mike2h

official announcement on cnn. supposed to be a detailed breifing tomorrow am. apparentley somebody turned them in & made themselves 30million us$.

shuki

"U.S. forces have announced the capture of 34 of the 55 Iraqis on a most-wanted list of members of Saddam's regime."

amazing! really is pretty remarkable!

Dom

I'll believe it when I see the bodies.

BiGBrOwNPimpsta

thye are still investigating

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BiGBrOwNPimpsta

just checked CNN again just now after summer school and W0000000000TTTTT THEY ARE DEAD!

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mike2h

it will be intersting to see what they come up with tomorrow. personally, i tend to beleive it, if for no other reason than they can not afford any more scandals/self created problems.

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The_Neon_Cowboy

lol ... so they think they got someone... mabe .. we think ... possaby ...lol

love the sureity they have

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BiGBrOwNPimpsta

no they confirmed it on CNN, they are dead

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GOG

Yes, guess it's ok to show off dead Iraqi's to the world medias, God forbid to show off dead american soldiers.

GOG

How many of them are alive? And how many others have lost their lives in this hunt? Or a better question: What the hell gives USA the right to hunt down and kill people at the other side of the globe?

GOG

Maybe they should teach you the value of human lives in summer school... [color=red] <snip>


[WyreEDIT]

GOG, finally warning... NO MORE DIRECT FLAMES against other members. Go and reread the rules, this will be your last warning on this subject. You have been at this site long enough to know that this is not tollerated.[/color]

mike2h

hopefully the moderators will awnser those 'voices'

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GMan[CSR]

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Falstaff

Why GOG you old fool, I've missed you....

Firstly and chiefly, we don't just go around the world picking fights and eliminating dictators to suit your whims. It is complex and reveals our political doctrine for over 200 years and our foriegn policy. Things chang all the time in American government but one thing remains the same. Tyranny is not tolerated. either by those oppressed or those who seek to liberate the oppressor, sound sophmoric right?
Does this sound like the script for a hollywood movie, well sure it does, it is our american culture talking to the world, and all they see are cowboys and indians and seargent rock...We are not a nation of comic book heroes rescueing damsels in distress, we are a dynamic nation composed of different cultures we call collectively "American" but you can find the spirit of liberty everywhere, freedom is not free, and american is willing to pay the price for liberty...With the death toll mounting on all sides, the chance for democracy in IRAQ will likely implode unless something is injected into the whole mess to stabilize the situation...
And the situation is this...We want the IRAQI people to have a chance at democracy or some form of government that will ensure a chance for growth politically and establish a peaceful nation...
In fairness, nothing just gives us the right to kill anyone anywhere on the globe without provacation, and notice I didn't use the word justification, because Daniel Webster and the Devil could argue all day long about "justification"...
Lets just deal with the facts as they present themselves...
We came.....We saw and We conquered...
We fought the war...now we fight the peace...
GOG, I welcome more enlightened debate from you so pleae put your sword away, we are all welcome here if we mind our etiquette.....

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GOG

If I recall correct there was a big fuzz on this page when some Arabic tv-channel showed pictures of dead american soldiers. Now no-one reacts when the american medias are doing exactly the same thing, the moderators even let people post the pictures here in this forum. The only thing those two pictures show is the total incompetence of the US-army, you could capture those alive if you wanted to. Instead you let this rage and overburn continue, 200 soldiers and 6 hrs to KILL 4 civilians with guns. Are these the same troops you are gonna throw at North Korea?


You have lost twice as much of your soldiers after Bush proclaimed the victory. You must be insane if you think you are welcome there.

Falstaff

if there was a rational reason for the IRAQI people to embrace us that is. ...I abhor the pictures they put on the news, even if it was hitler or stalin, or mussolini, it is still repulsive..

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mike2h

nice try at diplomacy & courtesy. sorry it did not work- again. nice post anyway.

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GOG

Don't say that, I respect Jeff though he has an open mind. He's not like you for instance, defending everything coming from that clown in the White House.

Oh, before we forget: Where are the WMD's? Where are the weapons that Iraq was capable to fire within 50 min according to that other moron in London?

Cdr

Firstly, hi all


Secondly GOG, I dont think you could class the two sons as civilians - just because a solider isnt in uniform, doesnt make him a civilian. If you look at the position those two held, these were not just two ordinary everyday people.

I think the main reason to 'parade' the dead bodies on TV was to show the Iraqi people that they were indeed dead. If the bodies weren't shown then I'm sure there'd be countless people saying 'Hey, if they're dead, why not show the bodies? The Americans must be lying!'. The Iraqi people are still fearful that the Americans will do a 1991, pull out, and the old regime would be back enacting revenge. The fact of the matter is, the showing wasn't for the benefit of you or I, but to show that the old regime is dead, to the people who care about it the most - the Iraqis.

As for the chemical and biological weapons, yes there has been a big hoo-har over here in the UK about the so called 40 minute ready-to-fire time, and there will be a number of investigations by Select Committees over it. I never subscribed to the idea of WMD, I do believe however, that the people of Iraq will have a better life without Saddam in power.

merry

First, hi Cdr. Welcome

Secondly. Not classing the two sons as civilians makes things more similar to the display of allied prisonners/dead bodies on TV.

Then, if the main reason "to 'parade' the dead bodies on TV was to show the Iraqi people that they were indeed dead" - they should have done it on Iraqi TV (which I believe is controlled by allied forces), and not on CNN.

Finally...

"I do believe however, that the people of Iraq will have a better life without Saddam in power"

I do believe that too, but... Supposing it will happen right away, I'd still be in doubt if to acclaim the last intervention in Iraq. The fact is that a regime was changed basically because "the Americans" wanted this change (and without previous debate and acceptance from the international community). That is a dangerous precedent.

If the WMDs are not there, and oil issues aside, the Iraq war comes down to America regaining face after 9/11. The powerful always get what they want, and, with a little diplomacy and a little arm twisting they could have gotten UN acceptance for their war. They didn't care for it.

And now, mutilated dead bodies of Iraqi "nomenklatur" in the American media... This is more an announcement for the rest of the world than a comfort for the Iraqi people. A trophy in the medieval tradition of having enemies' ripped-off heads hanging over your city walls.

OK, maybe I got a little carried away... But I don't like the prospect of Dark Ages II coming soon in a theater near me.

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There is a war between the ones who say there is a war
and the ones who say there isn't.
~~Leonard Cohen

Falstaff

considered to be outlaws by the united states is reminiscent of the display of dead lawless men a hundred years ago, I am not going to say I embrace the possibility that either of them had and redeeming social value, but to the muslim world the display of the likenesses surely would put some distance between the coalition and the those conservative muslims we are attempting to embrace. In the context of all is fair in love and war, I cannot say this unusual, but we are not going to stop doing this, dead or alive, the deck is falling one by one. The message is clear, dead or alive, the coalition is going to hunt these men down.

P.S. Welcome Cdr, hope to see more of you...

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JavaFox

Come live in the real world, GOG. Maybe liberals like yourself are content to gamble away the world security on these pseudoalturistic whims, but most of us are not. The question was not "Are there WMD?" it was "Could there be WMD?" Like I said, maybe you are content to answer "Yes, there could be, but let's ignore the problem" -- but I am not. As far as Saddam Hussien is concerned, even the threat of maybe possession WMD was reason enough to depose him. I realize that you do not subscribe to that sort of thought as it relates to American politics because you are anti-American. But if a similar position presented itself in the Real World, I'd have to say you'd sure as hell respond in the same way.

Imagine, for example, that you are sitting watching a movie and someone leaps up and shouts "I've got a gun and I'm going to kill you all!" You look at the guy's face and you realize that you recognize him from your local news -- he recently escaped from jail and he is a convicted murderer. You would either respond one of two ways. You would either respond in a French manner or an American manner. Which is to say you'd either run and tell the cops or you'd try to tackle the guy to the ground. Everyone would. You wouldn't calmly pick up the phone and call the police. You wouldn't ask to see the gun first. You wouldn't go up to the man to frisk him. If he was someone you knew was inbalanced and criminal -- well, I already discussed the only two realistic human reactions.

So the questions are simple. Was Saddam Hussein a criminal and unstable man? The second question is this: what do you do about the possibility he has WMD? If you answer yes to the first question, then only the insane would answer "do nothing" to the second.

GOG

I know there was a suspicion about WND in Iraq, then why not stay with that? Why fabricate outrageous lies just to get a scape goat for an invasion? I'll take it once more:

1. You can't invade a country because the leader in that country terrorizes the inhabitants.
2. You can't invade a country because the leader is mentally instable (which he was far from beeing).
3. You can't invade a country because you suspect the country has WMD's, in fact you are not allowed to do anything without the blessing of the UN. The same UN that most of you have spit on through these last months, the same UN that was right all the time...


And no, no sane person would attack an armed criminal with his bare hands. There is a big difference between fright and insanity. Actually there is a third possibility, the possibility to reason with the guy. But maybe you must be French to understand that?

GOG

Hi Cdr and welcome

1. If the two sons were considered as soldiers, the pictures was against the Geneva convention.
2. If the two sons were civilians, it was plain murder.
3. If the two sons were considered as terrorists, they should be captured alive for a fair trial - not leveled at the ground with missile fire from helicopters.

I really don't know what's counting here though USA is an occupying force, but I think Jeff knows that. What I do know is that there are only two countries in the world where the government has blessed the use of own death squads in other nations (the other one is Israel). This fact makes me wonder how hard they really tried to capture these two guys alive.

JavaFox

That's not true. The UN repeatedly concluded that Iraq's programs were a breach of international law, that Saddam Hussein was a risk, and that WMD could exist. If there were no weapons, why send inspectors? Like I have said again and again, NOBODY was saying there were no WMD before the war. Not the French, not the Germans, not the UN. Everybody thought there were WMD. The fight was over what to do about it. We thought war was the solution, the UN thought an inspection regime and negotiation was the solution. It was a diplomatic spat over the METHOD, not the MOTIVATION.

Say it with me, now: "Nobody contended that there were no WMD in Iraq prior to the war. Not the Germans, not the Belgians, not the French, and not the delegates of the UN. This is an opinion that has only now surfaced because it has become politically beneficial to do so. Resolution 1441 was a condemnation of Saddam's weapon's program and lack of cooperation vis a vis disarmament."


Well, at least you are consistent. Most people would either fight or flee. I think that if you actually faced this situation in real life, you'd react very differently than you claim, however.

Falstaff

Even considering that Saddam had no substantial WMD program, I must conclude that action would have been taken eventually. To my dismay however, I am reminded by muslim friends that America's history is replete with examples of invasion and coup to replace those in power that represent a hostile interest.

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mike2h

the point eveyone is missing is that iraq wanted proof that those bloodthirsty assholes are dead. while not thrilled with the method, can not think of a better, faster way. that, bty seems to have the support of most of iraq- including religous leaders. & that the vast majority of iraq is very, very happy that they are dead. there are some people in this forum that are completley blind to what is going on in the real world(all of it) & will villify the us no matter what they do. must be some sort of envy. all i know is, if i had a bunch of voices talking in my head & i did not know what the hell they were saying i would put myself back in the loony bin & start the thorizine drip up. i really wished we could put java fox's analogy about the armed, mentally unblanced murderer to the test. in this case i would like to see the end result of the 'talking' option.

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mike2h

this is true jeff. not to justify anything but there are very few nations if any, that have not or are currentley comitting such acts in various forms & different levels. unfortunatley it is just another form of politics. check out the history of most of the muslim countries. more wars & conflicts have gone on & are going in these countries than the rest of the world. this is no reflection on the muslim religion any more than any other religion based violence(christianty for 1). there are a LOT of factors involved. but with the proliferation of wmd things have to slow down. india/pakistan is scary. n korea is really scary. something has to be done. not sure if we are doing the right thing - though i have no doubt whatsoever that removing that bastard hussein & destroying his sons was/is the right thing. and it sure beats the hell out of sitting on the sidelines waiting for something to happen. those bozos in europe got shafted by hitler the same way. think they would have learned something.

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GOG

Now you're at it again... It doesn't matter how bloodthirsty or how sadistic these two guys were, it still doesn't give you the right to hunt them down and kill them. And it sure as hell shouldn't be a country that still kills it's own citizens like in the middle ages to be the judge, jury and the hangman. I don't have any envy for your government though I find it brutal and repulsive. And if you continue to make remarks about the sentence below my name, I don't know if I should treat you like a child or a joke.

GOG

That's a great idea, let's destroy all stocks of wmd's - starting with your. Sure, Hitler should never have been allowed to do what he did, but calling me a bozo because of something that happened 34 yrs before I was born is only stupid. The difference between Europe and USA is that a new Hitler could never rise again in Europe, USA on the other hand are repeating their mistakes time after time. Didn't you learn anything from Vietnam? With american soldiers ambushed and killed every day, it's only a matter of time before you withdraw them from Iraq because the home opinion will demand it. And then my friend, there will be another Saddam Hussein waiting in the shadows, and Iraq is back at square one.


You can't force democracy with violence.