ToshiroOC

Do you associate fascism with the pledge of allegiance? I recently heard from a european that the pledge somehow seemed suspiciously fascist, with the whole pledge-to-a-country concept, and I was wondering if others actually think that: as an American, the only reservation I've had regarding the pledge has been the "under God" part, none regarding fascism. Comments?

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Vampyromaniac

Besides the "under God", I thought it's a bit odd they make children do it every single day.

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bluelight

Im dont know exactly what Pledge etc etc..is But i have a hunch that it is somekind written stuff that is basic for your country identity.Ok with me.

Unless you are forced to read i out loud at school everyday.Then....its North Korea.

Bluelight

ToshiroOC

I was required to memorize and recite the words daily, right hand over heart and facing the flag, ever since kindergarten. In 2nd grade I stirred up a ruckus about the under god bit, and haven't said that part since. Words are:

I pledge my allegiance
to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the republic
for which it stands
one nation
under god
indivisible
with liberty and justice for all

(linebreaks may vary).

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Al_Vampyre

I wouldn't say that I consider it fascist per se, but it bears the hallmarks of any totalitarian regime. Think about it, young children being forced to recite a 'mantra', pledging their allegiance to anything is distinctly dodgy. No child should be subjected to that level of brainwashing...

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"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad" - Brian O'Driscoll - Ireland Rugby Team 2009 Grand Slam winning Captain.

BWX

I never heard the word "my" in the first line.

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JavaFox

Precisely what is wrong with impressing upon children an awe for their country? Schools are meant to teach children and provide civic as well as academic guidance. Teaching a child to love his country is not wrong.

BWX

I agree, but you know someone's just gonna come blast you with "US is just like communists" or something similar. Isn't saying the pledge optional for students now anyway?

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Vampyromaniac

Well, this aint about teaching to love one's country, it's about the pledge of allegiance.
Saying the pledge of allegiance every day didn't teach me to love my country.
If it taught me anything, it was that monotony is boring.

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merry

Daily repetition of a formula is not teaching.

Love can not be taught.

Vampy:

We had to sing the national anthem every morning in the classrooms. It wasn't that much a comunist song, maybe there was a line about the Party somewhere, but I can't remember. Anyway, in high-school at least, those of us in the back of the room used to add a "trombone" line to the music, or get creative with the lyrics - which made the teachers be less strict with the singing job. Over the [twenty] years that followed, some of the students proved to be more patriotic than others; some were able of personal sacrifice in the interest of the community; some others left the country, mainly on economic reasons. And you couldn't have said which will do what just from the teenage attitude.

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and the ones who say there isn't.
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Al_Vampyre

You see I think thats the problem, if a country wants to awe its children it should do so by its actions, by its tolerance, by its civic responsibility, by its natural beauty, by its constant striving to improve the lives of not only its own citizens but of those the world over. Not by instilling it into them at an impressionable age...As the Jesuits used to say 'Give us a boy until the age of 7 and we'll give you the man'. In my opinion, and it is only my opinion - I may well be wrong - the practice encourages jingoism rather than patriotism.

jin·go·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jngg-zm)
n.
Extreme nationalism characterized especially by a belligerent foreign policy; chauvinistic patriotism.

pa·tri·ot·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ptr--tzm)
n.
Love of and devotion to one's country

Most Europeans and indeed almost anyone outside the US would describe Americans as the former rather than the latter...

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"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad" - Brian O'Driscoll - Ireland Rugby Team 2009 Grand Slam winning Captain.

krazy1

Yes it is optional... at least in the schools around here..... Even when I was a child I was never "Forced" to say it.

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bluelight

Well im sorry no mattyer the interpretation of the words....

that is brainwashing as far as im concerned.

Where i am we used to have obligatory prayes every morning at eight o clock (when i was a kid) then they realised that we had religious freedom so so quit thius ceremony.

I figure if you have free will in your country you shoud really do the same with this "mantra".

But then is that likely to happen??

No hardly......so the question is your nation as free as it says.


Bluelight

bluelight

No but you are ....forced to stay within a group from which you are excluded....unless you read the "mantra"

The only way to make "free will" out of this....is to read mantars to apply to all religions...and...your nation.

Also...it is questionable if it is within the frames of free will to celebrate a "nation" in this manner.

Yet again persiónally to me...it is North Korea or East germany and thus even ridiculous.

Bluelight

BWX

Know the words you use before you throw them around so freely.

man·tra ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mntr, mn-)
n.
Hinduism. A sacred verbal formula repeated in prayer, meditation, or incantation, such as an invocation of a god, a magic spell, or a syllable or portion of scripture containing mystical potentialities.

A commonly repeated word or phrase: “Today's edutainment software comes shrinkwrapped in the magic mantra: ‘makes learning fun.’� (Clifford Stoll).


You are basing your debate on calling the pledge of allegiance a "mantra" We are not praying to the flag just because the word "God" is in the pledge. God can mean anything you want it to mean, the word is not representative of any particular religion.

First of all it's called patriotism, something you seem to have for your country, but if it exists in the US you compare it to Communism and Nazism in North Korea and E Germany? Seems a bit of a strech and nothing more than an excuse to do some good ole' US bashing if you ask me.

And who said we are exclused if we CHOOSE not to say it? Where did you hear this? I think you made it up.



yes, as always, your country is way better than the US in every way. I'm sure it always was and always will be.

bluelight

The "wrong" comes in when you group them togheter and make them sing or read the same text......

They do that un Korea to.

Exactly the same thing.

Bluelight

bluelight

Yes my country is in many senses better than yours.......for me.



If you dig standing qouting the "whwtever the name of it was" ( To me it is a mantra s that serves nationalism and a specifiuc religious direction) go ahead its your choice but to me its brainwashing and has very little to do with the love for a nation.

It is something that belongs to 1800

Bluelight

JavaFox

Yes, well, if people in this thread can make no distinction between the American Pledge of Allegiance (which, BTW, is a tradition that is only some 50 years old) and coerced Communist utterings, then the only thing that demonstrates is a profoundly anti-American attitude. Not much else.

BWX

Agreed.

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raid517

Same old JF, when ever someone says something he finds difficult to deal with he calls it 'anti-American.' The fact is an 'oath' of any kind can only be meaningful if entered into freely. If there is ever any kind of coercion at all, be is social or political it no longer becomes an oath, but an obligation of allegiance, and that is the mark of a totalitarian regime.

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JavaFox

The Economist talks about something they call the "Hitler manoeuvre" (I'll keep it in British spelling for the sake of making an accurate quotation). The Hitler manoeuvre is, in short, a tendency of people to simply identify things with which these disagree with Hitler. Debates about immigration policy and gun control invariable devolve into this realm. Use of the Hitler manoeuvre is simply a way for people with no good arguments to emotionally taint a debate topic and squelch real intelligent discussion. After all, who would want to argue with anything that was Hitleristic?

You and your comrades are doing the same thing. Let's call it the "Communist maneuver" or the "Totalitarian maneuver" -- you are simply labelling something as totalitarian or Communistic when the parallels are scant at best. No objective and credible person would call the United States "totalitarian" or "Communist," but this is precisely what you are doing. It is your way of saying "I don't like this, let's not talk about it."

The Pledge is not coerced by force. If some kids feel bad about themselves when they do not participate in the Pledge, that is tough shit. Life is tough. It is so irksome to me that people equate social pressure with legal or physical pressure. You face social pressure every day of your life; the government can't save you from it. Maybe we should outlaw expensive clothes, wristwatches, haircuts, children's toys, video games, and report cards -- we wouldn't want kids to feel bad about it when they are different, now would we?

The school's function is to teach, and there is nothing wrong with undertaking the civic duty of teaching kids that they ought to be loyal to America. Maybe when they grow up they will appreciate the words and agree. Or maybe they won't.

Point is, the "Totalitarian maneuver" is a crap way to make an argument. We don't put bullets into the heads of the unruly. And saying that "kids will feel socially pressured" is weak at best because every human being feels social pressure to do something every day of their lives.

raid517

The difference is that this 'social pressure' comes from the government, which makes it political. And coerced political pressure is a mark of totalitarianism. True that it may not be wholly accurate of the US, but it is the start of a slippery slope. In a truly free and democratic country such things should be avoided.

I make no distinctions between the totalitarian practices of the left and the right. Their practices are the same, their methods are the same and ultimately the outcome is the same. The day a government tells you you must wear a specific kind of trainer shoes, or as in this instance pledge allegiance to one narrow ideology, is the day you will know you are no longer truly free.

As for not wanting to talk about things... I'm happy to talk. It isn't me who reaches for a stock defence every time someone says something that is mildly critical. I have no desire at all to stifle debate, and have a large stock of arguments I can draw from. So your assertion that I have nothing to say is quite false. Try me out, I think you know me well enough by now to know you are wrong.

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JavaFox

Eh? If you don't recite the Pledge, do members of Congress come and bully you at school?

raid517

No one will come and shoot you perhaps, but if it is encouraged by the government it is still political. Free countries and free people should be able to choose their own allegiances and should not be expected to swear to any ideology or national identity, unless they feel that this is what they want to do. It's about freedom to choose I guess. If you are happy to do it so be it. Just don't 'expect' that others should.

Lol anyway JF, I doubt this will make any sense to you. Unless people profess an undying love and admiration for America and get up at 6am every morning to the sound of the national anthem to salute the American flag while jerking off to picture of George W Bush, they all tend to seem like a bunch of weak kneed Liberals to you. Mmm... My guess is I'm probably wasting my time... Never mind.

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JavaFox

Funny, if a bit insulting. At any rate, I have no difficulty whatsoever differentiating between dissent and anti-Americanism. Look at ToshiroOC. He and I agree on practically nothing. He is an extreme lefty, supports Kucinich for president, and lives in California. There is no doubt in my mind, however, that the man loves America as strongly as I do. You're the one that's confused. You think that you can paste anti-American rhetoric, never give America the benefit of the doubt, and making sweeping comparisons between American and Communist China yet you shriek when you are called anti-American?

There is a difference between disagreeing with America (see: The Economist) and being anti-American (see: International Herald Tribue, al Jazeera, etc.). I can tell the difference; you're the one that can't. I just call them as I see them.

raid517

Like I said, you just can't see it. I am strongly anti the ignorant uneducated Christian fundamentalist sections of American society, of which I believe G. W. Bush and his cohorts to be a part. But the rest of America I think is a fine place. Mostly I would say I like it. Do I 'love' it? Well let me turn that around by asking you, do you love the UK? The answer is of course most of the time I'm indifferent, unless it should ever get in my way.

I don't have any real grievances against the US, but I can understand the perspective of many I have spoken to who do. But it in no way means I hate the US. What it does mean is I don't think you should expect to have it all your own way on open forums such as these.


There are lots of people in this world. Many with views they consider to be every bit as valid as yours. Maybe when folks like you appreciate this we might well see the beginning of the end of this current international war on terrorism.

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JavaFox

I do in fact have a lot of love for the UK.

But you don't have to HATE the US to be anti-American. Call it anti-Americanism lite.

ToshiroOC

I rather think that raid has a valid point when he says that it should be avoided, even if it isn't really relevant in the context of the USA as far as promotion of totalitarianism goes, just because there is a bit of a trend towards some forms of totalitarianism within our current government, especially with regards to the no-trial-no-release prisoners in Guantanamo, and I see no reason to not combat certain aspects of politics or society that tend towards totalitarianism even if they will in all likelyhood not lead towards totalitarianism. My main complaint with the pledge, however, is that the words "under god", which were a relatively recent addition (and have been in and out of the pledge since its creation) seem to be government promotion of religion, which I can't say I care for much. I'd also like to see "In God We Trust" removed from our currency... I don't know of many other countries that have religious mantras for captions on their coinage.

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raid517

TC put it better than me. To say I was calling America a totalitarian state is an exaggeration. What I said were these things were a nod towards totalitarianism and consequently should be avoided. Thankfully the US still has some way to go before it reaches the full status of a 'totalitarian state' (although right wing Christian fundamentalism might take it there one day). However as TC said too there are many instances where this nod towards totalitarianism is taking some disturbing twists, with Guantanimo, the patriot act and other recent curbs on individual freedoms providing the main examples. As I have said before, a country that cares about its freedoms should be prepared to do everything in its power to defend those freedoms, not rush to give them up when they become harder to maintain.

Maybe some people think Liberty is an overvalued ideal? Personally it is one of the few things I would be quite happy to fight to defend.

But as the saying goes, that's just my 2c worth...

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raid517

Not guilty. I told you who I hate. There are a huge majority who do still do not fall into this catagory.

Q