Falstaff

I accept your point of you, but I don't necessarily agree with it, but to be honest, since you and blue left some time ago, things have been a little slow...I enjoy the english perspective, and find just as much popular dissent among english people as I do among americans, so in that respect we speak the same vernaculer with taxation without representation..

Bogus meaning that the ends don't seem to justify the means. Although I would have gone to IRAQ to remove Saddam Hussien with a 50 caliber sniper rifle, invasion wasn't my first choice, and I damn sure wouldn't have expected the IRAQI people to embrace american style democracy, they are content perhaps to live under a theocracy for some time to come..

Roadee, you just got to sit in an English pub or an Irish pub and you might see that much of the thrust of concern is not much different than Raid517, just the somantics are different...but the message is the same...

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Falstaff

do you remember a drone flying overhead taking pictures of the prisoners your unit captured?......came from my ship....USS MISSOURI

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raid517

Lol Jeff its true, if Roadee went to any English pub he would hear a lot more colourful language than anything I have ever used here. You got to know when to take some things on the chin and not be offended by them.

Anyhoo, I came back because I read a post here where someone asked how things were in Iraq at the moment. The answer is clearly not too good. I was also interested to hear what the views of those who supported the war were now, since as you say, 'the means were not shown to fully justify the ends.'

I think I've got a clearer picture of that now - and I do sense a somewhat different pespective. Views are shifting, people are no longer simply blindly trusting of everything their goverment says. If this is a part of the process of America getting back on a more realistic footing with itself and with the rest of the world - and an end to the fanatic patriotism that inspired this blind loyalty originally, then that is indeed progess. I think we are all old enough and mature enough to remember America in less parinoid and altogether freer times. Maybe it will take a few more incidents before Americans finally grow tierd of having all their freedoms erroded, but I do get a sense that the road to recovery may no longer be quite so far off. I hope in 20 years America can look back on this as a terrible time in her history and peace and prosperity will again become the primary interest of the American people. That is the America I remember - and it is still the America I care most for.

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Falstaff

either father or son in the Bush lineage, but I took an oath years ago to honor and obey, and defend all enemies both foriegn and domestic..soooo I never outgrew that...I embrace a sense of honor for all our fighting men and women and the work they do, that keeps me focused on them and not the politicians...afterall, politicians don't die in battle, brave men and women do....as well as the innocents..

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raid517

Well Jeff, as the saying goes, the military aren't paid to think, they are paid to do. I don't mean this a s a jibe at you, not at all. Overall its a good thing that the miltary don't think too much about what their told to do, as when the miliary does start to think, the end result is usually a dictatorship. The miltary did their bit, on that we can agree. But in this instance it is clearly the politicians who let them down.

There is no one shouting 'baby killers' on this side of the pond. Of that you can be assured.

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Falstaff

incredible success of the american military, a fascist regime would seem the most likely evolution of the United States government, or so I have heard...the truth is, there is enough of it going on around the world, for what it is worth, The USA can make some meaningful and positive changes where ever it goes, I just wish we didn't shove democracy down everyone throat

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raid517

Lol, thankfully we are several significant steps away from seeing an American dictatorship yet (although it would make a facinating premise for a book). I have faith that the ordinary American people will soon decide to draw the line and make a stand against the errosion of any more of their freedoms.

I also don't think Westerners fully understand that what we term as 'freedom' many muslim peoples of this Earth view as opressions. Why be free to murder, rape, indulge in drugs, crime, adultery, solicitation, prostetution, pornography, alchohol abuse, child abuse - and all the negative aspects of this so called concept of democracy? Really they would rather have a strict regime, even in the absence of democracy, than be confronted with the dilemas that too much freedom ocassionally brings. To a muslim morality is often more important than personal freedom. It is an ailien concept to many Westerners I know, but it does highlight how as you said, attempting to impose democracy on those who do not particularly value it (or us) can never really work.

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Falstaff

and the idea of a totalitarian regime hiding under the guise of democratic style government seemed so far fetched. But my experience with our governments security and internal workings of its secret service clearly points to a different type of government that is evolving. Much of the power is really in the hands of those that gather information and enforce security policies, that is why Rumsfeld and Tenet scare me.

less than a hundred years ago, our government condoned the use of violence against native americans to remove them from territories occupied by the expanding european settlers.

less than a hundred years ago, our government invaded a nieghboring country to look for one man and his renegade band without the expressed permission of the countries government.

less than a hundred years ago, our government attempted to completely erase the cultural identity of native americans by forcing their children to go to their schools and adopt christian ideals.

less than a hundred years ago, we invaded several countries and completely overwhelmed the population to remove their governments in power, simply to install a pro western style government..

less than a hundred years ago, we supported and financed governments that oppressed their native peoples, exploited the poor and the land.

less than a hundred years ago, the average american had no idea who was in power at the time and suffered economic hardships based on the policies of the very few that remained in power and the captians of industry dictated much of the economic policy of the USA...

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raid517

Well I'll leave it at that Jeff... Well said, definately very well said...

Particularly with your govenments plan to impliment their total information Awareness system. Basically this means that they will have a system capable of listening to every converstaion and recording every letter you type on your keyboard and send accross a wire. If that isn't big brother, I don't know what is.

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Falstaff

I see a government that is becoming something undefinable and nebulus, sort of dark and mysterious, and it scares me, but then, I might have really believed that what I read and what I saw on television was the america that I embraced when I lived in Europe as a boy....if our country survives another 100 years ago without change, we must evolve to suit the world. If Bush is serious, we also have to adapt to change to become the shining jewel of a nation that he speaks of....I divorce myself from instantly accepting any kind of rhetoric that seems to good to be true....
ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS....and so far I have mixed feelings in the matter of N. Korea and their struggle against the free nations of the world.

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Roadee

I spent 4 years in Europe.....I have been in the bars/pubs, have many friends over there, and my family is from Co. Tyrone N. Ireland.........nuff said on that subject.

1984 could become 2014 if things keep going in the direction that they are. History has shown......that with an "Empire" defeat may soon follow, everyone wants to be king of the hill, so there will alway's be someone there trying to knock you off the top......one rock at a time.

Jeff, with all the aircraft that I seen while I was in country, I couldn't really tell you for sure, but I did see drones over head. We supplied convoy security for the massive amount of captured Iraqi "troops", as well as escorted the Republican Gaurd back towards Baghdad, and set outside of town for 5 days watching them slaughter civilians in an uprising attempt.....I am sure you know where I am talking about. I was also just outside, and later IN a huge Republican Gaurd training base where we stock piled munnitions and blew them up....some what sloppy charge set's, I should add. The CIA seemed to of forgot about telling up about some Sarin Nerve Gas that was there in some rocket's......needless to say....my health is one of the statistic's up on the board. I was forced into retirement in early 98', seems that I was no longer "fit for service".

Speaking of Sniper rifles....I wish that is what they would of done. I built my own custom tactical/sniper off of a Savage 110 action, 7mm Remington Mag, 24" Bull barrel w/4" custom machined screw on muzzle break, Choate stock, 2 oz Sharp Shooter match trigger, Custom Shop Navy contract 8x-40x 56mm objective counter sniper scope (made for the 50 cal.). At 1000 meter's dont bother smiling.....

The millitary taught me alot, how to think under pressure, how to take order's.....and yet modify them as the mission dictate's. Though from what I see happening lately with our government......is a dictatorship really that far away? To many laws are being passed in the name of "freedom" that are taking our right's away.....even more so across the pond.

I wanted Hussein out of power, I felt a threat with him in power, I agree with us going over there and taking him out of power.....but now it is time to leave.....let the UN do the humanitarian thing and we can stay in the air and off shore to protection of the UN. We are stuck with that anyway.....the US and GB cover over 30% of the total yearly budget of the UN as it is anyway......and yet out of how many participant countries??

I feel that the UN is corrupt and the financial burden is not distributed evenly amongst it's member's. There isn't much that can stop our 2 countries from doing what it wants......and now Korea wants a chunck of the spotlight.......radical's are killing troops one by one in Iraq.....Afganistan is doing the same......Drugs are still flowing freely across our border's, it is still easy for illegal's to get into our country and we pay for there welfare when they get here.......I just think that we have enough problem's in our own country....people starving and living in the street's, farmer's going belly up, corruption at all level's, safety in our own street's at night, the trucking/shipping industry in turmoil, airlines that we can't ween from the bottle........it is time we do more in THIS country and allow/expect the other region's of the world to help clean up some of the mess this world is plowing into. In short......the UN need's a severe over haul and we need to get our country in better shape before we try to force our way of life on anyone.

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We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then things get worse.

raid517

Mmm... Well that old Saddam sure has a lot to answer for doesn't he? Lol Anyway I have to say that I don't believe all that stuff about corruption at the UN, you're just looking for someone to blame. Name one major corruption case that has emerged from the UN in the last 30 years. Conversly name 10 + corruption cases that have emerged from the US govenment in the last 30 years. Which task do you think you will find easier? The point is, if your looking for corruption, if your looking for people to blame I am pretty sure you're looking in the wrong direction.

You want the UN to pay for our mistakes? Why should they when most of the members of the UN said this war was unecessary? More than that at this time, whether you feel you hated Saddam or not, the common feeling among most Iraqis is, although they feel a Liberation was needed, they do not feel that they particularly wanted to be liberated by us.

Liberated by those you formally saw as major contributers to the opression of your people? That's a new one. Remember most Iraqis blamed the US for the hundreds of thousands of people that died as a result of the 10 years of sanctions that were imposed on them. Most say that they felt abandoned and punshed after the US and UK left (and the then coalition) in 1991, that if they wanted to help they should have helped then and not spent the next 10 years virtually starving them to death whle their leaders lived in the lap of luxuary. That kind of resentment will not be easy, indeed it is possibly impossible to ever overcome.

Anyway I recon you should keep a hold of your rifle, who knows one day you may need it. If you read about your govenments TIA (Total Information Awareness) program (they recently changed it to 'Terrorism Information Awareness' to try to pull the wool over the public's eyes) you will see the full extent of your govenment's ambitions. I find it completely incredible that a country would allow their government to monitor all of their electronic communications in this way. Now even your most private thoughts in a letter to your lover, or your daughter or a letter to an employer or a conversation on the telephone to your closest friend and all - and I mean all are now easily accessible to your govenment. Is this really what you wanted when you gave your govenment permission to fight terrorism? Who really are the terrorists? Your govenment clearly thinks its you. Perhaps it is your govenment who are the real terrorists in all this? In an apparent effort to preserve your freedoms they are taking away virtually all of the freedoms you had. You agreed to this process initially - and now this is the outcome. Regreetably the momentum may now be unstoppable.

Anyway this is the natural instinct of all politicians. It may not be a dictatorship (not yet) but ther tendency is always to try to take as much power as the people will allow them. If they can manufacture a crisis (as in Iraq) and seize even more power for themselves, well all the better.

It's all very parinoid stuff I guess. But then again we are all living in very parinoid times.

It is solely in the hands of the people to change this. Whether they have the will or motivation to do this is another matter.

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Roadee

Not looking for anyone to blame....there is no point in it....doesn't solve anything. Just speaking my mind. And to go and find the info you requested would again...be pointless. But have you looked at what countries have been appointed to which positions/seats lately?? Corruption is real, it doesn't have to be a "water gate" to be real.....and just because it isn't in the public's eye doesn't mean that it isn't there...be real about it for a second. By the way.....corruption in the US or British "governments" would be the easiest There are just to many of them......10 wouldn't even be a drop in the bucket.

As far as the people changing things......sounds good......but isn't realistic in today's government. As long as we have the electoral process in this country.....Florida ring a bell?? I dont see how "we the people" really have much say at all anymore, our right's are diminishing, and the people are giving a shit less it seems....it is screwed up times.

On the UN paying.....the US and British government's supply most of the money and troops at the UN disposal.....our 2 countries are paying for it directly and indirectly already....think about it.

On the liberation of Iraq.....I think we are both "somewhat" even in our thoughts on it....only major exception being...I wanted Hussein taken out of power...maybe personal....maybe not. And I do realize that the US government is responsible for him being there in the first place......once again......the people had NO say in it. We are a democracy......pretty much.....but we dont vote on everything and there is a lot of crap that never reaches public eye's/ear's due to "national security". If you were to measure the likeness in "big brother"......he is already here in many ways. In some ways even more so in Europe. It is a world problem, and in most cases the people, whether democracy or not, really have no say in it. When was the last time you seen a camera set up on a street light, bank machine, beside the road, roof top.....hell on the gate in front of someone's house? Paranoid.......I dont think so.....reality in many ways.......but dont read in to what I am saying to far. Dont make it into something that it is not. These are real examples, not a conspiracy theory. There is ALOT that I dont like about my government.....but if you think I or anyone that I know really has a say.....I dont think so.....it sounds good!! But not reallity. The politicians do what is in THERE best interest's until ALOT of people find out what they have done or are about to do.

My opinion is just that....it doesn't represent anyone except myself......and it isn't and doesn't have anything to do with what other american's think. And I really haven't watched the news in over a month, if something is made a point of on here, then I look it up, if it raises my interest's.

I think I will wait for Jeff to ring in on this topic a bit more before posting anymore......give him a chance to tear me a new one on some things. I will check back in a day or so.....unless someone PM's me for comment.

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We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then things get worse.

raid517

Lol well me and Jeff had this argument before about how the US pays so much money to the UN. (Well really the US hardly ever pays its bills to the UN any more). It turns out Europe on the whole pays more, which is far enough, since Europe is somewhat bigger than the US. But its not fair to compair the contributions of individual countries agaisnt those of the USA. Of course the comparrison will appear disproportionate.

With regard to your other comments concerning the UN... The answer to my own question is there have been no reported instances of corruption concerning the UN since its inception. That doesn't mean it doesn't go on, only perhaps to a much lesser extent than you imagine.

Also you don't appear to be too clear about how the UN works, you seem to think its some huge powerfull body where rich business men and politicians indulge in international horse trading on a daily basis. The UN has no real policy making powers of its own, all policies are decided at a much higher Governmental level. All the UN consists of is a bunch of low level beurocrats who carry out the instructions given to them by their govenments. They are not a 'world govenment' as you seem to think, just a bunch of largely powerless pen pushers doing the bidding of their political masters. I always scoff at the idea of a world govenment, lord knows our own govenment/s can barely get allong as things stand. In Europe we have the European Union and there is generally nothing but fights and fall outs through that. National interests are overall always too conficting for goverments to coopertae on most issues of any significance. That is the way the world has always worked - and that is the way its always going to be.

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Falstaff

I know this might chafe a few folks, but after the debacle called the Vietnam War and the impotence of McNamarra and the short sightedness of Kennedy and Johnson, I am very skeptical about the idea that the tension in Korea will diminish in time. Even when things were good between ourselves, Japan and N. Korea, we were sinking midget subs in the Sea of Japan, intercepting their spies, and recovering bodies in japan and S. Korea of suicide teams. I actually think that supplying N. Korea with anything is an act of appeasement to say the least. Eventually the country will implode. If N. Korea sufferes over 40% attrition in the initial assualts against any power, they cannot sustain a war more than say a week or two in length. The country is booby trapped and riddled with caves in the soft limestone in the North and south..I have seen intelligence that points to an effort to inflict terrible losses on any warring power that might attempt to invade if Nuclear weapons are used. The N. Koreans have been anticipating low yield nuclear style conflict and they are pretty prepared. N. Korea makes their nieghbors nervous, including communist nations, that wouldn't hesitate to use overwhelming force against N. Korea...
I am for a united Korea, but not a communist Korea, but clearly as N. Korea continues nuclear research and refining their techniques to produce weapons grade material, the prospect of a rogue power pointing nukes at our nieghbors and friends is becoming a reality...
Soon, if Syria does not draw our attention away from the pursuit of Saddam Hussien, we will no doubt be more deeply involved in a conflict with N. Korea...It's gonna happen, I just hope my son won't have to serve in this one, because it will be bloody and disasterous for the entire country of Korea. And I don't think the UN and the World Bank are going to step in and rescue these countrys from their fate....
I know it sounds like a broken record, but the war to reuinite N. and S. Korea isn't over yet, it must finish soon....

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raid517

Well as the saying goes Jeff, war doesn't determine who's right, it only ever gurantees who's left. So on the whole I guess you can make your own morality, for all its probably worth. What we see here and now, no doubt history will judge very differently. For the time being though, we're the one's left still standing, so I guess that's got to be good enough.

Ahh fux it guys, we're not going to change anything I guess. How about we just get a beer and forget it? Sorry it can only be a virtual beer, but if I met you guys in a pub I definately would buy you a beer - or three

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Falstaff

so if we met, I insist you drink mine for me, ha ha....hows about a thread on tony blair? take care bro

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Roadee

Hey guys.....great comment's and I have enjoyed particapating in this thread. And your right Raid....I dont know to much about the UN....but I read what is said on here very closely, and more opinions that are given from the different participants on here from around the world , the more of a full picture I get of it, and other subjects.

By the way......drink one for me the beer might make my comment's a bit easier to swallow!!

Cheers!!

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We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then things get worse.

Falstaff

have a tuaca for me....

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raid517

Yeah have a good one mate...

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