may not understand all of the points those points are all valid to the individual but I still cannot wrap my head around why anybody would choose not to get the vaccination and possibly have something terrible happen.

Yes, there are always conspiracy theories but remember when people starting raising red flags about smoking and how it relates to cancer, breathing problems and a whole host of other ailments? Everybody thought the people who were campaigning against smoking were crazy until the test results started rolling in. H1N1 test results have been available for some time now and I would say the results are overwhelming.

I understand that it is an apples to oranges comparison but I think it illustrates my point quite well.

If anybody depends on you like your family I would say it is irresponsible not to roll up your sleeve and take a pinch for the team.

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BlueMak

Well, at least in this country, the population so far has chosen not only to talk the talk but also walk the walk. We will see.
I do not trust the vaccine and I do not fear the flu. Time will tell.

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

Optix

I can understand not wanting to trust a new vaccine but I would be pretty afraid to catch something that has been proven in some cases to be deadly.

In my opinion it would be far worse to do nothing and get it than to take the "approved" steps to guard against it and get it or have those steps cause problems. At least then you know that what happened was unavoidable or due to human error rather than ignorance or stubbornness.

On a completely off topic note, I will say how nice it is to be able to have debates like this without four letter words flying all over the place along with name calling like on some forums.

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Neshi

I am not taking the vaccine as well.. And about what you said, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. that is the truth. Nowadays people get shots for everything, take a drug for everything.. resulting in a lowering of the immune system, resulting in even more sickness..

I also think they want to test this drug worldwide on 2 groups. The children, and the old people..
Or this is all a test to see how easily they can get the populus to accept something for a fact... Want everybody to follow as sheep? tell them something they fear (illness which kills!!) and they will do what you say, even take a a drug that's not been properly tested..

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If one does not attach himself to people and desire, never shall his heart be broken. But then, does he ever truly live?

Life is just too damn short for if's and maybe's

Neshi

sorry about the double post.

I can't follow that mindset. There are people who got bloody sick because of the vaccin. But you have rather that, then the possibility to get H1N1. Even if you catch it, it isn't a 100% deathrate.. there are more people dieing of regular fever then of this 'pandemic', but I guess that's normal and not media attention worthy.

You will die anyway, wether you take the shot or not, so why all the fuss..

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If one does not attach himself to people and desire, never shall his heart be broken. But then, does he ever truly live?

Life is just too damn short for if's and maybe's

Judas

Governments, doctors, ect. and so forth for decades have recommended treatments, shit they recommended smoking itself to following your own mentioning of it, that has shown "initially" excellent results, and they have no problems promoting these "facts" with zero mention of long term affects. Or the fact that a "rare" few cases had bad results, call it the odd man out sydrome, specially when there are bucks to be made reguardless of the possible health concerns to follow.

While ones opinion is fine, i've no problem with people doing what they like. I think it's a bit in bad taste to suggest that reviewing the data, checking multiple sources be it official or not, getting written and voiced word from family doctors, doctors that reside in the very system that is promoting the use of the vaccine, doctors in many other fields that specialize in this very thing, thousands of them all saying "no, don't take it". Honestly, it's not all about the hype, conspiracy theories, etc and so forth, it's about making a realistic, educated decision on the matter.

I work closely with my father which is at an age that he would be highly suseptible to flus, and at a time where it would be the worse to get one, top it off i work for myself, and every day that i'm not open for business, specially right now durring the most busy period, can lose me hundreds of dollars in sales.

I think it's equaly irrisponcible to take the vacine for really no good reason, due to peer pressure, and mostly due to fear mongering, in a way playing russian roulet with your own well being with a single needle.

If my chances of getting ill and dieing from h1n1 is in the several dozen millions (more likely to win the lotto 649, be struck by lightning twice in the same place..etc. and so forth), vs increasing the risk of getting sick or dieing due to reciving the vacine or increasing my risk to getting very ill and having issues preventing/fighting illness in the future with a high probability then taking ones own chance. SPECIALLY where i live and my current state, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

I state once again,

I've never had a flu shot, vacine of any type, I rarely EVER get sick, I'm usually over a cold/flu within 24 hours, if it last more then that.. it's usually 3 days at most. And my entire family does the same thing, we are rarely sick, yet i know some family members (not emediate family) that frequently get vacinated and flu shots and are constantly ill, usually for weeks after receiving the shot. And when pressed with the question/statement making the suggestion that perhaps if they didn't take a their shots, they wouldn't have problems, and the ones that are open to thinking about it, either find it utterly intrigueing, and some of which actually HAVE tried not taking a shot and showing emediate signs of not getting sick.

ONCE again i'll state as well, I'm not suggesting that NO ONE SHOULD get this shot, ever..... i'd suggest anyone with obvious issues, where a vacine is really truely intended, such as people with immune system difficiency issues, or other similare issues be it specific illness that makes you more suseptible to dieing if caught, then it's still their own decision. That's what they should be made available to..

not mass sweeps across the entire population.

All they are doing is filling contracts and making their bucks they need, health concerns are besides the point, the underlings do the health concerns, the top guys that make the decisions couldn't give a rats ass.

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Freulein

i and all the doctors in my hospital vaccinated against H1N1.
there is in the moment no real danger to be infected by H1N1. but we have the chance to stop the disease before the virus became a real killer.
health concern have nothing to do with the moon landing, open your eyes, mind and mouth.

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Drinking Mates

Neshi

this has nothing to do with health concern, but instigated fear.

just compare numbers.
Worldwide, the annual death toll from the regular flu is estimated to be between 250,000 and 500,000.
This 'pandemic' has killed 6750 as of nov 20nd.
The lowest count of regular flu deaths (250k) results in 4807 deaths each week...

I've got nothing further to add..

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If one does not attach himself to people and desire, never shall his heart be broken. But then, does he ever truly live?

Life is just too damn short for if's and maybe's

Judas

And this is with inflated statistics....

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Optix

Again, tin foil helmets on.

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dawgXdenta

How did this thread get so long...

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Today's world is of public opinion and the fates of nations are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be done. --- Osama bin Laden when relating how global media has the minds of the masses.
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