studbagel9

I read the news at the homepage about net phone tapping, and I've got a question, Where does it end?! It seems to me that the government is slowly closing the gaps that our freedoms allow us to live somewhat anonymously. I just got done reading the book 1984 and though I don't think we're going to convert to IngSoc anytime soon or have to learn Newspeak I think it's important for us to have a body who checks what laws the government is placing over us to 'protect' us (I know we have the Judicial branch but quite frankly when's the last time they made a wise decision). Yes terrorism is a threat but is it worth our freedom? I don't believe so.

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The_Neon_Cowboy

all us lines have been "remote" tapped since the 1960s key phrases like government and bomb togeather triggers the system to record and foward the entire converstaion to the fbi / cia for review..

they've been tighting the noose for years .... the terroists are getting just the want arent they? To disrupt the lives of every american .... and congress is is more than happy to give it to them!

well it time for everyone to write congress in triplacate ... about theses matters .... to th point usps fails that would get their attention when a semi comes out frount and dumps truck loads of mail off

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JavaFox

The infringement of privacy is nothing new and is not unconstitutional. Our Forth Amendment protects our privacy and property from "unreasonable search and seizure" except when a warrant (firmly grounded in probable cause, and very limited in scope) is issued.

Wiretapping --and even the "roving" wiretaps prescribed by the PATRIOT Act-- are completely legal and Constitutional measures -- provided that they are backed up by legally sound warrants.

digerati

But a lot of these phone calls are unwarranted. And as such you don't see people going to jail all the time because of the exclusionary rule. Any illegally obtained evidence cannot be presented to the court. Which is why you don't get a guys door being kicked in when a guy tells his friends he robbed a liqour store.

raid517

I have only three short words to say on this issue. Total information awareness (or TIA for short). Look it up, then tell how free you feel.

Q

JavaFox

America doesn't have a legal apparatus with which to spy on its citizens, unlike other nations. At any rate, here are some of the results of the search you recommended:

Intelligence officials: TIA is too broad
Congress introduces bill to kill TIA
Senate seeks TIA halt
Funding for TIA All But Dead
Oversight bringing TIA into check
Senate Moves to Kill TIA Funding
TIA report addresses privacy concerns

Falstaff

I have been exposed to the intelligence community for almost 20 years, and I can say with absolute certainty, that if in the interest of national security, and the preservation of security, that our government has the means, the ability and the resolve, to monitor any and all forms of electronic communication, regardless of any binding issues, legal or otherwise. I will not minimize the importance of remaining above reproach, but when it comes to any form of communication that might potentioly comprimise national security, we performed out mission professionally and Having said that, I operated in an enviornment of total monitoring, by human or electronic interface. all communication was monitored, including written forms. Our legal system has certain caveats that protect us from exploitation by our government, but I must be frank, and say with on occasion in my experience, that we exercised extreme prejudice in obtaining what ws necessary to complete our primary mission. Having said that, I don't want anyone reading this to think that what we transmit online or cellular or digital is beyond the reach of survelience...

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raid517

Well I knew it was in trouble, but my understanding was it was still likely to pass anyway. Nonetheless this does show a very typical JavaFox spin on events, since if you do do a Google search, generally you turn up a much broader criteria of articles. Some say the bill is likely to pass, some say it looks set to fail, while still others say the stiuation is as yet still extremely unclear. For some reason JF wants us to believe in his careful selection of articles that this issue is dead, but if you do do a proper search, you will undoubtedly uncover a much wider and on going debate on this subject. It at least demonstrates the extent of this govenments ambitions for its citizens. There isn't any possible argument to say the wouldn't be exremely happy to see this bill - and other similar bills like it pass. If people do finally put their foot down and draw the line, well that's at least something positive.

Anyway its not my fight I guess. So long as the US govenment stays out of my life and my computer, I don't really care what they do at home. There are at least a lot of questions being asked these days, which is definately an imrovement on the situation that existed as little as perhaps 7 months ago. Dissent in the US it seems, is not as rare as it used to be.

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JavaFox

Internal spying is a controversial issue; no reasonable person, on the American left or the right, thinks that unbridled, unsupervised surveillance of our citizenry is a good thing. But if you think that the American government doesn't endeavor to spy on everybody else, you're quite wrong. Only on the far left will you see people openly hostile to the American foreign intelligence gathering apparatus.

JavaFox

It would have behooved you, my good and honorable friend, to have tried out the search before you spoke. I'll have you know that the only search I conducted was a search on the abbreviation "TIA" on the GoogleNews website. Perhaps if you tried the search yourself you would see that far from being a "carefully selected" collection of articles, my links were all on the very first page.

Maybe Google is part of the right-wing cover-it-up conspiracy!

Falstaff

how deeply involved in computer espionage and monitoring the United States Government really is, or maybe not, nothing is beyond the grasp of the NSA

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raid517

What was that JF, "We're ok but you're not."? Lol as if I'm even moderately worried. The last thing in the world your govenment would be interested in is the contents of my computer. Pretty boring all round really. Now if I ever found they had been in my PC I would be pretty pissed - and would make attempts to stop it happening in future; all the same I doubt they would find anything of even the remotest interest to them there. As for the far left (was that intended as inuendo?) comment, I think some Americans still imagine their living in the cold war. I think its safe to say that the threat of international socialism taking over the world and spoiling the fun of lots of wealthy Americans has been seriously deminished - almost to the extent of being non existant. I am no 'socialist' as you put it, the list of things I dissagree with from the socialist perspective is long and extensive It's just that you are so far right wing, that anything left wing of Genghis Khan seems like a wishy washy liberal to you.


First of all JF (and I mean this in the nicest posible way) I'd say it was a safe bet to give it up with the 'good and honourable friend stuff,' its good of you to say it and all, but you seem to think from watching to much Parliment TV, that everyone in the UK talks like that. We don't. They just have a bunch of ancient (and probably outdated) traditions which govern pretty much everything they do in the House of Commons. Outside of the house of commons, no doubt the curse and swear with the best of us.

Secondly if you had tried my search you would have seen that using a slightly broader search term brought in much broader results. So I did try the search before I posted.

As for the political nature of Google, Google has been used for all kinds of political reasons in the past, not least on numerous occasions on this board. Truth it seems, is very much in the eye of the beholder - and it is possible to use Google to lend support (credible or not) to pretty much any view you have. Is Google itself inherantly political in nature? No! But so long as you have a fixed view of what you want to hear, Google has an uncanny knack of being able to provide the evidence you need to support that view for you.

In any case I said I knew there was resistance to this bill - and that it was nice to see some genuine dissent for a change. But it was this govenment who proposed it - and you can be sure once governments (not just your's) realise the extent of what is now technically possible, they will pursue it, until finally they get what they want. It is the nature of the beast, politicians always crave more power - the minute you let your guard down it is invariably what they attempt to achieve for themselves.

Anyway I tust you are all well.

Kind regards,

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JavaFox

Well, no, it was no innuendo. What I was referring to was the American left, and I don't think my critique was very far off the mark. I'm afraid of neither socialism nor communism, inasmuch as these ideologies have little chance of being accepted outright by the American people. Whether you are socialist or not is not something I particularly care about. I realize, unlike many others, that culturally speaking, there is no one-size-fits-all form of governance; what works for you (and I mean this generally) won't necessarily work for us, and vice versa.

As far as calling you my good and honorable friend, well, yes, you got me. I was making a House of Commons reference. You have to realize that House of Commons coverage has somewhat of a cult following in the US.

I think it was de Tocqueville who said that governments always get larger as time goes on. It is almost an immutable trend in politics, it seems, and you better believe that that growth is definitely to my dismay. That said, I think you and I would both agree that an all-powerful government aware of our every move would be a Bad Thing. I posted not so much in support of the TIA, but only to demonstrate that there is quite a bit of debate still alive in my country -- which is admittedly easy to miss when you are an outsider. But I rest assured that the American system is not broken. Most Americans realize that new tools need to be erected to fight our new enemy, but we all know that a balance between security and liberty must be sought.

Witness post-911 America. I can say with a pretty high degree of confidence that most Americans have not forgotten 911. Yet you see increasing opposition to provisions in the PATRIOT ACT. Even the "flagrantly right-wing network" FoxNews has asked hard questions of the administration (check out the Ashcoft/Hume interview clip I posted). You see record numbers of Americans joining civil liberties groups. Does that sound like the timid, dissent-free America you've made reference to? I think not.

We are not afraid because we are in control.

raid517

Well I see things improving JF. And that can only be a good thing.

I don't know if the American people themselves are very keen to embrace systems like TIA, but it is undoubtedly the case that many politicians certainly are.

Lol anyway when even JavaFox shows a chink of reasonableness on the Political forums at DH, I think there may indeed be hope for everyone.

You are right though, substantive dissent in the US has not been too evident in recent months, either from an outsiders perspective or an insiders perspective. (Having spoken to some American friends of mine who have complained about how hard it has been to gain any ground with any significantly differing views than those upheld by the staus quo). But like I said, and as you have acknowledged I do see that changng.

I know its old hat now, but it still rings true to me what Ben Franklin said when he; “Those who would surrender freedom for security deserve neither!”

Perhaps if I were to qualify my own sentiments on this I would change that a little to say; "Those who surrender freedom for security end up with neither."

It is a willful neglet of the principals of freedom and democracy (such as it is) to not try to correct these transgressions by our leaders once the so called crisis is over. Having practically leveled two countries into the dust now, I am pleased to see many more Americans asking 'when it will all be over?' It is certainly a question that needs to be asked (unless you are prepared to surrender what freedoms you have indefinately, live for ever in abject paranoia and reconcile your country and your children toi a perpetual state of warfare). In the face of attack, rather than surrender your freedoms, you should fight even harder to protect them.

Anyway here is a nice (short) article I found on this subject. I don't think there is anything in it that JavaFox or anyone else could object to. It does make you ponder a little where all this might be going though. As you said, I think everyone can agree that the influence of government in almost every aspect of our lives, personal, private, financial - is in large part an unwarranted intrusion and should be curtailed at every possible oportunity. Freedom is about more than just letting our governments do all our thinking for us.


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PoopyTheJ

He not much of a poster on the political side of the aisle here but I had to throw my towel in the ring on this. It's pretty frightening the amount of survaillance allowed to go on on American citizens. The thing is anyone who has read the misnamed "Patriot" act will know that a crime doesn't have to be commited for them to spy on anyone they please. Simply the possibility that in some future moment a crime could be planned, or contemplated is enough to get a phone/wire tap.
However I don;t think that this thread originator was wide enough when he asked about our rights being taken away. We no longer have the Right to trial by jury, nor the right of the writ of habeaus corpus. Free speech is gone, say something those in power think is dangerous and blammo your done. Protection from unreasonable search and seizure is gone, as is the right to a lawyer. All of this in the name of fighting "terrorism". As far as Newspeak goes, umm last I checked in the US War=Peace, Ignorance=Strength. Newspeak is here.
George Orwell just missed the date.

Esaz666

I totally agree with the last post.
Is there nothing we can do about all this CCTV, Phone monitoring, E-mail snooping crap.
Im not an American citizen, But im pretty sure that our british government are at it just as bad. If
not worse, anything Criminal or otherwize has been allowed to be carried out in the name of
national security / the public interest etc, in the past. So I doubt that its going to change. The more I find out about their hidden Activities the more I dont like what I hear . Government's are definately not to be trusted.

Here they even have police vans at the side of the road scanning your number plate to check
your previous convictions and other data. So they can pull you over, even if your doing nothing wrong.
England is a nanny state.
It makes me think that im not even gonna register my next motorbike. Our rights have gone out the window and nobody is going to stand up against it.
I have had a warning from my I.S.P about my activities on the net, im not even doing anything bad. They have said they are monitoring my I.P address for "illegal Software". Muhahaha.

Falstaff

I kid you not, all this technology we easily embrace invites the very people we wish to keep out, further into our doorways and windows and conversations....It is Orwellian...

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digerati

I thought the mark of the beast was the stuff on the Pope's hat that added up to 666?

raid517

Ahh, the mark of the beast... brings back fond memories of my youth... Anyway as far as I understand it the Pope's hat has nothing to do with the beast - it's just a hangover from the days of Henry the 8th Queen Elizabeth when they sought to deamonise Catholicism in order to promote their own Protestant religion. In any case if the Pope is the beast, he's not a very scary beast. From what I've seen, he seems to spend most of his time either dribbling or sleeping - and when he isn't doing either of these, he's probably having his colostomy bag emptied. Whooo... very creepy I'm sure...

Anyway here is a little reminder of what the beast is supposed to be about. Its still cool even after all these years...

The Number of the Beast

Enjoy...

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PoopyTheJ

Pope's hat? dunno. But anyone with half a brain can look at the lanscape of the world today and see that the days of personal freedoms are numbered. It's the days of corporations and Gov't. Corporations more so than gov't. Soon we'll be a corporate oligarchy, AKA 4th reich.

digerati

I heard it from my dad. And I KNOW my dad is pretty nuts about a lot of things, but I do know that when he believes something there's usually a pretty strong basis behind it, he just usually takes it too far.