MIG-31

A car containing Prince Charles and Camilla has been attacked by protesters in central London, in violent scenes after MPs voted to raise tuition fees in England to up to £9,000 per year.

A window was cracked and their car hit by paint, but the couple were unharmed.

In angry scenes, protesters have battled with police and attacked buildings, including the Treasury and the Supreme Court.
Police say eight officers were hurt in clashes. They have made nine arrests.

Protests have spread to the West End with demonstrators breaking shop windows in Oxford Street.

Source: BBC

__________________

Mousey

Collectively grab skulls - Smash together till brain matter leaks out = Problem Solved.
University Students in this country that are basically rioting disgust me, And that's coming from a youth.

__________________

Sic Puppy

I'm sure there are many University graduates on this forum. I'm not one, but hey if you want to bypass the the years of working your way up the ladder by getting a degree, be expected to pay for it.
Also I seem to remeber the UK have student loans.
Suck it up and suffer. If you can't afford, tough shit. Frikkin' brats.

I don't get a strop on because I'm going to have to pay at least 60% tax on fuel (which is forever on the rise) every time I fill up for the rest of my life!

__________________
PC:- Intel i5 760 with CM 212 Hyper HS&F *-* Asus P7P55D-E Pro *-* 8GB G.Skill 1600 Sniper CL9 & 4GB G.Skill 1600 Ripjaws CL9 *-* Gigabyte GV-R585OC-1GB ATI 5850 *-* CoolerMaster CM690II Advanced *-* Crucial M4 SSD 128GB *-* Seagate 7200.11 500GB *-* Seagate 7200.12 1TB *-* Sidewinder X8 *-* Logitech G510 *-* LG Flatron W2353V 23" & Dell 17" LCD *-* Razer Goliathus Alpha *-* Logitech Z4

Falstaff

Entitlements are always a hotly debated subject.

__________________

Judas

anyone that has done a little investigating into how the money is used, spent and pocketed.... and why the costs of doing so have risen for no good reason.... and NO the teachers/proffessors aren't really getting anything out of it.... most of the even in a public system has been funneled their way into corporate and private pockets....

The university systems and the loan/credit app style methods in order to get an education which is pretty foul at best is an interest money grabbing scheme.... before when there were actually ethics involved, and school/college/universities actually were for mostly non-profit style... where obviously the proffs were paid yes.. and basic necessary maintence and upgrades were sustained, people could actually within reason, afford to go..

but now they've turned it into a business system... with no interest at all in education, just a made to sound overly complicated means of piling debt onto a person as soon as they can as fast as they can and for as long as they can. Degrees are worthless, certification is mostly worthless, etc and so forth.... there are litterally millions of people out there much better at jobs held by no-names that have screwed around their way to the top....

Most interestingly, many of the richest and inventive people in the world have barely even a high school education....

The dogma that starts right in elementry school about "staying in school and get to a university or college the MOMENT you graduate from high school" being pumped into childrens/students/young adults is insane.

Worst yet is the fact that people will defend the utter stupidity of it at all costs. People get up in arms and want to kill the companies that overcharge them a relatively small sum of money for say their phone or cell/mobile on their bill....... however the very same people tend to for whatever reasons enjoy getting the full blown day rape-age for several hundred times larger amounts of money and cheerfully accept it as normal and acceptable.

It's bizarre....

While i'm not for looting/destroying/vandalizing or total choas where people get hurt.... i'd be thoroughly pissed to..

Sit down and do a little math on what a "average joe" would have to pay in INTEREST alone for any typical university education.... the end result is as much as it would cost to build a bloody house of your own and likely furnish it, and top it off with 2 cars.

There are MANY people paying for their education anywhere from 10-15 or more AFTER they had completed it.

And it's not capitalism... it's not "good business" it's just a damn joke, and they are taking every sucker they can suck in for the biggest shit storm of a ride they can for as long as they can.

nothing but gigantic parasites.

__________________

BlueMak

I don't know what some of you are smoking some times. 9K pounds per year for tuition fees is not something good. Many students have to study away from home, paying high rent for shit accomodation, plus living expenses. Yes, they can get student loans, but they are loans and there are limits. Most people can't afford to pay so much money each year. What the government does is make it impossible for a broad range of citizens to gain higher education, followed later by better paying jobs and create a new high class of those who can afford it and those who can't. Further economic and class segregation, which in turn only makes it impossible for lower income people to get more money than what is necessary to survive.
Then even less power to these people, mainly due to the lower education, which stops the people from even contesting with any real hope, any changes of the status quo.

This isn't capitalism, this is aristocracy and is coming back in force.

__________________

The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

Judas

indeed bluemak..

the whole ordeal cannot be expressed simply in any form or another..

there is a whole pile of factors..

and that's just in the realms of those that MIGHT be able to get the loan..

I personally even without any bad credit at all, couldn't get a 500 dollar loan for anything..... so there are situations in which people that should be able to get a loan can't get it.

We have already started to see massive seperation of classes, and it's expanding.... there isn't just poor and rich..... it's super rich, rich and then the mid class being shoved into the poorer status...

__________________

blibbax

Ok, I am a student in the UK.

I'm also on one of the most selective courses at one of the most selective universities - PPE at Oxford.

Now, call me arrogant, but I think that makes me a decent investment of state funds. I'll pay them back several times over in taxes with the extra potential that degree unlocks for my career. Because a degree doesn't buy me past 3 years of the ladder. It makes the ladder steeper and taller.

Had those tuition fees been £6-9k, I wouldn't have gone to uni. The debt would be ridiculous. The state would have lost out on a better educated future me. And I know so many people in this situation.

This isn't about who's entitled to what (even if you do think that university is strictly for the children of millionaires). This is about an entire generation of Brits who will have far reduced opportunities for higher education. As such, it's about killing the UK's knowledge, creativity and service based economy.

You know, I buy petrol too, to drive to work. I don't have a tantrum then either. And if I couldn't afford it, yeah that would be tough shit. Now I'm not a brat, I'm not kicking up a strop, I'm not even protesting. I'm just pointing out that you've entirely missed the point.

__________________

Sic Puppy

Perhaps I should rephrase....I'm NOT saying that everyone that goes to Uni is a whinging brat that gets a strop on. I'm commenting on the fact that there is a choice of going to Uni or not. I would've loved to go butI couldn't afford it back in the day so therefore I didn't/couldn't go, and got a job back in the UK. This job opened up oppertunities to move abroad which I took and as it's in Civil Engineering my employer will soon be offering me to study on a degree specific to my job role to further my career. Now many companies do this today (at least in my experience) as there are now less and less skilled people about.

Anyway I digress. I feel sorry for people currently studying that are now stuck in rut and being forced to pay extra to finish their course, but is rioting (by these "educated" people) going to stop the Govt. from raising it? I think not.... it's never stopped them.

I do agree that fees should be lower and more availiable to lower incomes besides those families in the 40% tax bracket. But it has always been the case, tertiary education costs big $$.

Petrol was just an example. Let's take gas/electricity/council tax/VAT/dairy/doctors fees/insurance premiums the list goes on. These have all gone through the roof over the years, however everyone just has a little whinge. Why is there such a stink being kicked up over tuition fees?

__________________
PC:- Intel i5 760 with CM 212 Hyper HS&F *-* Asus P7P55D-E Pro *-* 8GB G.Skill 1600 Sniper CL9 & 4GB G.Skill 1600 Ripjaws CL9 *-* Gigabyte GV-R585OC-1GB ATI 5850 *-* CoolerMaster CM690II Advanced *-* Crucial M4 SSD 128GB *-* Seagate 7200.11 500GB *-* Seagate 7200.12 1TB *-* Sidewinder X8 *-* Logitech G510 *-* LG Flatron W2353V 23" & Dell 17" LCD *-* Razer Goliathus Alpha *-* Logitech Z4

BlueMak

because they are not asked to pay from 3 to 9 times the price of X from one day to the next and because a night out is not at stake. It is the future of themselves and of not only their generation but the future itself of Britain. The students are right to protest and I hope they win.
I spent about a decade in or around Universities and students in the UK. A very large portion of students could barely manage it with the previous increase in tuition fees. This is not the way to treat your country's future best resources, the people.

__________________

The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

blibbax

In fairness, I won't have to pay increased fees to finish my course. The deal remains as it was offered to me, any other solution would be illegal to the best of my understanding.

Rioting won't stop the government, but the knowledge that a huge number of people are thoroughly pissed off will alter how they think... remember that the Liberal Democrats voter base in the last election was hugely student heavy. They won't want to have no seats at all in 5 years time.

The thing is that many families in the 50% tax bracket, let alone the 40%, don't want to shell out vast amounts to get their kids through uni, and that as a result many kids from both poorer and even quite well off families will now not go to university when they would have done before. I'm aware that its possible to succeed without a degree, as it sounds like you have done, but on an international level the UK is trying to compete with nations that have a huge uptake of higher education.

These are all taxes. They're designed, in theory, to discourage consumption. Do you want to discourage consumption of higher education?

Furthermore, as Bluemak said, petrol or council tax or insurance going from costing you £50 per week to £60 per week is quite different from the degree you were going to go for (a far more important good as it happens) going from costing you £3,500 per year to costing you £9,000 per year.

__________________

Judas

the intention of the tax in general is to not only curb consumption in some aspects... but mostly to take from all and give in payment to the banks in order to try to at least pay the minimum interest charges for the entire country... and considering the fact that if they can get away with it, they'll suck every dollar out of any situation they can, and what better way to do it then through the kids/students of today for something they beleive they "MUST HAVE" in order to do anything at all.

UK is heavy in debt, US is heavy in debt, canada, etc. so forth.. almost every country with a Reserve or some sort and monitary funding system which is a privatized owner, Be it the US Federal reserve, or the Bank of england, demand everyone money after intentionally putting the country into debt for their own business benefits....


"Let them have cake"...

Personally i would have absalutely no problems with a mob of people storming the castle and signing into law that interest on loans or taxes be made ilegal.

__________________

Mousey

60% is that it? I'm moving to New Zealand we pay about 78% tax on fuel

__________________

Judas

i find it funny people are bitching about fuel when water is almost more expensive if not more expensive and it's a LIFE NECESSITY.. and shouldn't be charged for it.

__________________

blibbax

I agree with your sentiment entirely and am not thoroughly read up on the systems elsewhere, but I should point out that in the UK the banks aren't receiving payments from the state. In fact, their paying the state more than they did before the financial crisis of 2008.

__________________

Judas

it's funny how it works... the banks are paying the state.. but then it's turned around again and paid back to the world bank again...

It's kinda like a "right off" it makes the books look good and makes it look like something is happening and things are all square..

Several large businesses and some small businesses do this, it's a bit of a loophole if you will, it's legal but... well.... depends how it's done still..

generally it's like paying your self through a round about way, it shows up as an expense in the books, but then later on the payment back is postponed intentionally to show up later on the books, It makes things look pretty for when they want to document it for public viewing....

it's a joke.

__________________

blibbax

You realise the world bank isn't a commercial bank, and indeed is nothing to do with them?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here... yes we pay taxes, and we pay them to receive services and to cover our negative externalities, so of course we receive something back. Not many businesses actually get money in their coffers from the state though, unless of course it's a subsidised industry, in which case it receives a subsidy to encourage its positive effects on society (in theory).

__________________

Judas

Every government has some form of bank note... that bank note is produced in some manner, and due to a country usually having their own type of bank note.. being money or currency.... has to put up collateral of some sort... before it was in the form of actual gold.... and even in the UK/England/Europe or whatever... it's since quite some time ago, thanks to the united states, changed into imaginary numbers and sums...

Every country that has a direct TIE to such banks... even if most people refuse to accept it.... all the major 1st world and 2nd world countries are tied into this.. this is why the all of them are in such huge debt and can't digg themselves out of the hole that was made....

so the government wants some extra cash in circulation, a bond of sorts is created, the bank accepts it in exchange for the actual currency.. and voila... you've instantly created an unpayable debt because it's at interest.. and since even IF all the money in circulation EVER was paid back in full, it still wouldn't be enough because the interest is created out of thin air presenting you with the obvious problem..

The Interest Currency Paradox.... How can you pay something when the money never excisted in the first place, Exponential and propetial debt ensues, and only after the numbers reach simply unfathomable figures, when the interest per year that is required to be paid soaks up all other forms of required funding, resulting in cuts of social services, and all other aspects that are for the benefit of the people which is now starting to occur, which then results in the tax and additional fees being hiked in order to try and pay the "guaranteed" interest payments per year. There is only a few ways out of these ordeals... and that's either to nuke the excisting currency for another, or essentially STEAL from the public to attempt to keep the banks pleased, or kill the bankers which are sitting on their throans and dictating to the world government as to what to do.

It's really simple .... If you think of the the head bankers as kings or the royal family with total disreguard for their citizens, which is true, what better way to keep your strangling hand wrapped around the public by not even being able to see them, or allowing the public to even get a peak at whom is controlling it all.

Jump into the the finer details of the "world bank" and whom actually controls it all..... it is indeed "comercial" or "privately" owned in a sense... although by a select few and getting the real information about it gets far more difficult the closer you try to get.....

Just because your told something as a matter of fact, doesn't actually mean it's indeed a fact or remotely accurate let alone true.... The less information they tell you, specially when they are being very, well, vague, should be a pretty clue something is up.

__________________

blibbax

Ok, I see you're well into your conspiracy theories, so I'll leave those alone, but:

Nope. A "collateral" for all bank notes in cirulcation is not kept by many nations, and what is held is in the form of gold, and, of course, goverment assets.

Nope again. This is how the goverment deals with a budget deficit, not how it puts extra cash in circulation.

Money is just used to donate value. The total amount of value is increasing. Money is created by central banks (important: "central bank" does not equal "goverment") buying bonds (which can be but don't have to be government bonds) with funds waved out of thin air. If the total value of everything increases proportionally to the increase in the amount of money in the economy, a unit of money will then retain the same value as before. Typically, extra money is made as slow inflation is considered healthy.

To say that the money never existed in the first place is missing the point. Money itself is meaningless. And physical money even more so. All it represents is value, and that existed before but exists in greater quantities now.

Government debt is not inevitable either... it is perfectly possible for a goverment to run at a consistent profit year on year. It's just that this wouldn't be much of a vote winner.

__________________

Judas

I think our definitions are different or perhaps i'm over generalizing it, but i know that gold is definitely not a base standard anymore or form of referrence. As most nations don't use what gold they may have as their "collateral", government assets can be anything, even not excist at all if they can manage it. United states has been very good at this.

So your saying that the government when it's in need of circulating more cash around doesn't call up the central bank that is no part of the government at all, asks for more of their style of money, in exchange for government bonds, to add money to the circulation, that the bank determines to have a form of value. At which point prints up or today, is simply added digital bits of 1's and 0's to the bank accounts of internal Banks in order to allow for more loaning or for several other reasons?

It's just for Deficits?....

And we are still talking theory or how they state it should work but clearly doesn't, You cannot increase the amount of money in circulation and retain the same value, it cannot be done, reguardless of whatever has been put up in circulation, if the money had retained it's same value as the theory suggests, then we would be paying less then 5cent for that bottle of pop/soda, or be able to take everyone out to dinner on a dollar (currency referrence). And no, before inflation is said to be the root cause, the cause of inflation is directly purportional to that of the amount of money in circulation already.

$1 /=/ $1. Through the means of market system and a huge stack of factual market manipulations, there is unfathomable amount of evidence to show that central banks can intentionally cause any currency to faulter or increase in value for no real market given reason. As they can even without government approval, inject any countries fincial system with surplusses of money, lowering each units value by a considerable amount point of even creating the bubbles we've seen expand and many of which have not popped. With a little bit of diplomacy and pr bullshit, you can keep things underwrapps and the faucet on low to slowly increase the unsustainable hyper inflation that must at some point take effect.

The interest on any of these "bonds" is the killing factor, even at low percentages, it is NEVER possible to cover it all, in real world or on paper, you cannot do it, and even the central banks own documents state this clear as a bell. And being that they can hold any government hostage at their own will due to this, provided that the government doesn't string em up by the balls, but usually never will due to basically black mail or holding them hostage anyways Or the fact that there are ways around it anyways, there isn't a single thing that can be done to basically to generalize, continue to slave away for them while they pocket the interest.

The monatary system has always been flawed, money is still created out of thin air, they are intentionally trying to put restrictions on using ANYTHING at all other then their money to complete transactions, people are getting nailed for even bartering in some cases. And as the rope tightens, theres only a select few options to resolve it.

Currency in any form at all, is bad, there are much better ways to do services and product, but unfortunately due to using a form of currency initially having a representative value but no longer doesn't at all, for so long, people cannot grasp and will refuse to accept any change they are used to until shit hits the fan. And frankly i cannot wait.

When the monatary system collapses, i'll be quite happy.

__________________

blibbax

Ok, you have some severe misconceptions and misunderstandings, and I'm not going to type out a beginners economics textbook here, but, some key points:

-Goverments do not need to have the ability to produce anything of value to all of the relevent currency in circulation.
-Central banks do not need to be in any way part of a goverment.
-The amount of money (printed or otherwise) in circulation is not the goverment's responsiblity unless it directly controls a central bank.
-As such, as far as the treasury is concerned, yes bonds are just to deal with defecit.
-Money can retain a constant value or even increase in value. Inflation is not an economic necessity.
-Inflation is not only related to the amount of money in circulation, it's also (more heavily) related to how much people think that money is worth.
-Bonds don't have interest. They have payments. A bond is basically a promise that A will pay B the amount C every year for D years.
-Yeah, the monetary system is flawed. But if it goes away, pretty soon people will start wanting to trade, something will become a popular unit with which to trade (e.g. a precious metal), and it this system starts again. Trading with gold coins would be no different. Neither would trading with cattle.
-Society is flawed. Humanity is flawed. Nature is flawed. Democracy is flawed. Deal with it.

__________________

Judas

Some of the misconceptions aren't that.... half of what you stated is agreed on..

but fundelmentally it's all breaks down to a ficticious and easily controlled system that can make and break...

It's a form of monatary warfare if you wish, and to deny it doesn't excist...... well would be beyond silly.

Indeed society is flawed, but repeating the same idiotic mistake year after year simply because it slows down the spiral into chaos, doesn't make it a good idea to stick with. And the most anyone convinces themselves that it's not their problem, they'll likely die before anything hits the fan hard also is rediculious. As for dealing with it, it's at a point now huge changes are required to take place in a short period of time, dealing with it would to accelerate this into happening.

There is interest on much of the people and government spending, it's not necessarily on the bonds, or not at all. But the money funneled is indeed collecting interest at variable rates depending. which is not at all possible.. this cannot be denied either.

Read through some of the central bank documents.. they state for fact of this occuring.

__________________