FuNsTeR

... was it really worth it ... it may not have been a war in the sense that we know ... but what was the true cost in terms of human life and resources wasted on this folly ... even now their is still a after effects of the cold war with the former Soviet Union 118 brave men of the Kursk lost their lives just over 3 years ago to confront a Enemy that was no longer at *war* with to shadow their capital vessels ... how many more lifes must be lost in the future for this phoney war that is meant to be over ... how much more money will be spent building potential death traps like the Kursk instead of feeding and clothing the needy of their own countries (America included) ... i believe half the Royal Navy Submarine fleet is under repair at any given time ... and we are not under war conditions ... so i ask how many more Kursks and Cosmolets will be lost with all hands on deck ... tomorrow it could be a Royal Navy submarine or an Americain submarine



Rant Over

__________________
"They say when you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear satanic messages ..... but that's nothing, if you play it forward it will install Windows"

raid517

I dunno about all that, all I remember was the weird feeling that the world could come to an end any second with a nuclear war and that i could never imagine a time when Germany would be united and fee. How things change...

Q

Falstaff

yes, the communist threat has been usurped by a force that is unequalled as a weapon...religious zeal.

__________________

JavaFox

Islamicism will one day be a dead ideology just as Communism, Nazism, and facism are now. It will just take time.

raid517

Wow JF, that's a dangerous, potentially racist statement. Islam is not a political movement, it's a religion - and one that has been around for nearly 2000 years. There are probably more Muslims in this world than there are Christians, and it is silly to think that somehow it will cease to exist. I'm sure you didn't mean to sound racist, but Islamaphobia is not an admirable trait...

Q

JavaFox

I'm sad that you would bring up the race card (although Islam is not a race anyway), raid. I think I deserve more credit than that.

Describing militant Islam as "Islamicism" is pretty widespread in the United States as of late -- liberals and conservatives alike use it. Perhaps you would prefer the term "jihadism"? At any rate, I never said, and have never advocated going after Islam. Islam is a religion. Militant Islam, on the other hand, is not a religion, it is a political movement, and it is dangerous. It is the threat of our time. Many people think that the War on Terror will never end, but I disagree. I am sure many people thought the same thing about Communism. We will defeat it. Maybe it will take guns, blood, sweat, and tears. Maybe it will just take time. Probably both. But there is no doubt in my mind that we can destroy it.

raid517

I didn't play the race card - and militant Islam is at least a much more accurate term than the phrase you used. Again though you appear to be confusing it as a purely political movement that has one central source that can be identified and defeated. unlike communism that is not the case. How will you stop a young Muslim from Indonesia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, or wherever, who feels they have a genuine grievance against America and the West from strapping a bomb to themselves and blowing up a busy shopping mall? How exactly do you defeat that? It's like the Israeli situation, for every terrorist you kill you spawn 10 more to fill their shoes. America and sadly my own country are just learning that lesson in Iraq now, where previously a low grade risk country has become a hotbed of international terrorism. Your right wing friends made it that way - and sooner or later they are going to have to admit to an embarrassing defeat. Either that or continue throwing billions and billions of dollars into a situation over which they have no control.

As a republican, who is against taxes, how I wonder do you enjoy the idea of paying out money hand over fist to support this folly?

Q

JavaFox

You stop it by killing state support for it. A credible terrorist threat simply can't and won't exist in a nation that doesn't permit it to. Furthermore, you do what we are doing in Iraq -- you help support cultural change. Terrorism cannot exist in any credible way when nations are culturally inoculated against it. Look at the American South. Is the KKK a strong force any more? No, because terrorism is abhorrent to Americans. We must advance this way of thinking in other parts of the world.


I support it heartily. If you think Republicans are against taxes categorically, or that I agree with every tenet of the Republican Party, you haven't been paying attention. I believe strongly in spending money on our military. It ought to replace Social Security as our largest program. I have no problem with projecting American might abroad. In the same vein, I think that it is our responsibility as a moral nation and as the global hegemon to help advance justice and democracy in the world. I believe in the democratic peace theory and to that end, I support nation building. I hate isolationism. So I enjoy it very much, thank you.

raid517

I still don't see how a Pakistani who hitches a lift from Lahore to Baghdad just to kill American soldiers with nothing more than a few dollars in his pocket can be stopped. Again you make the dangerous mistake, indeed the mistake that inspired this entire debacle, in believing that Western values (and moreover our Western values) can somehow be hoisted on those who previously hated and resented everything we stood for. You utterly underestimate the extent of anti Western, Anti American feeling in many Muslim countries. They do not admire our values and therefore have no burning desire to have these values forced on them. No matter how much money you spend you will never be able to change that.

Your idealism in this regard is both misplaced and dangerous. Someone who sees military adventurism as a tool of social engineering is entertaining a potential catastrophe. But we shall see.

I will bet you $100 that in three years America will be forced to withdraw from Iraq and will no longer be able to maintain its stated commitments to the Iraqi people. The strain is already evident. I would suspect that in less than 3 years time it will become practically intolerable.

Q

JavaFox

You greatly underestimate humanity. I see no reason that Middle Easterners --or even Muslims at large-- are incapable of implementing and indeed striving for things like rule of law, self-determination, and free and fair elections. You try to tell me that these ideals are abhorrent to the students in Tehran, for example.

Further, I stated that in addition to cultural change, political change is also necessary. If there are no regimes that harbor and support terror, there will similarly be no international terrorist groups.

I think it is sad that you would want to wager on the development and security of our troops and the people they are trying to help. Give it time -- and you can keep your money. Your shock (and dismay?) will be more than enough.

raid517

As I said, we shall see. So far as far as I can tell I have been right all along. You have won nothing, you have achieved nothing, nothing of any significance was found, terrorism has increased to horrific levels, the people we were supposed to be helping grow more resentful towards us with each day that passes, yet still your madness continues. We are not cared for, not wanted in these regions and the kind of 'social engineering' you speak of is precisely the kind of social engineering that many Muslim peoples fear.

You cannot inspire love, nor bring about freedom or genuine social change by pointing a gun at someone's head. You will be seen, and quite rightly so, for being the oppressors that you are.

Countries who try to force their values on other countries have never faired well. Short term military victories have always been followed by longer term defeats. Will this be the case in this instance? Well it is interesting to note that I feel happy that my money is much safer than yours. You apparently do not see your position as being the 'safe bet' you once thought it was.

There is a lesson here to be learned and one I see being learned very quickly now, at least by your government if not you personally, whereby they have realised they cannot take on the whole world's problems on their own and have now gone back to the UN - and to France and Germany and to all those who resisted this invasion, cap in hand so to speak to ask for their assistance.

I at least see this as a positive move, that perhaps some common sense and sanity is returning to the US central leadership. However it is a bit like closing the gate after the cattle have bolted. There is much to put right now. Indeed much more than there ever was before.

But since you enjoy all this chaos, or at least claim to, then fair enough. That is your choice. For me though my prediction holds and I am patient enough to wait and see where we are in three years from now. Somehow I do not think it is me who will be admitting that I was wrong.

Q

Falstaff

the power of Islamic zeal would be substantially diminished if it was unfunded on a world wide scale. but lets face it..Saudi and Iraqi and even Europeans and naturalized muslims living in America have funded pro-extremists all over the world..

__________________

FuNsTeR

how true

__________________
"They say when you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear satanic messages ..... but that's nothing, if you play it forward it will install Windows"

Falstaff

the sword cuts both ways, I never forgot that axiom of culpability. kill not lest ye be killed..

__________________

JavaFox

Way to take things out of context.

JavaFox

If you and your ilk want to continue to hold the opinion that the toppling of a murderous regime was an an acheivement tantamount to "nothing" then your whole opinion set probably will --and rightfully should-- be condemned to the realm of political irrelevance. Things have improved since major combat operation were declared over. Electricity is still spotty, but better. More Iraqi police are being trained every day. Baghdad's streets are full now of merchants -- and some are selling imports. American and British troops are rebuilding zoos and universities.

But of course none of this is reported in this manner.

A lot of what you hear in the media is exaggeration at best. Iraq is on the road to recovery. Of course the media doesn't cover it that way. The media wants to appear cynical; if Iraq becomes Vietnam they want to be able to call it first since nobody in the media saw the disaster of Vietname before it was too late.

raid517

Lol JF, there is at least some doubt in your own words about the eventual outcome of all this. As I have said we will both just have to wait and see. I see ill winds blowing and one day I expect they will blow away war mongers and right wing extremists such as yourself. Well ok I already know you will object to that, but what the hey. I see a brick I call it a brick. I call things the way I see them.

In any case it is good the dictator is gone, even though no one asked you to do it, or is ever likely to thank you for it, or even wants us to be there. The trouble is you want them to accept values and principals that are largely alien to them. Your version of democracy is hardly one that most of the rest of the world is all that keen to embrace. Indeed its like asking me to accept that your view of the world is the only valid one. And we already know that I think your view of the world is pretty much... well how shall we say it? Mmm... a few choice words certainly spring to mind... So if even I can't accept your world view, or your ideologies or your perspective on the perfect society, how on Earth do you expect an Arab who has been spoon fed on the hatred of the West and of all it's principals to turn round and suddenly want to embrace you either? It aint going to happen; not this side of a cold winter in hell it isn't.

Maybe you really are so wrapped up in your misguided, unwanted, unappreciated idealism that you truly do believe that the rest of the world can be brought to see things the way you do? That is about as likely I should think as the Pope turning Jewish. Never, never, never ever! I for one (one among many) utterly reject your world and absolutely everything you stand for.

But I think I have made my point... If you want to go on living in your little lala land where everybody loves America and the West and is really just pretending not to be a right wing conservative at heart, then so be it. It is you who will remain perpetually ignorant of the realities of this world and you and your ilk that will one day be swept aside by them too.

And that my friend is a day I am prepared to wait for.

Q

JavaFox

Your post was amusing but altogether disconnected from reality. I suppose that if you want to oppose my worldview which consists of self-determination, freedom from tyranny, and safety from extremism, you are free to do that. Though I find it hard to see how and why you might want to object to that. Liberals are funny things -- somehow their peculiar sense of morality, clouded sense of what is right and wrong, and aversion to judgement leads them to be opposed to universally deserved human rights.

At any rate, you need to settle on a story. Am I a reactionist that thinks everyone that disagrees with me is anti-American? Or am I an idealist that thinks the whole world loves America?

If you can't make sense, at least be consistent.

raid517

Unfortunately you are probably both JF, except you are a right wing reactionary who thinks everyone should be MADE to love America... That is what makes you and your sort dangerous; love peace and prosperity down the barrel of a gun... Love and death in abundance.

Hitler was an idealist too you know. Having ideals does not make you a good person.

Just for the record books, it is your warped sense of what you think is free, is just and is decent to which most people, including those you profess to be helping, object to the most. I guess as humans we have fundamentally different ideas of what these words you appear to use so freely really mean.

So I confess I will shed no tears if in a short time this occupation turns into the debacle it is already starting to be; except perhaps for the sons and brothers of the dead. But for your politicians, most certainly not.

Lol, anyway I guess you might not be the worst crazy right wing foaming at the mouth conservative I've ever met, but you are up there. Now and then though you do show the odd chink of reasonableness. Its a pity that it doesn't carry over into most of the other views you express here. Somewhere in there I even somtimes get the impression that there might be half a decent guy. But sadly it never lasts long.

However as I have possibly made very obvious, we are undoubtedly diametrically opposed enemies and come the revolution... Well, you know what they say... Watch out is all!!!

Sigh well all this is just shouting for now anyway. Not very satisfying really. I think I'll just go walk the dog. Infinitely more fun than this.


Q

JavaFox

Haha, I have never said anything to the key of "everyone should be made to love America." I believe in making America secure through blood, sweat, and bullets, and I also believe in using our strength to depose the evil men of the world. The only way I can see these views as being intolerable is through the lens of isolationism and appeasment. Neither of these things has done the world any good. They are negative forces to be avoided.

It's always funny to me that you often end your posts with same elitist "I am too good for this forum" comment. If this isn't entertaining, then don't do it.

Also amusing to me is your use of the "Hitler maneouver" yet again. Just comparing something with Hitler is not an argument. I am not an idealist, I am a realist that believes in mankind's deep-seater desire to be free. You haven't really described exactly what is so abhorrent about my definition of "free." Would it be my belief in the rule of law? The dignity of man? The hatred for tyranny? I wonder what it is that you dislike so much about those ideals. Nor am I a rabid conservative. I am conservative economically and militarily, but I am very moderate socially.

But your labelling of the the President as "right wing Christian extremist" shows that you do not know how to differentiate between right-wing social extremists and right-wing social moderates. The only normal to you is social liberals.

raid517

Free to be poor, free to be ruled by religious doctrine and not common sense, free to die a dogs death after having worked tirelessly through your life for you country, free to be paid a minimal wage, just because you were not born in the blessed country which you profess to love so much, free not to make choices, to communicate with whomever you so please to have your every move and every action monitored, free to be thrown in jail without charge should your politicians deem it appropriate to do so, free to meddle in parts of the world where you have been traditionally despised... If this is the freedom you speak of you already know what I would like to tell you what to do with it.

I never said I felt too good for this forum. I said in a round about way that my dog was biting at my heels and that I needed to walk him. However on consideration it might be true that I feel my dog to be infinitely more important and relevant than you. You take your pick, if there was any metaphor there at all, I wouldn't spend too much time looking for it.

There are indeed evil men in this world, but I guess it's all a matter of perspective who you view them to be. To my eyes there is very little between what you term as the liberators and the oppressors in this whole affair. And if my view of these matters, being somewhat different from yours is that all evil men in this world should be opposed by guns, just as you believe, then who I wonder is to do it?

You say you hate tyranny? Well to me that is perhaps the ultimate irony, since most of the rest of the world sees this current administration as one of the most tyrannical regimes in history. In your pursuit of the 'freedom and dignity of man', you have ranged into tyrannical methodologies to achieve your goals.

"Free? What do you mean he's not free? We'll make him free, and if he doesn't like it we'll blow his damn brains out!"

Uhu... Well if you can't see any contradictions then I am not going to spend endless hours pointing them out to you. Contrary to your previous statement I do find you amusing, however I have calmed down on the boards a little recently because they do take up so much of my time.

Anyway as I said time will tell. You told me I was crazy when I said that there were unlikely to be any WMDs, you said I was smoking crack (or words to that effect) when I said we wouldn't be welcomed and things would be much tougher than you imagined. So all in all, given this track record I am happy to wait and see.


The cracks are already appearing, how much longer do you think you can keep it up if the rest of the World decides to leave to hang out to dry? And by all rights they should, after all it was your government who decided quite adamantly that they didn't need the rest of the world, or the UN or anyone. As I said, we shall see.

Q

JavaFox

Nope, I don't support any of that.

Haha, that is hyperbole at best and dementia at worst. People in the world view the Bush Administration as "one of the most tyrannical regimes in history"? You, sir, are plainly disconnected from reality. The only people that hold that view are members of the very unreasonable and extreme left. You can hold that view if you wish, but doing so destroys the credibility you've earned as an intelligent poster. The Bush Administration is indeed brusque, heavy-handed, and in many cases unilateral. Many of its actions are indeed unprecedented (support of PATRIOT, Guantanamo Bay, Department of Homeland Security, etc.) and are worthy topics of debate. But to label our government as tyrannical is to spit in the face of the millions of dead Europeans, Asians, and Russian who have died under real tyrannies. Your absurd label is obscene to the extreme.

I think you need to read past posts before you make statements such as these. They have no basis in fact at all. What I said was that the possibility of the existence of WMD (which nobody --not you, not the Security Council, not Scott Ritter-- could fully deny) was enough to justify war. If you can show me where I said anything even close to "you are smoking crack" then I will gladly apologize. But until then, you must come to grips with the fact that I uttered no such words. I have had --and continue not to have-- any illusions that Iraq would be easy. You, however, seem surprised that reconstruction and administration is taking so long. This is bewildering to me. History shows that new governments aren't built in a day or even a year. I never said it would be quick, I never said WMD would be found, and I never said it would be easy.

I just said it would be right.

raid517

I lived for 18 years under Conservative ideals, don't try to tell me what real conservatism is all about. Individual responsibility? Bull, it's 'look out for me, look out for my stack, get your hands off of my cash Jack.'

As for winning or loosing your respect JF, how much do you think that really worries me? Lol I have too much self respect to care less about it one way or another.

If I am disconnected from reality, you are living on another planet, for it is surely not this planet where your right wing brethren walk among the blessed of this Earth. I know in your head you imagine it to be so, but to everyone else with any notion of common sense, this is clearly not the case.

Well then in terms of extremes it seems you have met your match. You still know virtually nothing of my true political beliefs, so I can assure you you are very far off the mark in this respect.

Well there you show one of your rare examples of reasonableness, only as ever to spoil it by some meaningless and empty attempt to make an opponent feel guilty and helpless over something they have no control over. Paah! I have no guilt complex whatsoever over what happened 40 or 50 or however many years ago. As I have said, these are things I cannot change. I live in the here and now and it is the problems of the here and now that concern me most.

Lol well there is also the possibility that Canada might have built a giant laughing gas bomb and is prepared to drop it on the US any second now. There is of course no evidence for this, but maybe you should invade them anyway just in case. That is after all the absurd logic of your argument.

I seem to remember a world where truth and evidence and the rule of international law actually meant something. Now all that has been tossed in the bin becuase your leadership thought it could survive in the world all on its own. For how long I wonder? Mmm... I believe about 8 months was the answer... (Or at least until they realised what a fantastic mess of it all they had made).

Now in your warped idea of righteous action, it is ok to be wrong, just because you thought you were right - and even if you were wrong you were still really right because, well as we said, you thought you were right, and that's good enough. Not for me it isn't, not for those who have died needlessly it isn't.

There may not be war veterans speaking at large peace protests yet, but unless the US can get the UN and the rest of the world back on track soon and rejoin the family of civilised nations, I have no doubt that soon enough there will be.

And even then I fully expect you will continue to delude yourself that all of this was some meaningful victory.

The only thing you have won is detractors and enemies and the mistrust of many of those who previously considered themselves your friends.

If that is victory, then I embrace defeat.

So enjoy your time now - for whatever you imagine it to be worth, because it is likely to be very short lived. Let us see how welcome you are after Iraq really does elect a new government (that is if it is not just some puppet government with leaders hand picked by your own political elite). Let us see then how long this already frosty welcome lasts.

Nevertheless, if in three years your government hasn't walked out and abandoned the Iraqi people to its own devices then I will be the first to applaud. I do not though see that happening, and indeed I see the first cracks starting to appear now. That is what angers me. Already your government is trying to shift the burden on to others, when most of these countries openly opposed a war.

Perhaps we should just agree to differ (on everything) and leave our knives at our side for the time being? I am certainly not too good for this forum, otherwise i wouldn't have spent so much time here in the past months. But it is very time consuming to get into these endless arguments with you.

Lets just take it as read that we know what we feel about each other and what we feel about each others views. I have no love of the self serving, militaristic, jingoistic anti-libertarian beliefs that you represent. And you... well wouldn't you just secretly like to toss those who don't love America in jail and throw away the key? Your head and the law might not let you, but hey, once a conservative always a conservative. It will show through eventually.

Anyway peace to you, for what its worth. I doubt we will ever agree on anything very much (Thankfully).

Time as I said is the judge of all things, so we will see wether time favours your view or not.

Personally if I were you, I wouldn't go booking any holidays to the Persian Gulf any time soon.

Q

JavaFox

Your logic is so simplistic as to be useless. Has Canada ever built up stocks of anthrax great enough to kill the planet? Has Canada ever USED chemical weapons to murder innocents? Has Canada ever expelled a UN inspection regime? Is Canada in open defiance of myriad UN Security Council resolutions? Has Canada launced missiles into one of its neighbors? Has Canada invaded a neighbor? Has Canada funded, hosted, and supported regional terror groups? No, no, no, no, no.

No, clearly not. Saying that Canada might have a weapon and saying that Saddam's Iraq might have a weapon are two very different things. To suggest that they are the same is to make evident your own unreasonable extremity.


Nope, I don't believe that at all. Suggesting that I have some latent desire to do so is not only plainly ridiculous, it is offensive. But seeing how you consistently employ such tactics as faulty logic ("Canada might have weapons, attack them! Nevermind that they are unlike Iraq in every way."), the "Hitler manoeuvre" ("I don't like what you're talking about so I'll just call it Hiterlistic and call it a day!") and the liberal use of condescension and insult, I can't say that I am surprised. My sense of what freedom is dictates that anybody ought to be free to speak their mind -- this is something that you take advantage of everyday, yet would have gladly spared the Iraqis the chance of attaining. To be honest, fuck what the Administration has said to justify this war, I backed the war on legal grounds first, and humanitarian grounds a close second.

In your world you would have ignored Iraq. Better to have torture chambers, mass graves, and atrocities against civilians than to go at an "unjustified war," I suppose. This is the peculiar liberal morality I've mentioned. Your world is one guided by narrow self-interest, an aversion to action, and a shaky and dangerous sense of what's wrong and right.

It is one that is colored by the echoes of Chamberlain and littered with Srebrenicas.

raid517

The Canada point made, though sadly missed by you is that there must be real and substantive evidence of a genuine and present danger before any action should be taken - and if you have forgotten that is what I and a great many people have openly and verbally doubted all along. Instead you seem to have taken my analogy with Canada somewhat too literally. Don't worry JF, they aren't really going to attack you with a laughing gas bomb - although it would be pretty funny if they did. The point being made was that the standard of evidence at the time was considered by many to have an equal credibility to that you assigned to my Canada analogy.The reality is/was no matter how ardently you believed it, there were a great many who did not So I feel justified now to ask who was right?

Furthermore, no I would not just have left the Iraqis to their fate, but like many of them I remember their betrayal in 1991 when your last Conservative Messiah promised them full backing and support and then left them to choke on the poison gas fields at Halabja. If your morality and decency were in any way intact, your government at that time should never have let that happen. So please do not preach to me about morality, as it is painfully clear that the morality of your leadership has always purely been based on expediency. If people doubt you, they doubt with good reason.

A conservative with a conscience is in any case a very new idea to me, so give me a decade or two to take the concept in. Then again... na just forget about it, I'm probably never going to be able to take it in.

Lol you do like to jump up and down and make a lot of noise and hope that someone out there will mistake your little tantrums for being valid political points. What I said is Hitler had principals, that having principals of itself does not make you a good person. Or do you have a problem with that notion?

We can both agree on all of the fine ideals you tout, like freedom, choice, political and cultural self determination etc... All of these things sound fantastic, but it is the fundamentally different way we view these concepts that set us apart. Your right wing mid American neo Christian ideals are wholly unsuited to other parts of the world. This utterly warped Momma's apron and apple pie wholesomeness, has no place on this planet other than in old poorly made Hollywood B movies. The people's of this world have their own identities and do not need you to mould them in your image.

Only a maniac says the world can be made better through bombs. But you are simply a reflection of your leadership, and they have already demonstrated their willingness to attack first and ask questions later. So your madness is no different than theirs.

If the Iraqis love us so much, how come they regularly blow up their own electricity and water supplies every time our engineers try to fix them? These are classic resistance tactics, and not just the tactics of a disorganised rabble few.

What an odd humanitarian you are... So what if there was a mass uprising, if resistance became infinitely more fierce than it is now, if large sections of Iraqi society expressed support for the resistance fighters and said they wanted you out, would you bomb them until they agreed to accept your help? You are verging on that reality now.

If you went to Iraq now to the heart of a Baghdad slum an offered your hand to an average Iraqi, what do you think their most likely response would be? a) shake it b) spit in your face? Don't just take my word for it, try it and see.

But these are things you will never understand or appreciate. To your eyes everyone should understand the benefits of Disneyland and MacDonald's. What a shame that you cannot understand they don't - and what is more they probably never will.

Q

Ps

Anyway, why don't you go and pick on someone elses post to quote, I'm tierd and I'm going to sleep, sorry. You can say my 15+ month membership of this board is a demonstration I am too good to post here all you want. I don't care. I just don't have the time.

JavaFox

Yes, well, I'm tired of your rhetoric as well. You know literally nothing about me and you are posting the same tired tripe that every anti-American does. "Not everyone wants Disney and McDonalds!"

Who said that they did? Who proposed that we give it to them? The only thing I support is self-determination. I think it is clear that you are not interested in debate or even discussion because you don't even read posts. I never said the Iraqis love us, only that we owe reconstruction to them. I never said that we should export American culture; we need to export democracy and its institutions. The Iraqis are going to be the ones to shape it in their own image. Precisely when did I exol the virtues of exporting Christian ideals? The only crusaders and paladins that I would ever want in the region are the M109A6 and M2001.

Your criticisms are totally unfounded because the only place they exist is in your mind. I am not a Midwestern American corn-fed American. My mom is not a quaint lady who bakes pies. My life has been that of an expatriate, and I have more perspective on the US military than you ever will. To suggest these things is to only make evident your deep-rooted and nonsencial bigotry towards Americans. We are many and varied. So many people talk about the "international community" but we have constructed it.

--

You're welcome to frequent our other forums, raid517. I think you'll find me far less controntational there.

raid517

Lol JF, we could go on indefinitely I fear. The only way these arguments will ever be resolved is if the day ever comes when there is an opportunity for a calamitous confrontation between our two perspectives.

I have no bigotry towards all Americans, although I do have a deep and abiding bigotry towards a specific kind of American.


I think you understand very clearly who these people are. You should do I have said it often enough.

As I have said however you are possibly not the most rabid of conservatives I have met, your spit an bile sometimes has a softer edge, so maybe I am a little guilty of putting you all under the same banner. When your political masters piss me off though I tend to refer to you all - and them, as a group it is simply easier than addressing every conservative in America individually. We are after all on an open forum and as such we have an audience!

It is something you are guilty of too, I am your convenient liberal target that you can range all of your complaints about liberalism against... But the truth be known I am probably about as liberal as a coiled rattle snake...

Nevertheless even though you have said you do not wish to export your mid Western apple pie and pumpkin principals elsewhere, whether you want to or not, that is the impression you often give. So what i wonder if you 'give' (assuming that you own them already) the Iraqi people their freedom - and then the vote in an Islamic government that is extremely anti-Western and anti American, would you consider that a valid outcome too? Is that a choice you would allow the Iraqi people to make?
Wouldn't that be the ultimate rejection of everything you claim to be promoting?

In any case you are right that politics is probably a bad place to start talking to someone. It can only go from bad, to much worse.

Oh well, what the hey... I don't think either of us are looking to start a mutual fan club... I might take up your invitation on the other forums, but as I said I'm trying to cut back on forum posting. (Not just this one) My family hates me when I get involved in long debates like these as sometimes they don't see me for days at a time). Try arguing with 50 people at once on 50 different topics on 50 different forums, then maybe you will get the picture.

Anyway I am off for the night. If you have anything to add, feel free.

Q

BWX

Observation:

What is the difference between you and this person "spoon fed" hatred? Substitute "west" with "American" or "conservative", and you would have the same view. It seems what that person you speak of would hate most is America, and beyond that, conservatism of any kind. It seems you defend him at all costs and agree with him on every issue. Trying to describe our perspective to this so called "Arab spoon fed hatred" would be the exact same conversation that would happen with you. And he would say the same things you say. Who else would defend "the dictator's" right to stay in power because we cannot prove he is going to kill us, then criticize us in every way conceivable for stepping up to the plate and getting the job done.


Why is it that after almost a year of listening to your anti American rhetoric, your "true political beliefs" are still a such a big huge mystery? Why you want them to be is a better question. I don't think you can say the things you do, then claim nobody knows anything about your beliefs, you have made yourself quite clear.

Have any belief you want, but at least be consistent.

-If it Quacks like a duck...

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Al_Vampyre

I'm not sure ideologies can die. There may be no, or very few, countries that subscribe to communism, nazism, or fascism around at the moment but there are still plenty of individuals who maintain those 'ideals'. As I have said elsewhere in this forum the sooner people stop thinking that killing people with a different ideology than their own is a good thing to do, the better this world will be.

Terrorist attacks are a deplorable atrocity, in every instance, but so is invading a country because you don't like the political choices that their leaders make...two wrongs do not make a right!!

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"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad" - Brian O'Driscoll - Ireland Rugby Team 2009 Grand Slam winning Captain.

raid517

And if it quacks like a right wing, self serving, militaristic, jingoistic, xenophobic, moronic conservative, I guess that's probably what it is too. Not all Americans are conservatives (thankfully) and to be honest I would have a hard job hating them all. All in all I think I would rather save my hate and mistrust for one specific group - as it would simply be too draining to go around hating everyone.

It is not through being spoon fed a hatred of the right that I have come to mistrust conservatism. I lived through 18 years of an extremely right wing government and know only too well what true conservative ideals really mean. It is bitter experience that has taught me to mistrust everything these kind of people stand for.

One of the reasons I cut back on this forum before was I grew bored having to explain to folks (that wasn't the word I chose originally) such as yourself how it is possible to dislike the actions or beliefs of a specific group of people, while not hating an entire race or country. I hated Saddam, but did I hate the Iraqi people? Of course not! Similarly I.... well whatever, you get the picture... I'm not going to go drawing diagrams for you.

In any case you turn all this around and try to go after me, as if I am somehow the cause of all of the ills in Iraq at this current time. I assure you going after me is pointless, it's not me out there bombing and killing our troops every day - all I did was warn against it and say that this was exactly what was likely to happen. Your anger is therefore misdirected.

My own view is very similar to Al_Vampyre, in that you are trying to extinguish an inextinguishable flame. The harder you try, the simply more fierce the flame becomes. Only when efforts are made to address the real concerns that many of these people have will any sense of peace ever be returned to this world.

Q