Begining of the end of Britain ?

FuNsTeR · May 6, 2011, 04:38 PM

i hope so ... Scottish National Party storm to a landslide victory .. already have a majority in the Scottish assembly ... and the SNP have already announced that their will be a referendum on Independence for Scotland during this parliament ..... 69 SNP and 3 other nationalists out of 129 ... Gallus

Saor Alba

bah typo the title should be Britain

BlueMak · May 6, 2011, 05:45 PM

If Scotland leaves the union, isn't it going to remain/join the EU anyway?
Seems like a backwards step to me, but, I am not from Scotland so I don't have a say in that. Good luck whatever you do.

blibbax · May 6, 2011, 08:01 PM

Scotland would be a lot poorer outside of the UK (it's currently subsidised), and would also probably have to become a lot more involved in the EU in order to survive, as well as becoming a British protectorate (like the Isle of Man).

There'd be big implications for politics in Westminister too, as Scotland accounts for a lot of progressive seats and very few (if any) conservative ones in the houses of parliament.

At the moment, given the <50% turnout in the devolved government elections in Scotland, it isn't clear what Scottish people want, but I hope that they get it, whatever it is

FuNsTeR · May 6, 2011, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blibbax

Scotland would be a lot poorer outside of the UK (it's currently subsidised), and would also probably have to become a lot more involved in the EU in order to survive, as well as becoming a British protectorate (like the Isle of Man).

Scotland has been subsidising the rest of the uk since the 1970s .. 95% of north sea oil is in Scotland's maritime waters 32% of north sea gas lies in Scottish waters ... Scottish Whisky contributes billions to the UK Economy ... and like Scottish oil and gas it is not included in the Scottish GDP but the
UK GDP instead ... worth over £44 billions per year to the UK Economy ... then their is the refinery jobs 95% of the oil is in our waters but only 20% of the oil is refined in Scotland ... the Scottish parliaments budget is around £30 - £40 billion .... so do the maths .... Scotland has more natural resources than any other country in the EU ... which is a FACT!!

personally in regard to the EU ... why quit one union to join another union ... lets see Oil, gas, fishing the EU couldn't afford to piss us off without Scotland their fishing policies are f*cked

Quote:

Originally Posted by blibbax

There'd be big implications for politics in Westminister too, as Scotland accounts for a lot of progressive seats and very few (if any) conservative ones in the houses of parliament.

At the moment, given the <50% turnout in the devolved government elections in Scotland, it isn't clear what Scottish people want, but I hope that they get it, whatever it is

look what would you rather have ... a disgruntled partner or a good neighbour ... because i feel the animosity between Scots and English would lesson ... ... look when something goes wrong we blame it on the English ... it is time for Scots to stand up and take responsibilty for our decisions ... yes i am a nationalist ... i don't hate or dislike English ... i love my country ... and i have never had affinity with the UK ... we have our own culture ... for now i would like Scotland as a whole to take stock and see what can be saved ... UK (England) is trying to be a mini America cultural wise ... quite frankly in my opinion it is a cheap and tacky culture

FuNsTeR · May 6, 2011, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueMak

If Scotland leaves the union, isn't it going to remain/join the EU anyway?
Seems like a backwards step to me, but, I am not from Scotland so I don't have a say in that. Good luck whatever you do.

quite frankly i don't see the point of leaving one union to join another union

actually it is a forward step ... we have a lot in common with the English .... it is what we don't agree that divides us ... we are culturally different from the English and it wouldn't be a backwards step ... the union is holding back England ... whilst we blame (not myself) the English when something goes wrong ... going our separate ways would force some Scots to take responsibility for their decisions/actions

the English want nuclear power and weapons (currently based in Scotland) and we don't we have the ability to get 100% of our energy from renewable (green) energy sources

blibbax · May 6, 2011, 11:21 PM

I agree with some of what you've said, but you are wrong about Scotland subsidising the rest of the UK. It used to be the case, but north sea oil is almost entirely depleted, and the whiskey industry is really quite tiny.

Like I said, though, if the Scottish genuinely want independence, they should have it.

FuNsTeR · May 7, 2011, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blibbax

I agree with some of what you've said, but you are wrong about Scotland subsidising the rest of the UK. It used to be the case, but north sea oil is almost entirely depleted, and the whiskey industry is really quite tiny.

Like I said, though, if the Scottish genuinely want independence, they should have it.

a geological study was done in the mid 90s off the west coast of Scotland ... the survey reported that the oil and gas reserves of the west coast of Scotland dwarfs the oil and gas reserves on the east coast at it's peak levels ... the only reason it is not being tapped ... is down to the nuclear submarine base in faslane .... they wouldn't be able to operate from faslane if the oil was tapped

blibbax · May 7, 2011, 06:50 PM

Even if that's true, oil won't last forever, and it isn't enough on its own to pay for Scotland to enjoy the governmental budget that it does now.

This is from the Guardian, and is fairly interesting:

Quote:

What would an independent Scotland look like?
Salmond insists independence would be far less disruptive than many fear. He wants a partnership of equals between Scotland and the rest of the UK, with a close "social union" between the countries. The Queen would remain head of state, Scotland would initially keep sterling (a measure which means the Bank of England would still set Scottish interest rates) and hope to remain in the EU.
His critics claim Scotland has no automatic right to EU membership; Salmond disputes this. But Scotland would also get about 90% of North Sea oil and gas revenues, but have to pay off a big chunk of the UK's national debts.

(source)

Neshi · May 8, 2011, 02:02 AM

last sentence is real sloppy writing.. wouldnt have suspected that from a newspaper like the Guardian.

blibbax · May 8, 2011, 10:23 AM

The Guardian's guilty of that kind of thing quite a lot, unfortunately. I don't think most of their stuff is properly proofread.

dawgXdenta · May 12, 2011, 06:51 PM

british politics i'm in the dark, wait wait..... politics = lies ahhh no you guys will be fine untill there is another war

Senor_Mota · May 13, 2011, 11:33 PM

They have been talking about the fall of Britain since the early 1970's, and the only thing that has changed is the hands in the pot. I wish you guys luck in the fall of your governmental system...

FuNsTeR · May 28, 2011, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senor_Mota

They have been talking about the fall of Britain since the early 1970's, and the only thing that has changed is the hands in the pot. I wish you guys luck in the fall of your governmental system...

the break up of the UK is closer now than ever ... their will be a referendum on the union within 3 years ... Snp are playing the clever game ... the start of the end for the UK ... was the setting up of the Scottish parliament in 1999 ... ever since the friction between westminster and holyrood has increased ... i am not going to put blame on anyone of the failures of the UK .... but Scots and English are two seperate cultures with different values ... yes their is lots of common ground with our cousins down south .... but it is our differences that divide us .. we have different priorities

blibbax · May 28, 2011, 06:38 PM

The trouble with splitting up nations according to culture is that you end up with lots of tiny nations none of which can wield any influence, and all of which become worse off as a result. You can imagine places like Yorkshire, Wales, Cornwall and the Isle of Weight making arguments for independence on cultural grounds, for example.

What devolution is supposed to achieve is the advantages of independence with the advantages of being part of a major European power.

dawgXdenta · May 29, 2011, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FuNsTeR

the break up of the UK is closer now than ever ... their will be a referendum on the union within 3 years ... Snp are playing the clever game ... the start of the end for the UK ... was the setting up of the Scottish parliament in 1999 ... ever since the friction between westminster and holyrood has increased ... i am not going to put blame on anyone of the failures of the UK .... but Scots and English are two seperate cultures with different values ... yes their is lots of common ground with our cousins down south .... but it is our differences that divide us .. we have different priorities

I wouldn't be so sure,

Britain has a strong economy, a stable government , powerful currency, infighting and pulling this way and that is nothing new, the only thing that can lead to the cause of the fall of the U.K is a WAR AND a global catastrophe happening at once, mind you Britain has survived two world wars

, hehehehe I'm not an expert on British politics but if you and The U.S fall there is NO HOPE for "democracy", whatever that is

Neshi · May 29, 2011, 10:12 PM

no hope for democracy?
there is no hope. all of the government types are bad and none of them work. democracy is just the lesser of evil.

true democracy were the people decide what happens, is nowhere to be found, and probably wouldn't work.

blibbax · May 29, 2011, 10:23 PM

I think that you're absolutely right to say that all types of government are bad. Of course democracy doesn't really work - it could only work if the majority of the population knew exactly what was best for the entire population, and had a champion of similar infinite intelligence to vote for. Naturally, this never happens. And if it did, those who voted against said champion would complain.

However, you're also right to say that democracy is the lesser of many evils. Such worse evils do, in my opinion, include the total lack of government. As such, a world in which democracy - this "lesser of evils" - is as widespread and successful as possible is still, in my opinion, something that we can reasonably and rightly hope for.

dawgXdenta · Jun 5, 2011, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neshi

no hope for democracy?
there is no hope. all of the government types are bad and none of them work. democracy is just the lesser of evil.

true democracy were the people decide what happens, is nowhere to be found, and probably wouldn't work.

, Nice one, however I think it will Zeitgeist, Resource Based economy seems like an answer to our ills, they have great ideas,
Ok Basically have you played DeusX 2, in it they advocate s system of government where everyone is connected to a central matrix, and everyones choices preferences and ideals are taken into consideration, there is no governments laws police just a system that consits of all humans in the world who interconnectedly decide what they want, kinda like the internet accept peoples minds are the nodes.

That would be a true democracy, it will happen we are evolving but we must make an active contribution to it.

dawgXdenta · Jun 5, 2011, 09:42 AM

problem with my browser it double posted

BlueMak · Jun 5, 2011, 11:53 AM

Since we are all saying anything we want in here, the best type of government type is aristocracy, Plato's aristocracy. That is indeed impossible to happen.

Democracy on the other hand, even of the direct type, existed in the past and it is possible to exist in the future with the right technology. The problem is that not all agree to one form of government and that even people who do, tend to some times forget the common good.

That's why Capitalism, the real one, is the best system, though once again, not in effect today, yet.

All of them though are irrelevant to the topic of this thread. I find discussions about "ending" the union as funny, when at the same time the same people want more integration into the EU. But that is just me.

blibbax · Jun 5, 2011, 12:30 PM

Pure capitalism has more than its fair share of problems. It discourages innovation, for example - there is no patenting or copyright under a pure capitalist system, for such measures are both market failures that create monopolies.

I guess it can be argued that pretty much any system of government works well if perfectly executed, though.

BlueMak · Jun 5, 2011, 07:48 PM

I don't know where you get those problems for, discouraging innovation? That's bs. To the contrary.

A system working well doesn't mean it is a good system, so I do not agree that all systems are potentially good.

blibbax · Jun 5, 2011, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueMak

I don't know where you get those problems for, discouraging innovation? That's bs. To the contrary.

Well under a pure capitalist system (which has never been implemented) the only incentives to work (or do anything else) are money and the utility that money can bring, and there is no governmental or altruistic intervention. So, if you develop a new product or idea, your competitors will copy it very quickly and it won't make you any more money than continuing to build the old product. In fact, it'll cost you development costs that your rivals won't have to bear, giving you a competitive disadvantage.

Under a mixed capitalist system the government grants temporary monopolies to encourage innovation (copyright, patents). Under a pure capitalist system these would be considered unaccapetable market failures.

Under a socialist or altruistic system you innovate for the good of your country or fellow man - something which regrettably , in the real world, tends to mean a relatively small amount of innovation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueMak

A system working well doesn't mean it is a good system, so I do not agree that all systems are potentially good.

I didn't say that all systems are potentially good. I said that it can be argued that most systems will work well if perfectly executed. Nothing about the systems being "good" (presumably meaning fair, just, efficient) in there.

__________________

EDIT: This thread has gone:

British devolution
Britain as a bastion of democracy
Hope for democracy or lack thereof
The merits and problems of democracy
Capitalism

I hope that the last jump doesn't mean that we're assuming capitalism and democracy to be the same thing, or to be necessary partners.

BlueMak · Jun 5, 2011, 08:16 PM

I am not going to get into this, too tired.
Check this if you want The Capitalism Site : Laissez-faire Capitalism is the social system based on the principle of inalienable individual rights.
I am out of this thread.

blibbax · Jun 5, 2011, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueMak

I am not going to get into this, too tired.
Check this if you want The Capitalism Site : Laissez-faire Capitalism is the social system based on the principle of inalienable individual rights.
I am out of this thread.

Ok, so you're not going to read or reply to this, but for the sake of anyone that's interested, the difference between our viewpoints on the issue is probably summed up by one of the first sentences of the site linked:

Quote:

The term capitalism is used here in the broader philosophical political sense, not in the narrower economic sense, i.e. a free-market.

I'd also warn for anyone that is interested that that site makes some pretty outrageous claims. Furthermore, their conception of capitalism in the "broader philosophical political sense" also includes a "limited democracy", which is not necessarily something included in every political scientist's conception.

Senor_Mota · Jun 6, 2011, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FuNsTeR

the break up of the UK is closer now than ever ... their will be a referendum on the union within 3 years ... Snp are playing the clever game ... the start of the end for the UK ... was the setting up of the Scottish parliament in 1999 ... ever since the friction between westminster and holyrood has increased ... i am not going to put blame on anyone of the failures of the UK .... but Scots and English are two seperate cultures with different values ... yes their is lots of common ground with our cousins down south .... but it is our differences that divide us .. we have different priorities

Lol...can't let the Scots run the government, or everyone will be drunk all day; can't let the brits run the government, or they'll be sipping tea and wearing dresses faster than you can say "Bloody 'Ell"!

Maybe the division is what needs to change. A politically-united UK, as well as a morally-united UK, will survive the transition.

Mr cairo · Jun 7, 2011, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senor_Mota

Lol...can't let the Scots run the government, or everyone will be drunk all day; can't let the brits run the government,

Scots are Brits

FuNsTeR · Jun 7, 2011, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr cairo

Scots are Brits

i like to think otherwise

Tyrsonswood · Jun 7, 2011, 07:04 PM

Wait!

Didn't we do this already?

Mr cairo · Jun 7, 2011, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FuNsTeR

i like to think otherwise

May 6, 2011, 04:38 PM	#1
FuNsTeR Caledonian and Proud Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Darkest Ayrshire Posts: 1,305 Rep Power: 88 System Specs	Begining of the end of Britain ? i hope so ... Scottish National Party storm to a landslide victory .. already have a majority in the Scottish assembly ... and the SNP have already announced that their will be a referendum on Independence for Scotland during this parliament ..... 69 SNP and 3 other nationalists out of 129 ... Gallus Saor Alba bah typo the title should be Britain __________________ "They say when you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear satanic messages ..... but that's nothing, if you play it forward it will install Windows" Last edited by FuNsTeR; May 6, 2011 at 05:23 PM.

May 6, 2011, 05:45 PM	#2
BlueMak HH's Asteroids' Dominator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Hellas->Macedonia->Thessaloniki Posts: 13,483 Rep Power: 349 System Specs	Re: Begining of the end of Britain ? If Scotland leaves the union, isn't it going to remain/join the EU anyway? Seems like a backwards step to me, but, I am not from Scotland so I don't have a say in that. Good luck whatever you do. __________________ The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm *Sic semper tyrannis.*

May 6, 2011, 08:01 PM	#3
blibbax What does this do? Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 4,262 Rep Power: 254 System Specs	Re: Begining of the end of Britain ? Scotland would be a lot poorer outside of the UK (it's currently subsidised), and would also probably have to become a lot more involved in the EU in order to survive, as well as becoming a British protectorate (like the Isle of Man). There'd be big implications for politics in Westminister too, as Scotland accounts for a lot of progressive seats and very few (if any) conservative ones in the houses of parliament. At the moment, given the <50% turnout in the devolved government elections in Scotland, it isn't clear what Scottish people want, but I hope that they get it, whatever it is __________________ Donate the spare computing power of your PC to help to cure Alzheimer's, ALS, Huntington's, Parkinson's disease and cancer: Fold for HH!

May 6, 2011, 11:21 PM	#6
blibbax What does this do? Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 4,262 Rep Power: 254 System Specs	Re: Begining of the end of Britain ? I agree with some of what you've said, but you are wrong about Scotland subsidising the rest of the UK. It used to be the case, but north sea oil is almost entirely depleted, and the whiskey industry is really quite tiny. Like I said, though, if the Scottish genuinely want independence, they should have it. __________________ Donate the spare computing power of your PC to help to cure Alzheimer's, ALS, Huntington's, Parkinson's disease and cancer: Fold for HH!

May 8, 2011, 02:02 AM	#9
Neshi S.N.A.F.U. Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Wellington, NZ Posts: 3,386 Rep Power: 183 System Specs	Re: Begining of the end of Britain ? last sentence is real sloppy writing.. wouldnt have suspected that from a newspaper like the Guardian. __________________ If one does not attach himself to people and desire, never shall his heart be broken. But then, does he ever truly live? Life is just too damn short for if's and maybe's

May 8, 2011, 10:23 AM	#10
blibbax What does this do? Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 4,262 Rep Power: 254 System Specs	Re: Begining of the end of Britain ? The Guardian's guilty of that kind of thing quite a lot, unfortunately. I don't think most of their stuff is properly proofread. __________________ Donate the spare computing power of your PC to help to cure Alzheimer's, ALS, Huntington's, Parkinson's disease and cancer: Fold for HH!

May 12, 2011, 06:51 PM	#11
dawgXdenta HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Gabz Posts: 1,995 Rep Power: 135 System Specs	Re: Begining of the end of Britain ? british politics i'm in the dark, wait wait..... politics = lies ahhh no you guys will be fine untill there is another war __________________ Today's world is of public opinion and the fates of nations are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be done. --- Osama bin Laden when relating how global media has the minds of the masses. ______________________________________ http://dawgxdenta.deviantart.com/gallery/

May 13, 2011, 11:33 PM	#12
Senor_Mota 悪魔の方法 Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ee-duh-ow Posts: 2,384 Rep Power: 99 System Specs	Re: Begining of the end of Britain ? They have been talking about the fall of Britain since the early 1970's, and the only thing that has changed is the hands in the pot. I wish you guys luck in the fall of your governmental system... __________________

May 28, 2011, 06:38 PM	#14
blibbax What does this do? Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 4,262 Rep Power: 254 System Specs	Re: Begining of the end of Britain ? The trouble with splitting up nations according to culture is that you end up with lots of tiny nations none of which can wield any influence, and all of which become worse off as a result. You can imagine places like Yorkshire, Wales, Cornwall and the Isle of Weight making arguments for independence on cultural grounds, for example. What devolution is supposed to achieve is the advantages of independence with the advantages of being part of a major European power. __________________ Donate the spare computing power of your PC to help to cure Alzheimer's, ALS, Huntington's, Parkinson's disease and cancer: Fold for HH!

May 29, 2011, 10:12 PM	#16
Neshi S.N.A.F.U. Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Wellington, NZ Posts: 3,386 Rep Power: 183 System Specs	Re: Begining of the end of Britain ? no hope for democracy? there is no hope. all of the government types are bad and none of them work. democracy is just the lesser of evil. true democracy were the people decide what happens, is nowhere to be found, and probably wouldn't work. __________________ If one does not attach himself to people and desire, never shall his heart be broken. But then, does he ever truly live? Life is just too damn short for if's and maybe's

May 29, 2011, 10:23 PM	#17
blibbax What does this do? Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 4,262 Rep Power: 254 System Specs	Re: Begining of the end of Britain ? I think that you're absolutely right to say that all types of government are bad. Of course democracy doesn't really work - it could only work if the majority of the population knew exactly what was best for the entire population, and had a champion of similar infinite intelligence to vote for. Naturally, this never happens. And if it did, those who voted against said champion would complain. However, you're also right to say that democracy is the lesser of many evils. Such worse evils do, in my opinion, include the total lack of government. As such, a world in which democracy - this "lesser of evils" - is as widespread and successful as possible is still, in my opinion, something that we can reasonably and rightly hope for. __________________ Donate the spare computing power of your PC to help to cure Alzheimer's, ALS, Huntington's, Parkinson's disease and cancer: Fold for HH!

Jun 5, 2011, 09:42 AM	#19
dawgXdenta HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Gabz Posts: 1,995 Rep Power: 135 System Specs	Re: Begining of the end of Britain ? problem with my browser it double posted __________________ Today's world is of public opinion and the fates of nations are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be done. --- Osama bin Laden when relating how global media has the minds of the masses. ______________________________________ http://dawgxdenta.deviantart.com/gallery/

Jun 5, 2011, 11:53 AM	#20
BlueMak HH's Asteroids' Dominator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Hellas->Macedonia->Thessaloniki Posts: 13,483 Rep Power: 349 System Specs	Re: Begining of the end of Britain ? Since we are all saying anything we want in here, the best type of government type is aristocracy, Plato's aristocracy. That is indeed impossible to happen. Democracy on the other hand, even of the direct type, existed in the past and it is possible to exist in the future with the right technology. The problem is that not all agree to one form of government and that even people who do, tend to some times forget the common good. That's why Capitalism, the real one, is the best system, though once again, not in effect today, yet. All of them though are irrelevant to the topic of this thread. I find discussions about "ending" the union as funny, when at the same time the same people want more integration into the EU. But that is just me. __________________ The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm *Sic semper tyrannis.*

Jun 5, 2011, 12:30 PM	#21
blibbax What does this do? Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 4,262 Rep Power: 254 System Specs	Re: Begining of the end of Britain ? Pure capitalism has more than its fair share of problems. It discourages innovation, for example - there is no patenting or copyright under a pure capitalist system, for such measures are both market failures that create monopolies. I guess it can be argued that pretty much any system of government works well if perfectly executed, though. __________________ Donate the spare computing power of your PC to help to cure Alzheimer's, ALS, Huntington's, Parkinson's disease and cancer: Fold for HH!

Jun 5, 2011, 07:48 PM	#22
BlueMak HH's Asteroids' Dominator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Hellas->Macedonia->Thessaloniki Posts: 13,483 Rep Power: 349 System Specs	Re: Begining of the end of Britain ? I don't know where you get those problems for, discouraging innovation? That's bs. To the contrary. A system working well doesn't mean it is a good system, so I do not agree that all systems are potentially good. __________________ The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm *Sic semper tyrannis.*

Jun 5, 2011, 08:16 PM	#24
BlueMak HH's Asteroids' Dominator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Hellas->Macedonia->Thessaloniki Posts: 13,483 Rep Power: 349 System Specs	Re: Begining of the end of Britain ? I am not going to get into this, too tired. Check this if you want The Capitalism Site : Laissez-faire Capitalism is the social system based on the principle of inalienable individual rights. I am out of this thread. __________________ The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm *Sic semper tyrannis.*