Japan to send troops to IRAQ?

Falstaff · Jul 25, 2003, 11:25 PM

The prime minister of Japan, will undoubtedly succeed in passing three bills that will martial forces under his control and send them as an occupation force to IRAQ. The BBC world news reports that if successful this will send a clear message to other countries that Japan is willing and ready to do what is necessary to project power and protect interests abroad...
To me this signals a paradym shift in politics in Asia..

mike2h · Jul 26, 2003, 04:55 PM

do not know if it is a 'paradigm' shift, but it is a definite change. makes things more interesting, especially when you throw n.korea in the mix. wondering if they are setting up something related to that- being invloved in military action vs another country or just trying to reestabish their presence as a world power through other means than economic(kinda backfired on them).

digitalwanderer · Jul 26, 2003, 05:23 PM

I'm not sure what to think about it, but "interesting" is an understatement...

Falstaff · Jul 26, 2003, 05:49 PM

will rise again....

Jul 26, 2003, 06:51 PM

i think its just japan deciding that it is safe to send in troops now...

Falstaff · Jul 26, 2003, 07:10 PM

is a master poker player, I doubt if it ends with just participation, he wants to show N. Korea what they are capable of

JavaFox · Jul 27, 2003, 11:35 AM

It's a good idea. Pulling Japan out of "checkbook diplomacy" will be Koizumi's legacy. I hope to see a full-fledged Japanese military one day.

Falstaff · Jul 27, 2003, 04:03 PM

I don't believe people realize just how powerful Japan really is, I worked with their Navy and they impressed me a great deal. absolutely professional and just as capable as we are in many respects.

Patriot · Jul 27, 2003, 04:34 PM

I spent some time training their air defense guys in southern New Mexico, very motivated group. But you never know how you'll react when the bullets start flying. Sounds like someone wants to get some combat veterans in his ranks before North Korea kamakazies it's self into their homeland...or maybe not.

Falstaff · Jul 27, 2003, 05:41 PM

Yes Freedom isn't free, now the Japanese military will develope their skills and hone their swords.

mike2h · Jul 28, 2003, 08:02 AM

i was thinking along the same lines.

JavaFox · Jul 31, 2003, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Patriot
But you never know how you'll react when the bullets start flying. Sounds like someone wants to get some combat veterans in his ranks before North Korea kamakazies it's self into their homeland...or maybe not.

This is one of the most insightful remarks I have read all month.

Falstaff · Jul 31, 2003, 02:48 AM

The japanese military has the potentiol to become one of the most respected powers in the world, I for one have not forgotten Bushido, and niether have they..
Anyone that doubts the strength of their resolve is a fool...
a damn fool.
If there ever was a sleeping bear, lying to be awakened again.....
They certainly are..

merry · Jul 31, 2003, 02:59 PM

Hm, I don't know, Jeff, if I was to meet a bear, I'd rather he was sleeping...

I might be wrong, but I remeber (vaguely) there was something "special" between Japan and Korea during WWII, something about Koreans being considered/treated as the "inferior race" of the Orient. If this is correct, some monsters might be waking along with the bear, should push come to shove.

JavaFox · Jul 31, 2003, 06:41 PM

The Japanese treated basically everyone in Asia as the inferior race. But then the Germans did too and they have an army? Is the fact that the Japanese did atrocious things enough of a reason for them not to have a military?

mike2h · Jul 31, 2003, 11:18 PM

actually japan considered & treated everyone in the world as an inferior race. mass numbers aside, the japanese comitted more atrocitys against more different types of people than the germans ever thought about. but because it was in 3rd world(at that time) countries very little was said. as far as i know, there are heavy restrictions on both countries as far as the size & type of military they can have. i know when i was stationed in germany their military was pretty small & pathetic. of course with our prescence there was not much point in them spending marks on defense. not sure what the current situation is but the us was pouring a staggering amount of money into that country. i guess we kind of fotted the bill for japans defense force too. sometimes it just does not pay to kick ass.

Falstaff · Aug 1, 2003, 01:23 AM

I believe it is relevant to consider the posture of the japanese military before and immediately after the war with the Allied powers. A fundamental shift in philisophy wasn't achieved overnight. There have always been and always will be nationalists in japan struggling for political power.
After MacArthurs occupation ended and Japan emerged from the economic chrysalis that it lay dormant in, a fully functional self defense force existed.
If you argue about the ostrosociapathic views (racist) of the Japanese, you must also argue that all asian cultures have a "we came first" attitude about their race and refuse to deny any other cultural influence. Fundamentally flawed and unrealistic by todays standards, even our nation embraced terribly racist views of the asian world. And I think it all began with the Boxer Rebellion and Mieji Dynasty. The samurai never really totally submerged into japanese culture, just look at their trade practices. It isn't difficult to me to understand the impatience of moderate or left wing nationalists in Japan, arguing for a stronger military posture.
The japanese military machine has lain hobbled for too long, now it is time for them to rise again and exercise power in the oceans immediatly surround the islands and the western pacifice.
A stronger and more flexible japanese navy would extend the power of our interests .

~~Optimummind~~ · Aug 1, 2003, 02:19 AM

It kinda makes me uneasy to hear that Japan might have a full-fledged army again. There are already lots of trouble over there with N. Korea causing trouble about nuclear weapons. I hope they don't.

In terms of historical background, the Japanese have a deep-rooted sentiment that Korea belongs to them. For centuries they have hated each other and made war against each other. Although the Japanese government and historians will never admit this, it was Korea that greatly influenced the development of the Japanese government, culture, and language just as the Koreans were heavily influenced by the Chinese. Korea admits to this fact and they have always been a friendly ally of China. Thousands of years ago, China and Korea traded heavily and enjoyed each other's cultural diversities.

Japan, however, will not admit that Korea has helped them in the past in structuring their society. When you read early manuscripts describing the natives of the Japanese islands by the Chinese and the Koreans, they are described as short, hairy barbarians who needs to be cultured and helped. Korea sent many of their scholars and artists to help the Japanese. Koreans taught them the art of ceramics, wooden architecture and other things. Also, many of the political exiles from Korea were sent to Japan like political dissidents and criminals from Britain were sent to Australia. When those exiles inhabited Japan, they have since plotted to attack Korea in revenge and that's how the Japanese's hatred toward Korea started. The situation is not unlike China and Taiwan. Taiwan, too, has many political exiles from the mainland that resists the mother country and believes themselves to be superior to China.

That's why when Japan colonialized Korea for a while, they stole many valuable artifacts, paintings, and manuscripts. They also tried to wipe out the Korean language by forcing all students to learn Japanese and sent to prison many intellectuals who defied the language restriction and tried to maintain the Korean culture.

For a proof of the Korean influence on Japan, just study their languages and grammar. The Japanese grammar is nearly identical to that of the Korean language with many words in Japanese that sounds strikingly similar to Korean words for the same objects. For example, in Korean, newspaper called "sin moon." In Japanese, it's "sim boon." In Korean, shoes is called "goo doo." In Japanese, it's called "koo tsu." This is also why it's very easy for a Korean to fluently learn Japanese in less than 6 months and why a Japanese can learn Korean fluently in less than 6 months.

The Japanese, however, are too proud to admit this. Their pride, however, has already cost them dearly--think Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

mike2h · Aug 1, 2003, 02:57 AM

thx for informative posts. i too am a little uneasy with japan as a military nation. i think short term it is probably in our interests but long term... got to remember japan thinks in generations while we are still plugging away at next couple of years. japan is a nation that is extremely limited by its geography & has constant internal pressure to expand. of course having china on your doorstep & all your neighbors still remembering ww2 has got to make your sleep a little uneasy.

merry · Aug 1, 2003, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JavaFox
The Japanese treated basically everyone in Asia as the inferior race. But then the Germans did too and they have an army? Is the fact that the Japanese did atrocious things enough of a reason for them not to have a military?

I didn't mean it like that. One thing is to have an army, one other to participate into an occupation, especially with you *brand new* army. I don't think Japanese folks feel bad about Japan as it is; what will be the effect of a sudden boost of their military pride? I really don't know, and don't want to guess, just the previous posts seemed a little enthusiastic about this whole thing.

This post is almost useless, but I wanted to answer yours, that's all.

Great information here folks. One small thing though. Both Germany and Japan were forbidden to have a [significant] army after WWII. I believe that the German Constitution prevented German armed forces to leave German teritory in any way, and that article was changed only in the 90's, to allow Germany's participation in pacifying Yougoslavia. However, with China and the USSR "rising" in the 50's, those former enemies had to be protected from the new one. Giving them the means to build armies of their own was premature - yes, well, it doesn't always pay to kick ass

Jul 25, 2003, 11:25 PM	#1
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Japan to send troops to IRAQ? The prime minister of Japan, will undoubtedly succeed in passing three bills that will martial forces under his control and send them as an occupation force to IRAQ. The BBC world news reports that if successful this will send a clear message to other countries that Japan is willing and ready to do what is necessary to project power and protect interests abroad... To me this signals a paradym shift in politics in Asia.. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jul 26, 2003, 04:55 PM	#2
mike2h DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: norcal Posts: 6,483 Rep Power: 91 System Specs	do not know if it is a 'paradigm' shift, but it is a definite change. makes things more interesting, especially when you throw n.korea in the mix. wondering if they are setting up something related to that- being invloved in military action vs another country or just trying to reestabish their presence as a world power through other means than economic(kinda backfired on them). __________________

Jul 26, 2003, 05:23 PM	#3
digitalwanderer Colour Commentator Join Date: May 2002 Location: Highland, IN USA Posts: 5,619 Rep Power: 0	I'm not sure what to think about it, but "interesting" is an understatement... __________________ WTF is up with the sigs?

Jul 26, 2003, 05:49 PM	Thread Starter #4
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	The mighty samurai will rise again.... __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jul 26, 2003, 07:10 PM	Thread Starter #6
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	The Japanese prime minster is a master poker player, I doubt if it ends with just participation, he wants to show N. Korea what they are capable of __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jul 26, 2003, 06:51 PM	#5
generalstupid Guest Posts: n/a	i think its just japan deciding that it is safe to send in troops now...

Jul 27, 2003, 11:35 AM	#7
JavaFox E Pluribus Unum Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,203 Rep Power: 0	It's a good idea. Pulling Japan out of "checkbook diplomacy" will be Koizumi's legacy. I hope to see a full-fledged Japanese military one day.

Jul 27, 2003, 04:03 PM	Thread Starter #8
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Me too I don't believe people realize just how powerful Japan really is, I worked with their Navy and they impressed me a great deal. absolutely professional and just as capable as we are in many respects. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jul 27, 2003, 04:34 PM	#9
Patriot DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Michigan, USofA Posts: 217 Rep Power: 0	I spent some time training their air defense guys in southern New Mexico, very motivated group. But you never know how you'll react when the bullets start flying. Sounds like someone wants to get some combat veterans in his ranks before North Korea kamakazies it's self into their homeland...or maybe not. __________________ For those who stand guard, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

Jul 27, 2003, 05:41 PM	Thread Starter #10
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Welcome Patriot Yes Freedom isn't free, now the Japanese military will develope their skills and hone their swords. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jul 28, 2003, 08:02 AM	#11
mike2h DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: norcal Posts: 6,483 Rep Power: 91 System Specs	Patriot i was thinking along the same lines. __________________

Jul 31, 2003, 02:48 AM	Thread Starter #13
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Mega ditto's man The japanese military has the potentiol to become one of the most respected powers in the world, I for one have not forgotten Bushido, and niether have they.. Anyone that doubts the strength of their resolve is a fool... a damn fool. If there ever was a sleeping bear, lying to be awakened again..... They certainly are.. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jul 31, 2003, 02:59 PM	#14
merry gargouille Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 962 Rep Power: 0	Hm, I don't know, Jeff, if I was to meet a bear, I'd rather he was sleeping... I might be wrong, but I remeber (vaguely) there was something "special" between Japan and Korea during WWII, something about Koreans being considered/treated as the "inferior race" of the Orient. If this is correct, some monsters might be waking along with the bear, should push come to shove. __________________ There is a war between the ones who say there is a war and the ones who say there isn't. ~~Leonard Cohen

Jul 31, 2003, 06:41 PM	#15
JavaFox E Pluribus Unum Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,203 Rep Power: 0	The Japanese treated basically everyone in Asia as the inferior race. But then the Germans did too and they have an army? Is the fact that the Japanese did atrocious things enough of a reason for them not to have a military?

Jul 31, 2003, 11:18 PM	#16
mike2h DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: norcal Posts: 6,483 Rep Power: 91 System Specs	actually japan considered & treated everyone in the world as an inferior race. mass numbers aside, the japanese comitted more atrocitys against more different types of people than the germans ever thought about. but because it was in 3rd world(at that time) countries very little was said. as far as i know, there are heavy restrictions on both countries as far as the size & type of military they can have. i know when i was stationed in germany their military was pretty small & pathetic. of course with our prescence there was not much point in them spending marks on defense. not sure what the current situation is but the us was pouring a staggering amount of money into that country. i guess we kind of fotted the bill for japans defense force too. sometimes it just does not pay to kick ass. __________________

Aug 1, 2003, 01:23 AM	Thread Starter #17
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	History of the Japanese military I believe it is relevant to consider the posture of the japanese military before and immediately after the war with the Allied powers. A fundamental shift in philisophy wasn't achieved overnight. There have always been and always will be nationalists in japan struggling for political power. After MacArthurs occupation ended and Japan emerged from the economic chrysalis that it lay dormant in, a fully functional self defense force existed. If you argue about the ostrosociapathic views (racist) of the Japanese, you must also argue that all asian cultures have a "we came first" attitude about their race and refuse to deny any other cultural influence. Fundamentally flawed and unrealistic by todays standards, even our nation embraced terribly racist views of the asian world. And I think it all began with the Boxer Rebellion and Mieji Dynasty. The samurai never really totally submerged into japanese culture, just look at their trade practices. It isn't difficult to me to understand the impatience of moderate or left wing nationalists in Japan, arguing for a stronger military posture. The japanese military machine has lain hobbled for too long, now it is time for them to rise again and exercise power in the oceans immediatly surround the islands and the western pacifice. A stronger and more flexible japanese navy would extend the power of our interests . __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Aug 1, 2003, 02:19 AM	#18
~~Optimummind~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Orange, California Posts: 632 Rep Power: 0	It kinda makes me uneasy to hear that Japan might have a full-fledged army again. There are already lots of trouble over there with N. Korea causing trouble about nuclear weapons. I hope they don't. In terms of historical background, the Japanese have a deep-rooted sentiment that Korea belongs to them. For centuries they have hated each other and made war against each other. Although the Japanese government and historians will never admit this, it was Korea that greatly influenced the development of the Japanese government, culture, and language just as the Koreans were heavily influenced by the Chinese. Korea admits to this fact and they have always been a friendly ally of China. Thousands of years ago, China and Korea traded heavily and enjoyed each other's cultural diversities. Japan, however, will not admit that Korea has helped them in the past in structuring their society. When you read early manuscripts describing the natives of the Japanese islands by the Chinese and the Koreans, they are described as short, hairy barbarians who needs to be cultured and helped. Korea sent many of their scholars and artists to help the Japanese. Koreans taught them the art of ceramics, wooden architecture and other things. Also, many of the political exiles from Korea were sent to Japan like political dissidents and criminals from Britain were sent to Australia. When those exiles inhabited Japan, they have since plotted to attack Korea in revenge and that's how the Japanese's hatred toward Korea started. The situation is not unlike China and Taiwan. Taiwan, too, has many political exiles from the mainland that resists the mother country and believes themselves to be superior to China. That's why when Japan colonialized Korea for a while, they stole many valuable artifacts, paintings, and manuscripts. They also tried to wipe out the Korean language by forcing all students to learn Japanese and sent to prison many intellectuals who defied the language restriction and tried to maintain the Korean culture. For a proof of the Korean influence on Japan, just study their languages and grammar. The Japanese grammar is nearly identical to that of the Korean language with many words in Japanese that sounds strikingly similar to Korean words for the same objects. For example, in Korean, newspaper called "sin moon." In Japanese, it's "sim boon." In Korean, shoes is called "goo doo." In Japanese, it's called "koo tsu." This is also why it's very easy for a Korean to fluently learn Japanese in less than 6 months and why a Japanese can learn Korean fluently in less than 6 months. The Japanese, however, are too proud to admit this. Their pride, however, has already cost them dearly--think Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Aug 1, 2003, 02:57 AM	#19
mike2h DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: norcal Posts: 6,483 Rep Power: 91 System Specs	jeff and opti thx for informative posts. i too am a little uneasy with japan as a military nation. i think short term it is probably in our interests but long term... got to remember japan thinks in generations while we are still plugging away at next couple of years. japan is a nation that is extremely limited by its geography & has constant internal pressure to expand. of course having china on your doorstep & all your neighbors still remembering ww2 has got to make your sleep a little uneasy. __________________