People who support the legalizing of pot.

~~Luck~~ · Sep 26, 2003, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by UberLord
Thats a silly argument because you're comparing different senses. Taste is one sense whereas getting "high" affects most if not all of your senses.
Besides, a lot of people drink beer ...... to get drunk!

I also happen to like the taste and smell of pot - much more so than nicotine.

Who said I took drugs to make me happy? Not me, thats for sure. I'm just as happy not smoking pot as I'm happy smoking it. I smoke pot because I enjoy smoking pot. Much the same as you probably do what most males (assuming you're male) do first thing in the morning. Scratching my bollox sure makes me happy

In the western world approximately 95% of the wealth is possessed by approximately 5% of the people. That means, using these same figures, that 95% of the people, the overwhelming majority, possess only 5% of the wealth.

I haven't met ONE pot-head who smokes it just because they like the taste. It tastes like the smell of mildo and skunk..but hey, that's you.

And that's HARD LIQUIOR..and hey, they're abusing it, not me or anyone else. Hell, I don't even drink beer or any other alcohol. So that's pretty futile.

Ok, if you don't smoke pot to be happy..then what do you do it for? Honestly..it's not like Cigars where it's just a taste..it's main purpose is to get you high and make your awarness distorted. Bascially, the same reason why Bic's white-out had to be made non-toxic.

And how does that figure answer my question about laws?

~~Luck~~ · Sep 26, 2003, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chaos
I gotta go with UberLord on this one. I know people that have smoked pot on a regular basis for over 20 years and they still manage to maintain a strong family structure....They go to work every day and hold a huge variety of important jobs.....I also know people that drink on a regular basis and on average they show much more damage from their long term consumption than do the ones that like to smoke pot....

I think that in controlled environments that we will be better off in the long term.....Our jails are over crowded due to the high level of "Soft Drug" offenders.....Why ruin some poor kids life with a criminal record because he happened to have a couple joints in his pocket.....damm that's productive.....what's the person going to do after they get out for their possession charge and can't find a job but turn to some other illegal activity to try and support themself.......

I have also worked around the entertainment industry doing live audio in night clubs for Bands and after being in clubs every night for X number of days...months...years....whatever the case may be, I would rather see someone have a puff any day. Often they are even quite entertaining

Well you see..alcohol consuption is probably more than pot-use..of course if your friend smoked it like cigs, he'd be nothing but a vegatable. I've seen some of the pot-heads in Woodstock..all they talk about is pot and their reaction time is slow..

UberLord · Sep 26, 2003, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Luck
Ok, if you don't smoke pot to be happy..then what do you do it for? Honestly..it's not like Cigars where it's just a taste..it's main purpose is to get you high and make your awarness distorted. Bascially, the same reason why Bic's white-out had to be made non-toxic.

I smoke it because I enjoy smoking it.

Can you deny me the basic right to do what I like to myself?

~~Luck~~ · Sep 26, 2003, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UberLord
I smoke it because I enjoy smoking it.

Can you deny me the basic right to do what I like to myself?

It's illegal for a reason..because many people out there aren't like you. They become dependent on these things.

Who are we to say that you're actually NOT dependent on it..you look for it when you want to have fun and enjoy yourself..correct?

Most people don't know they're addicted until it's too late.

~~HawK~~ · Sep 26, 2003, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Luck
It's illegal for a reason..because many people out there aren't like you. They become dependent on these things.

Pot is not addicting, I smoked for 10 yrs mj & hash (heavy

),
I stopped in 1 day 'cause I didn't like it anymore, and never had the urge or need for it again.
Try that with booze. which is legal

JavaFox · Sep 26, 2003, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HawK
Pot is not addicting, I smoked for 10 yrs mj & hash (heavy ),
I stopped in 1 day 'cause I didn't like it anymore, and never had the urge or need for it again.
Try that with booze. which is legal

That's good for you, Hawk. However, your experience is not shared by the 200,000 Americans that entered treatment programs in 1999 to kick the pot habit -- a number that has been steadily increasing every single year since 1992.

UberLord · Sep 26, 2003, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Luck
It's illegal for a reason..because many people out there aren't like you. They become dependent on these things.

Alcohol should be illegal for the same arguments you put fourth.

Quote:

Who are we to say that you're actually NOT dependent on it..you look for it when you want to have fun and enjoy yourself..correct?

I know I'm not dependant on it - I haven't smoked pot for almost a year now. I feel no "addiction". I have been smoking it ~5 years prior.
Nicotine on the other hand I am very addicted to

Quote:

Most people don't know they're addicted until it's too late.

True -but are they addicted to the habit, the substance or the effect?

~~HawK~~ · Sep 26, 2003, 06:44 PM

Yeah well, it is not the pot that is habbitual, attention seeking is.
And how many Alcoholic clinic's are there in the USA?
not even trying to guess how many alcoholics there are.

UberLord · Sep 26, 2003, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JavaFox
That's good for you, Hawk. However, your experience is not shared by the 200,000 Americans that entered treatment programs in 1999 to kick the pot habit -- a number that has been steadily increasing every single year since 1992.

Pot in itself is not chemically addictive. Unlike, say nicotine or alcohol.
http://www.marijuanaaddiction.com/marijuana_pot.html

Interesting site. It's title is "additiction" and yet I can find no mention anywhere stating that pot is addictive.

Therefore I conclude that the 200,000 americans are being treated for habit - as you rightly implied and not the pot itself.

QED another 200,000 Americans are very weak minded.

UberLord · Sep 26, 2003, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HawK
And how many Alcoholic clinic's are there in the USA?
not even trying to guess how many alcoholics there are.

http://store.health.org/catalog/facts.aspx?topic=3

Almost half of Americans aged 12 or older reported being current drinkers of alcohol in the 2001 survey (48.3 percent). This translates to an estimated 109 million people. Both the rate of alcohol use and the number of drinkers increased from 2000, when 104 million, or 46.6 percent, of people aged 12 or older reported drinking in the past 30 days.

I'd say their legal alcohol problem is far worse then their illegal pot problem.

It's about teaching kids properly, doing things in moderation - not what substances are legal and what are not.

JavaFox · Sep 26, 2003, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UberLord
QED another 200,000 Americans are very weak minded.

The only conclusion I can make by this comment is that one Briton is bigoted.

UberLord · Sep 26, 2003, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JavaFox
The only conclusion I can make by this comment is that one Briton is bigoted.

Quote:

big·ot ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bgt)
n.

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I fail to see how my comment could possibly be taken as such

I'd say the same thing if they were British.

Rasta Monsta · Sep 26, 2003, 07:05 PM

Yes, you can become chemically dependant and/or addicted to MJ.

Here is a quote from the report of a licensed, certified A&D counselor, regarding a recent client of mine:

"Chemical dependency is a physicqal response to a drug indicating a combination of aspects including both tolerance adn withdrawal; and, addiction to a substance [or a behavior] is present in an individual who experiences negative consequences directly related to the use of the substance or the behavior but who nevertheless continues to use or act out."

As you can see, 'addiction' has an expansive definition, and can include BEHAVIORS that are to someone's detriment (ie, TV, sex, computer games, food).

rasta

p.s. By the way, the client had been a daily smoker for 15 years, and now uses medically for degenerative disc disease. According to the evaluation referenced above, he was NEITHER dependant OR addicted.

JavaFox · Sep 26, 2003, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UberLord
I fail to see how my comment could possibly be taken as such
I'd say the same thing if they were British.

If it walks like a duck...

UberLord · Sep 26, 2003, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JavaFox
If it walks like a duck...

Rasta Monsta · Sep 26, 2003, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JavaFox
That's good for you, Hawk. However, your experience is not shared by the 200,000 Americans that entered treatment programs in 1999 to kick the pot habit -- a number that has been steadily increasing every single year since 1992.

Well, that's shockingly naive. Treatment providers SELL treatment, which is paid for by insurance money once there is an evaluation indicating that treatment is needed. Can you guess who provides the evaluation?

Treatment is big business, and is majorly cashing in our treatment-oriented society (see, i.e., DOG THERAPY). An increase in the number of people entering such facilities is meaningless as an indicator of any actual societal problem. I will say, however, you are good at spouting all the DEA "War on Drugs" bullshit. . .you have clearly put some effort into absorbing and believing it all.

rasta

mike2h · Sep 26, 2003, 08:05 PM

Quote:

I fail to see how my comment could possibly be taken as such
I'd say the same thing if they were British

then you should.
i believe that is one of americas biggest weakness & strengths- airing our dirty laundry for everybody to see. a lot of the rest of the world has blinders & refuses to acknowledge that they have the same problems that we do.

i love how people from other countries ridicule us for our problems & ignore what is going on in their own backyard just because it is not made 'public'. this particular statement is not aimed specifically at you uberlord, but is a general opinion.

~~HawK~~ · Sep 26, 2003, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mike2h
then you should.
i believe that is one of americas biggest weakness & strengths- airing our dirty laundry for everybody to see. a lot of the rest of the world has blinders & refuses to acknowledge that they have the same problems that we do.

i love how people from other countries ridicule us for our problems & ignore what is going on in their own backyard just because it is not made 'public'. this particular statement is not aimed specifically at you uberlord, but is a general opinion.

I'm sorry Mike, but I find that a very weak argument.. all country's you talk about have problem's one way or the other and are open with it, you just don't read about it one reason being; N.America is so much bigger that you are bound to read that sooner.
My involvement in this thread was just because of that, namely fingerpointing to other country's, while not knowing the whole story.

and 200.000 on a population of 200 million, is in my eyes a very good figure, and nothing to be ashamed of

mike2h · Sep 26, 2003, 10:06 PM

was not meant as an argument merely an observation on my part. i am 44 & have spent a third of my life living oveseas. so my opinion does have a basis. but overall i think your statement, as a generalisation, is basically true.
my post was mostly responding to uberlords - "QED ANOTHER 200,000 Americans are very weak minded."
caps are mine.

Smoothdrive · Sep 30, 2003, 10:55 AM

US putting dirty laundry out there ? don't make me laugh.. if there is one country in the world that covers up 80% of it's actions it's the US.

The fact that Americans know little about other countries is not because the other countries hide something..it's just lack of interest.

By itself this is not a bad thing but don't judge if you don't know.

IMO the Americans just make a much bigger drama out of everything..they come out saying they need treatment because it's cool (after some celebs needed attention and took treatment oppenly), they'll get a lot of attention and sympathy, they'll be called brave...only in America

i'm sorry if i offend someone by this..but there's no way to talk about a country and it's inhibitants without generalisation unfortunately..i'm sure there's plenty of Americans that don't fit the bill and do take treatment because they seriously want to loose a bad habit and are ashamed about there addiction.

Back on topic.. i still have not heard one valid reason to keep the ban on pot.

Did you know the US has addressed the Dutch government demanding they change their laws on drugs ? of course the Americans were told to mind their own business.

UberLord · Sep 30, 2003, 01:59 PM

If pot was so inherently evil, why does it grow naturally and require no processing - just harvesting.

In that vein it's exactly like tobacco

Smoothdrive · Sep 30, 2003, 02:46 PM

I still wonder which cavemen decided to try and inhale some smoke from plants that he had dried...

It's the Indians that invented smoking isn't it ? or was it the Chinese with their opium pipes ?

~~HawK~~ · Sep 30, 2003, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smoothdrive
I still wonder which cavemen decided to try and inhale some smoke from plants that he had dried...

It's the Indians that invented smoking isn't it ? or was it the Chinese with their opium pipes ?

yeah, and i'm still wondering what the man was doing first, when he discovered one could milk a cow

JavaFox · Sep 30, 2003, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UberLord
If pot was so inherently evil, why does it grow naturally and require no processing - just harvesting.

In that vein it's exactly like tobacco

Well, then, what's so bad about eating castorbeans, white snakeroot, cocklebur, and hemlock? Aren't they all naturally occuring?

Tobacco takes extensive processing, at any rate.

Falstaff · Oct 1, 2003, 02:02 AM

comparing any naturally occuring plant with marijuana is flawed.
an argument can be made that it has qualities that are beneficial or non beneficial for human beings. we always see everything from our own viewpoint. abuse of any substance is contraindicated for life.

rogeld · Oct 1, 2003, 02:47 AM

Here is a few little observations as I have yet to read any cold, hard facts except for a few rare links.

Marijuana usually contains less than 1% THC in most mixtures purchased. What does this mean? Well if you look at an EKG of a user exposed to marijuana, their brain activity remains the same throughout. This disproves that it causes any state of altered conciousness. There is only a change when used in very high doses and I doubt that there are many who want to smoke half an ounce of that foul tasting plant. The only scientifically proven effect of Marijuana is conjunctivitis, which is what is usually known as 'puffy eyes' or the swollen and red eyes associated with smoking marijuana. The slowed reaction time arguement? Also only in high doses. Hallucinogenic? High doses once again. The fact of the matter is, that to achieve any of the associated effects of marijuana in its pure form would take rather high dosage. The conclusion? No matter how pure it is, there is more than likely something mixed in to strengthen the effects or it has been laced with other drugs. So you grow it yourself? Did you get your seeds from some pot you purchased? Well the strain has probably been enhanced more than likely.

I am sorry but I don't see marijuana as a serious threat and I think most of the effects are caused by someone sucking in a bunch of burning leaf smoke and holding it in their lungs until they hack it back up. That is oxygen deprivation and produces similar effects. Unless I can see an EKG and chemical blood work report that refutes those findings, I have a hard time believing through simple observation that the drug itself is anything more than something that a gullible person would purchase in order to give themselves a delusion of grandeur.

Interesting fact: Want to pass that next urine test? Find a Delta 7 blocking agent, though I can't say whether or not there is such a thing, and it won't be detected in your urine.

Falstaff · Oct 1, 2003, 03:23 AM

I am more interested in the testimonials of heavily addicted people, who claim that marijuana was in fact a gateway drug for them. regardless of arguments for pharmecological benefit, the fact remains that it is illegal...

mike2h · Oct 1, 2003, 03:36 AM

i live next to humboldt county & have many friends there. your theory about lack of potency & 'effects' is very uninformed. there are chemically enhanced vers, thai stick comes to mind.
you are probably thinking of the 'lids' from back in the 70's. mj has far surpassed that(for better or worse).
by the way you do not smoke the leaves(well you can) you smoke the buds. world of difference. like any plant, there are various strains that have been crossbred over the years for yeild & potency. if you are going to make statements like that you should do some research & catch up. by about 30 yrs.

mike2h · Oct 1, 2003, 03:41 AM

actually the 'gateway' drug is usually alcohol.
imo, most kids turn to mj & other drugs because they are easier to get. mj is usually the 2nd step. if it is made legal & controlled, maybe, having that 2nd step made harder will slow down the borderline kids.
contrary to widely held beliefs most hard core addicts spend very little time with mj.
i know this because one of my brothers was an addict for many years. i have 1st hand knowledge from going to rehab & aa(not alc anon) with him many different times. he has been clean for 5 yrs now.
so my point is this, pot, overall is a small determining factor in whether somebody takes the step to harder drugs & the next step to addiction. & yes, there are people addicted to pot ( iknow a couple personally). people that have addictive personalities and/or can not deal with whatever their reality is are going to find something. but this is largeley irrelevant.
i beleive legalising will actually slow the 'borderline' kids down while reducing some crime. the ONLY way to stop the hardcore use & abuse is to make laws harsher & to destroy the supply. if money from pot legalisation is used properley, it could help facilitate this.
health & fiscally wise this country would be much better of if most people took a hit of a joint instead of a drink.

Falstaff · Oct 1, 2003, 04:28 AM

there are several gateway drugs, marijuana is one of them...addiction, regardless of the drug if you will, is still addiction, right?

Sep 26, 2003, 10:06 PM	#49
mike2h DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: norcal Posts: 6,483 Rep Power: 89 System Specs	HawK was not meant as an argument merely an observation on my part. i am 44 & have spent a third of my life living oveseas. so my opinion does have a basis. but overall i think your statement, as a generalisation, is basically true. my post was mostly responding to uberlords - "QED ANOTHER 200,000 Americans are very weak minded." caps are mine. __________________

Sep 30, 2003, 10:55 AM	#50
Smoothdrive Foolish Genius Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 455 Rep Power: 0	US putting dirty laundry out there ? don't make me laugh.. if there is one country in the world that covers up 80% of it's actions it's the US. The fact that Americans know little about other countries is not because the other countries hide something..it's just lack of interest. By itself this is not a bad thing but don't judge if you don't know. IMO the Americans just make a much bigger drama out of everything..they come out saying they need treatment because it's cool (after some celebs needed attention and took treatment oppenly), they'll get a lot of attention and sympathy, they'll be called brave...only in America i'm sorry if i offend someone by this..but there's no way to talk about a country and it's inhibitants without generalisation unfortunately..i'm sure there's plenty of Americans that don't fit the bill and do take treatment because they seriously want to loose a bad habit and are ashamed about there addiction. Back on topic.. i still have not heard one valid reason to keep the ban on pot. Did you know the US has addressed the Dutch government demanding they change their laws on drugs ? of course the Americans were told to mind their own business. __________________ GA-7VRXP, AMD2000+, 256MB PC-2700 DDR, Radeon 8500LE, 2x Maxtor 740 (40GB) stripe set, AGNeovo X-150.

Sep 30, 2003, 01:59 PM	#51
UberLord A Legend in Underwear Join Date: May 2002 Location: Unknown Posts: 5,255 Rep Power: 70	If pot was so inherently evil, why does it grow naturally and require no processing - just harvesting. In that vein it's exactly like tobacco __________________ Gentoo Linux - Developer (baselayout) Read my blog "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Stephen Roberts

Sep 30, 2003, 02:46 PM	#52
Smoothdrive Foolish Genius Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 455 Rep Power: 0	I still wonder which cavemen decided to try and inhale some smoke from plants that he had dried... It's the Indians that invented smoking isn't it ? or was it the Chinese with their opium pipes ? __________________ GA-7VRXP, AMD2000+, 256MB PC-2700 DDR, Radeon 8500LE, 2x Maxtor 740 (40GB) stripe set, AGNeovo X-150.

Oct 1, 2003, 02:02 AM	#55
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,047 Rep Power: 206	comparing any naturally occuring plant with marijuana is flawed. an argument can be made that it has qualities that are beneficial or non beneficial for human beings. we always see everything from our own viewpoint. abuse of any substance is contraindicated for life. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Sep 26, 2003, 06:44 PM	#38
~~HawK~~ Banned Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 2,092 Rep Power: 0	Yeah well, it is not the pot that is habbitual, attention seeking is. And how many Alcoholic clinic's are there in the USA? not even trying to guess how many alcoholics there are.

Oct 1, 2003, 02:47 AM	#56
rogeld DriverHeaven Addict Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 259 Rep Power: 0	Here is a few little observations as I have yet to read any cold, hard facts except for a few rare links. Marijuana usually contains less than 1% THC in most mixtures purchased. What does this mean? Well if you look at an EKG of a user exposed to marijuana, their brain activity remains the same throughout. This disproves that it causes any state of altered conciousness. There is only a change when used in very high doses and I doubt that there are many who want to smoke half an ounce of that foul tasting plant. The only scientifically proven effect of Marijuana is conjunctivitis, which is what is usually known as 'puffy eyes' or the swollen and red eyes associated with smoking marijuana. The slowed reaction time arguement? Also only in high doses. Hallucinogenic? High doses once again. The fact of the matter is, that to achieve any of the associated effects of marijuana in its pure form would take rather high dosage. The conclusion? No matter how pure it is, there is more than likely something mixed in to strengthen the effects or it has been laced with other drugs. So you grow it yourself? Did you get your seeds from some pot you purchased? Well the strain has probably been enhanced more than likely. I am sorry but I don't see marijuana as a serious threat and I think most of the effects are caused by someone sucking in a bunch of burning leaf smoke and holding it in their lungs until they hack it back up. That is oxygen deprivation and produces similar effects. Unless I can see an EKG and chemical blood work report that refutes those findings, I have a hard time believing through simple observation that the drug itself is anything more than something that a gullible person would purchase in order to give themselves a delusion of grandeur. Interesting fact: Want to pass that next urine test? Find a Delta 7 blocking agent, though I can't say whether or not there is such a thing, and it won't be detected in your urine.

Oct 1, 2003, 03:23 AM	#57
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,047 Rep Power: 206	I am more interested in the testimonials of heavily addicted people, who claim that marijuana was in fact a gateway drug for them. regardless of arguments for pharmecological benefit, the fact remains that it is illegal... __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Oct 1, 2003, 03:36 AM	#58
mike2h DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: norcal Posts: 6,483 Rep Power: 89 System Specs	rogeld i live next to humboldt county & have many friends there. your theory about lack of potency & 'effects' is very uninformed. there are chemically enhanced vers, thai stick comes to mind. you are probably thinking of the 'lids' from back in the 70's. mj has far surpassed that(for better or worse). by the way you do not smoke the leaves(well you can) you smoke the buds. world of difference. like any plant, there are various strains that have been crossbred over the years for yeild & potency. if you are going to make statements like that you should do some research & catch up. by about 30 yrs. __________________

Oct 1, 2003, 03:41 AM	#59
mike2h DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: norcal Posts: 6,483 Rep Power: 89 System Specs	fallang_jeff actually the 'gateway' drug is usually alcohol. imo, most kids turn to mj & other drugs because they are easier to get. mj is usually the 2nd step. if it is made legal & controlled, maybe, having that 2nd step made harder will slow down the borderline kids. contrary to widely held beliefs most hard core addicts spend very little time with mj. i know this because one of my brothers was an addict for many years. i have 1st hand knowledge from going to rehab & aa(not alc anon) with him many different times. he has been clean for 5 yrs now. so my point is this, pot, overall is a small determining factor in whether somebody takes the step to harder drugs & the next step to addiction. & yes, there are people addicted to pot ( iknow a couple personally). people that have addictive personalities and/or can not deal with whatever their reality is are going to find something. but this is largeley irrelevant. i beleive legalising will actually slow the 'borderline' kids down while reducing some crime. the ONLY way to stop the hardcore use & abuse is to make laws harsher & to destroy the supply. if money from pot legalisation is used properley, it could help facilitate this. health & fiscally wise this country would be much better of if most people took a hit of a joint instead of a drink. __________________ Last edited by mike2h; Oct 1, 2003 at 04:01 AM.

Oct 1, 2003, 04:28 AM	#60
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,047 Rep Power: 206	there are several gateway drugs, marijuana is one of them...addiction, regardless of the drug if you will, is still addiction, right? __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."