Israel should watch itself...

JavaFox · Jul 11, 2002, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by skinlab
he was assassinated, they dont want that to happen to their leaders.
the biggest terrorrists here are the israelis, they're the one who go into people's homes, rape their women, kill their children, and then burn their houses down. what's left for the palestinians? they have nothing to live for, a suicide attack gives them the feeling that they have contributed something to their cause. im not against it, i support it. they lose a couple homes, they kill a couple 'innocent' civilians, as if the people that were in those destroyed homes arent innocent, oh wait, they're palestinians, how can they be innocent, they are, after all, the terrorrists arent they?

Bull-fucking-shit. I'm tired of people portraying the Palestinians as hopeless, with no other choice other than to blow themselves and a bus full of Israel noncombatants. If that weretrue, and if the Palestinians truly have no hope, attacks wouldn't flare up when negotiations are being made, now would they?

I don't disagree with the Palestinian cause; I disagree with their methods. You can't fight that way. Period.

JavaFox · Jul 11, 2002, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by skinlab
he was assassinated, they dont want that to happen to their leaders.
the biggest terrorrists here are the israelis, they're the one who go into people's homes, rape their women, kill their children, and then burn their houses down. what's left for the palestinians? they have nothing to live for, a suicide attack gives them the feeling that they have contributed something to their cause. im not against it, i support it. they lose a couple homes, they kill a couple 'innocent' civilians, as if the people that were in those destroyed homes arent innocent, oh wait, they're palestinians, how can they be innocent, they are, after all, the terrorrists arent they?

If the Palestinians would stop illegally blowing up civilians, and switch to non-violent protest like the Indians did, they would have vast international support. But so long as they attack noncombatants as "protest" they will never win the hearts of anyone.

Yeti · Jul 11, 2002, 05:15 PM

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No, no, no, no, NO!

I don't care how upset you are, terrorist bombings are never right. Not in retaliation, not for freedom -- never. So long as the Palestinians continue to blow up buses and night-clubs full of civilians, they will never have international sympathy or legitimacy as a movement. They are not freedom fighters. Arafat said he would take care of Hamas.

When?

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Bull-****ing-shit. I'm tired of people portraying the Palestinians as hopeless, with no other choice other than to blow themselves and a bus full of Israel noncombatants. If that weretrue, and if the Palestinians truly have no hope, attacks wouldn't flare up when negotiations are being made, now would they?

Q.)Whats the difference between a Soldier and a "Non-Combatant"?
A.) One is holding a gun and the other isn't.

Q.) Whats the difference between an Israeli soldier and a Palestinian Terrorist?
A.)None. Both get support from the U.S. government.

Its like there is some big plot for all the non christians to kill each other off.

JavaFox · Jul 11, 2002, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Q.) Whats the difference between an Israeli soldier and a Palestinian Terrorist?

Adherence to rules.

--

Geneva Convention

Article 3
1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely*, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

--

* If you're riding a bus, having a piece of pizza, or dancing at a night club, being killed by a bomb is not exactly humane.

Yeti · Jul 11, 2002, 05:40 PM

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Persons taking no active part in the hostilities....shall in all circumstances be treated humanely

A.)Look at the first page of this post and realize those are palestinians
and
B.) Give a copy of this to the *American* pilot who bombed the fuck out of a troop of practicing soldiers (Yeah that friendly fire incident i recall).

No one is in any position to critisize anyone else with regards to the Geneva convention.

(Oh yeah, well we did it once and they did it more....) - Murder by any other name would stink as bad.

JavaFox · Jul 11, 2002, 05:54 PM

Yes, Yeti, atrocities have occured on both sides of the fence, but the Israeli military does not, as policy, target civilian noncombatants, while the fighting force of Palestine DOES! When are people going to realize that the Palestinians that are blowing shit up don't want peace -- they want Israel to be no more.

Yeti · Jul 11, 2002, 06:06 PM

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they want Israel to be no more.

I find that when people want something they want something. For instance i want all bad evil terrorists dead. But that ain't happenin.

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the Palestinians continue to blow up buses and night-clubs full of civilians

But i for one thing do not want any ethnic group dead .

I intend to argue to the death that there have been crimes committed by soldiers of every nation especially Israel and America. Terrorists will be charged for these crimes much more severely. There is no reason for that to be. When i see the Israeli soldier tied up in front of a firing squad and shot, then i will see the Palestinian terrorist go through the same.

And i don't really care who targets who, just who shot the bullet.

Thats my Opinion... so there (can't argue with that now can ya?

)

DallasStar · Jul 11, 2002, 06:08 PM

Since when was Israel adhering to rules? The UN asked Israel to retreat from Palestinian lands when it was first formed because they realized that it was a mistake to take away Palestinian homes. Did they retreat? NO! Did they adhere to rules? NO! And if the Israeli military doesn't target civilians, and the soldiers strictly follow those rules, how the fvck do you explain the pics I posted earlier? Those were even shown on your beloved biased media! The soldier knew what he was doing. That father and child were not just "caught in the middle". That soldier (and every other soldier) was ordered to kill every Palestinian in sight. And how will you go about explaining why Israel does not let Red Cross or any other organization come to sites of combat and take care of civilians? It obviously should be their number 1 priority to let such organizations in if they want to help civilians. Instead, they don't allow media to come in and they use that time to bury the dead civilians and act like nothing happened. Then, they go tell a bunch of bullshit to that idiot Bush and, being the gullible idiot that he is, he just makes speech after speech and some bs claims about how he's going to end terror everywhere.

So tell me Java, if killing innocent Paletinians; taking away their homes; killing their children; and raping their women isn't terrorism, then what is?

How would you feel if I just decided to take a quadrillion tanks and take over Hawaii or wherever you live and take away your home and then rape your mother and kill your father and brother and tell you that you are a terrorist?

Ijustwannaknow · Jul 11, 2002, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dallasstar
I agree 100%. (Thank GOD I'm not the only one on this forum who feels this way)
I duno why, but the world, for some reason, likes to ignore Israel's ethnic cleansing and always concentrate on the wrongs of the Palestinians.

here's another story:

Two innocent civilians (father and son) were at the wrong place and the wrong time. The Israeli soldiers were shooting. The father told them to spare his son and shoot him instead (keep in mind he's just an innocent civilian). The Israeli soldier, intrigued, decided to shoot the son first so that the father would see his son die, and then the soldier shot the father.

cool pictures

DallasStar · Jul 11, 2002, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ijustwannaknow
cool pictures

JavaFox · Jul 11, 2002, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ijustwannaknow
cool pictures

WHAT THE FUCK, DUDE?

You're probably the most intollerably STUPID person on this whole forum!

Malus · Jul 11, 2002, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dallasstar
Since when was Israel adhering to rules? The UN asked Israel to retreat from Palestinian lands when it was first formed because they realized that it was a mistake to take away Palestinian homes. Did they retreat? NO! Did they adhere to rules? NO! And if the Israeli military doesn't target civilians, and the soldiers strictly follow those rules, how the fvck do you explain the pics I posted earlier? Those were even shown on your beloved biased media! The soldier knew what he was doing. That father and child were not just "caught in the middle". That soldier (and every other soldier) was ordered to kill every Palestinian in sight. And how will you go about explaining why Israel does not let Red Cross or any other organization come to sites of combat and take care of civilians? It obviously should be their number 1 priority to let such organizations in if they want to help civilians. Instead, they don't allow media to come in and they use that time to bury the dead civilians and act like nothing happened. Then, they go tell a bunch of bullshit to that idiot Bush and, being the gullible idiot that he is, he just makes speech after speech and some bs claims about how he's going to end terror everywhere.

So tell me Java, if killing innocent Paletinians; taking away their homes; killing their children; and raping their women isn't terrorism, then what is?

How would you feel if I just decided to take a quadrillion tanks and take over Hawaii or wherever you live and take away your home and then rape your mother and kill your father and brother and tell you that you are a terrorist?

Seriously, why would anyone want to listen to the UN.

Anyway, I don't think the policy of the Israeli military is to "take away their homes, kill their children, and rape their women." Usually, there is a bunch of Palestinians causing trouble, so the army comes in and just takes out anyone. For that poor father and his son, they just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

By the way, Bush is not a gullible idiot, or an idiot for that matter. No offense, but I bet he knows a lot more than you do. You assume that he is stupid because of his poor speaking skills and awkward statements. To me, however. he just seems like the type of guy who gets nervous and says something completely stupid, heck, I do it all the time when I make speeches. I'm sure he knows a lot about what is going on over there, probably a lot more than the media does. If I were you, I'd start reading my newspaper everyday, since there is usually an article about an attack against Israel like once a week. It's pretty common.

I think your Hawaii analogy isn't a very good one. The Israeli army doesn't just randomly slaughter people. If there is a terrorist attack, they move in and try to stop it any way they can. If you look suspicious, you will most likely get killed. It's a shame, but I'm sure the people understand that the army doesn't mind killing two Palestinians after fifty Israelis just died. Can you really blame them? They let their anger get the best of them, just like you do when you try and make an argument. Describing emotions is a bad way to argue.

Malus · Jul 11, 2002, 07:06 PM

Oh yeah, and preach it JavaFox!

JavaFox · Jul 11, 2002, 07:06 PM

Firstly, dallasstar, if we are to have a decent, fair, and thoughful conversation on this subject, you are going to have to refrain from assuming things. "My beloved biased media"? Really, dallasstar? What news do I watch, and what paper do I read? Do you know? Maybe I only watch Al Jazeera. I actually got that channel for a while. So, please, make arguments, but leave assumptions out of it because, as they say, they make an ass out of u and me.

Quote:

Originally posted by dallasstar
Since when was Israel adhering to rules? The UN asked Israel to retreat from Palestinian lands when it was first formed because they realized that it was a mistake to take away Palestinian homes. Did they retreat? NO! Did they adhere to rules? NO! And if the Israeli military doesn't target civilians, and the soldiers strictly follow those rules, how the fvck do you explain the pics I posted earlier? Those were even shown on your beloved biased media! The soldier knew what he was doing. That father and child were not just "caught in the middle". That soldier (and every other soldier) was ordered to kill every Palestinian in sight.

Nobody said that Israel hasn't committed atrocities. Nobody said there hasn't been collateral damage. Shit, I didn't even say anything nice about Israel. I do not doubt that the incident you detailed is true, and that shocks and disturbs me to my very core. It makes me fucking sick that we have people like Ijustwannaknow commenting "cool pics" -- that's human suffering! You don't laugh at that. And regardless of what the Palestinians are standing for, fighting for, or believe in, no innocent deserves to get gunned down. I'm sorry if I conveyed that I did not care, because I care about people immensely.

But, dallasstar, try to see.

The Israelis have done horrible things, but if you analyze their military movements, I think you'll see that the majority of them retaliatory. Citizens get killed. Sometimes by mistake, sometimes by accident, but the policy of Israel is not to kill civilians, but to protect itself. No leader in Israel has said "Kill them indiscrimately!" It is not to say that innocents do not get killed, but that is not the policy of the country.

The policy of Palestine's fighting force, though, is to attack anyone. Do you agree with their methods? I have no problem with someone fighting for a cause, even violently. The Palestinians have a fair claim on Israeli land, but they can't try to irradicate Israel by any means! You aren't considered a freedom fighter when you kill non-military people. You are not a legitimate movement.

Quote:

So tell me Java, if killing innocent Paletinians; taking away their homes; killing their children; and raping their women isn't terrorism, then what is?

You tell ME, dallas', if your brother was killed in a suicide bombing because some crazy Texas Successionists blew up a McDonalds he was eating in, wouldn't you think it was terrorism?

Fight the military, not the people.

~~Sourcer_2002~~ · Jul 11, 2002, 07:06 PM

[qoute] cool picture [/qoute]

what the hell is worng with you?

DallasStar · Jul 11, 2002, 07:14 PM

Okay guys, whatever you say. I stand by what I said. For the sake of not starting a Flame War, you can now just pretend I don't exist in this thread. Happy? Okay now, go ahead and preach whatever BS you want. There have been over twice as many palestinians killed than israelis, so before you go making bs claims about "because 50 israelis die, israel kills 2 palestinians", I suggest you get your facts straight.

JavaFox · Jul 11, 2002, 07:21 PM

Nobody is interested in starting a flame war. I like debate. My g/f and I have this argument all the time.

You have some good points. I did not know that the Red Cross didn't operate in Israel and that, as far as I know, is a violation of the Geneva Conventions as well.

If you want to start a debate, you need to be willing to learn. If you want to throw your hands up and leave, that's fine, but I promise that you'll get no flames in this thread from me.

I conceded that I thought the Palestinians do have a legitimate claim on Israel's land and that I only disagree with their methods of fighting. Do you agree? Is it Israel's sole goal to kill Palestinians? Surely you don't believe that. Israelis do not want to irradicate the Palestinians, regardless of what some crazy, whack-ass soldiers do.

Tell me where I've been bullshitting, dallas, and I'll see if I can clear something up. Maybe you can teach me something, and maybe you can learn something from me, and we'll both be better people because of it.

Malus · Jul 11, 2002, 07:26 PM

Since when have more Palestinians died than Israelis? AFAIK, that's a load of bullshit. The Israeli Army isn't constantly killing people. They usally kill Palestinians after the Palestinians make a suicide bombing or shoot at a bunch of civilians. Yes, Palestinians do get killed, but they take a lot more innocent people with them when they die.

Malus · Jul 11, 2002, 07:29 PM

If you can point me to factual evidence that suggest that more Palestinians are killed, the maybe I'll concede my argument. You must back up your evidence if you want us to agree with your points. If you post evidence on this I will gladly read it and see the other side. However, be prepared for a bombardment of evidence supporting my views.

DallasStar · Jul 12, 2002, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JavaFox
Nobody is interested in starting a flame war. I like debate. My g/f and I have this argument all the time.

You have some good points. I did not know that the Red Cross didn't operate in Israel and that, as far as I know, is a violation of the Geneva Conventions as well.

If you want to start a debate, you need to be willing to learn. If you want to throw your hands up and leave, that's fine, but I promise that you'll get no flames in this thread from me.

I conceded that I thought the Palestinians do have a legitimate claim on Israel's land and that I only disagree with their methods of fighting. Do you agree? Is it Israel's sole goal to kill Palestinians? Surely you don't believe that. Israelis do not want to irradicate the Palestinians, regardless of what some crazy, whack-ass soldiers do.

Tell me where I've been bullshitting, dallas, and I'll see if I can clear something up. Maybe you can teach me something, and maybe you can learn something from me, and we'll both be better people because of it.

Sorry man, I misinterpreted what you said. For a while, I was thinking that you meant that Israel is doing no wrong. If you aknowledge that Israel's occupation is wrong and you think that the Palestinian suicide bombings are wrong.... then we shouldn't be arguing because we obviously feel the same way

. Sorry, I'll try to be less ignorant next time.

(no sarcasm intended)

DallasStar · Jul 12, 2002, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Malus
If you can point me to factual evidence that suggest that more Palestinians are killed, the maybe I'll concede my argument. You must back up your evidence if you want us to agree with your points. If you post evidence on this I will gladly read it and see the other side. However, be prepared for a bombardment of evidence supporting my views.

Man, you can't expect me to have a webpage all found out for everything I say. From what I know, everything I said is true. I don't feel like digging through months and months of CNN to find some article just so I can satisfy YOU.

Malus · Jul 12, 2002, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dallasstar
Man, you can't expect me to have a webpage all found out for everything I say. From what I know, everything I said is true. I don't feel like digging through months and months of CNN to find some article just so I can satisfy YOU.

You are just assuming what you think is right. Don't do that.

I don't expect you to find it all on one page. It's not supposed to be easy.

Malus · Jul 12, 2002, 03:55 AM

Yeti · Jul 12, 2002, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Man, you can't expect me to have a webpage all found out for everything I say. From what I know, everything I said is true. I don't feel like digging through months and months of CNN to find some article just so I can satisfy YOU.

You should be able to back up anything you say. It is very important... people read your words and take them for the truth.

Quote:

. And regardless of what the Palestinians are standing for, fighting for, or believe in, no innocent deserves to get gunned down.

First of all that is true. But the fact of the matter is, no evil act ever SHOULD be commited. We don't live in a perfect world though. This means that an Israeli retaliation is just as bad as a Terrorist retaliation. Neither is right. Therefore i cannot accept you singling out the Terrorists as being wrong. I have come to believe that every Israeli soldier that crosses the border is committing a crime because they willingly follow orders to pointlessly invade and (at the least) disturb normal life.

Without crime we would be living in a perfect world. I would then make the assumption that with gut-wrenching flaws that we see in the media every day... there is an almost uncontrollable flow of bad decisions and willfull wrong-doing coming from everyone, everywhere. Everyone is at fault... how to resolve the situation? Well ... short of going to the Middle East and talking to every individual one on one, and explaining to them the complexity of the situaiton, i do not see a solution.

Why do i accept terrorism? Terrorism is a functional and legitimate means to acheive an end. America and other nations have accepted guerrila tactics in the form of special operations and covert missions. Assasination and various other means have been proven to accomplish the same effects on a nation as those that would be expected from the use of mace or a nightstick on a suspect: submission and dehabilitation. People die. People die every minute. The world does not revolve around us. If there exists a situation that needs to be corrected, a person should use any logical means at his disposal to correct the sitiuation.

So, in as much as the Israeli retaliations against Palestine are legitimate, so are the terrorist attacks on the world legitimate. Do people suffer? Yes. Do i care? YES! Where do i stand on the issue? Well i don't have the right nor the reason to stand on either side: neither Israel nor Palestine. I feel, however, that in this case the Palestinians have suffered more than the Israelites.

That is the Reason for this post. And that is how i justify that "Israel should watch itself..." and start cutting the Palestinians Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more slack.

JavaFox · Jul 12, 2002, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yeti
Why do i accept terrorism? Terrorism is a functional and legitimate means to acheive an end. America and other nations have accepted guerrila tactics in the form of special operations and covert missions. Assasination and various other means have been proven to accomplish the same effects on a nation as those that would be expected from the use of mace or a nightstick on a suspect: submission and dehabilitation. People die. People die every minute. The world does not revolve around us. If there exists a situation that needs to be corrected, a person should use any logical means at his disposal to correct the sitiuation.

Dude, I think your opinion is totally repulsive, but I am amazed at your strong-willedness and respect you for it.

Covert ops and guerilla warfare are legitimate. I do not presume to call the Viet Cong terrorists. But when you target civilian noncombatants, it is internationally illegal and it should be condemned in the strongest possible terms.

The military is there to fight. You fight the military. You do not attack with the sole intention of destroying innocents. Period. Palestine will never get their own state so long as they permit Hamas to exist.

Blowing up innocents intentionally is never legitimate. NEVER.

Yeti · Jul 12, 2002, 08:19 AM

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it is internationally illegal and it should be condemned in the strongest possible terms.

Fine by me. Assasination is also illegal, but even America practices it under the table. That basically says that the Terrorists are not worse than we are by any means.

You wanna prosecute terrorists? Go ahead, but i wanna put a couple of Presidents and CIA agents next to them. (oh lets say the Fidel Castro assasination attempts?)

Quote:

But when you target civilian noncombatants

I do believe i have already replied to that, but let me reiterate.
You and i are both soldiers, so is everyone else. We just haven't picked up a gun yet.

Oh and by the way... What is the differnce between September 11 and Hiroshima or Nagasaki???!!!! I do believe that America wrote the book on Terrorism!

Malus · Jul 12, 2002, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yeti
Fine by me. Assasination is also illegal, but even America practices it under the table. That basically says that the Terrorists are not worse than we are by any means.

You wanna prosecute terrorists? Go ahead, but i wanna put a couple of Presidents and CIA agents next to them. (oh lets say the Fidel Castro assasination attempts?)

Is Fidel Castro an innocent bystander?

Quote:

Originally posted by Yeti
I do believe i have already replied to that, but let me reiterate.
You and i are both soldiers, so is everyone else. We just haven't picked up a gun yet.

Nobody has to be a soldier. You don't have to fight. Whether you live or not after you make that decision is really up to you.

Quote:

Originally posted by Yeti
Oh and by the way... What is the differnce between September 11 and Hiroshima or Nagasaki???!!!! I do believe that America wrote the book on Terrorism!

The difference is that we were not only in war, but we gave them a fair warning as to what might occur. They did have the option to surrender.

Also, I believe that bombing those two cities was the best way to end the war. If we had not bombed them, we most likely would have to of invaded Japan, which would probably take more than a year. Also, an invasion of Japan would of lead to a staggering amount of casualties on both sides of the field. Obviously, the U.S. would want to minimize it's losses and end the war as quickly as possible, so using a bomb to end the war quickly was the best way out. You could say that it is unethical, but in other wars, there were many civilian casualties due to bombing as well. Many other countries did it, not just us.

Yeti · Jul 12, 2002, 12:07 PM

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Is Fidel Castro an innocent bystander?

I think you should anwser that question, as i have no reason to believe otherwise....

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Nobody has to be a soldier. You don't have to fight. Whether you live or not after you make that decision is really up to you.

And you have to fill out forms in triplicate to shoot me? I don't think so... the fact of the matter is... you have opinions... you will defend them... at a certain point (oh lets say someone is raping your sister? {BTW, not related to the P vs. I question just an example}) ... you will react in a violent manner. You me and everyone else here is a soldier, they just haven't been pushed to the point of picking up a gun YET.

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The difference is that we were not only in war, but we gave them a fair warning as to what might occur. They did have the option to surrender.

So when there is a "legal" document saying that you are at war its legal to target civilians? Ok... that explains why you think Israelites have the right to massacre Palestinians but not the other way around. It's cuz its official right?

Oh and by the way... "They did have the option to surrender"... thats like pointing a gun at someones head and saying - "Either you are with us or you are dead". You are FORCING your opinions and beliefs on another person. That is more immoral than killing someone, that is wrong, that is against the opinions of the Framers of the Constitution and that and that is a violation of one of the "Inaliable rights" guaranteed to us in our society. I cannot begin to convey to you how much worse this is than any crime of property or life.... this is someones soul you are commiting a crime against.

No matter how wrong you think someon's opinion is, it is not your right to force them to change it. That is outside of accepted actions in our society. It is also why we put convicts into prisons instead of brainwashing them. In the case of extremely bad convicts... we give them the death penalty because we judge that they will never return to the norms of our society. Never does any court even presume to try and change someones belief.

---------------------------

Quote:

First of all that is true. But the fact of the matter is, no evil act ever SHOULD be commited. We don't live in a perfect world though. This means that an Israeli retaliation is just as bad as a Terrorist retaliation. Neither is right. Therefore i cannot accept you singling out the Terrorists as being wrong. I have come to believe that every Israeli soldier that crosses the border is committing a crime because they willingly follow orders to pointlessly invade and (at the least) disturb normal life.

Quote:

You wanna prosecute terrorists? Go ahead, but i wanna put a couple of Presidents and CIA agents next to them. (oh lets say the Fidel Castro assasination attempts?)

Quote:

Why do i accept terrorism? Terrorism is a functional and legitimate means to acheive an end. America and other nations have accepted guerrila tactics in the form of special operations and covert missions. Assasination and various other means have been proven to accomplish the same effects on a nation as those that would be expected from the use of mace or a nightstick on a suspect: submission and dehabilitation. People die. People die every minute. The world does not revolve around us. If there exists a situation that needs to be corrected, a person should use any logical means at his disposal to correct the sitiuation.

[size=large] I am not a terrorist. I do not condone terrorism. Unfortunately terrorism works and thus i accept it as logical. It is, however, the individuals right to decide whether terrorism is right or wrong and in light of our crimes and the crimes of our fathers we cannot judge the terrorists for making their (obvious) decision. This is in line with a policy of the freedom of the mind and soul first and foremost, where i would put the terrorists right to form his mind above the lives of others. If you believe me to be wrong... well then i simply disagree and that is the end of our quarrel. And once again let me state that i personally wish all terrorists were dead but it aint happenin [/size]

Malus · Jul 12, 2002, 12:21 PM

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Originally posted by Yeti
I think you should anwser that question, as i have no reason to believe otherwise....

I think Castro has done enough wrong to deserve death.

Quote:

Originally posted by Yeti
And you have to fill out forms in triplicate to shoot me? I don't think so... the fact of the matter is... you have opinions... you will defend them... at a certain point (oh lets say someone is raping your sister? {BTW, not related to the P vs. I question just an example}) ... you will react in a violent manner. You me and everyone else here is a soldier, they just haven't been pushed to the point of picking up a gun YET.

What does filling out forms have to do with choosing not to fight? And what does my sister being raped have anything to do with being a soldier? Just because there is violence doesn't mean that there is a soldier. You aren't a soldier if you beat someone up for raping your sister.

Quote:

Originally posted by Yeti
So when there is a "legal" document saying that you are at war its legal to target civilians? Ok... that explains why you think Israelites have the right to massacre Palestinians but not the other way around. It's cuz its official right?

I never said it was legal. I feel that in a war, however, civilian casualties are inevitable, whether they are intentional or accidental.

Quote:

Originally posted by Yeti
Oh and by the way... "They did have the option to surrender"... thats like pointing a gun at someones head and saying - "Either you are with us or you are dead". You are FORCING your opinions and beliefs on another person. That is more immoral than killing someone, that is wrong, that is against the opinions of the Framers of the Constitution and that and that is a violation of one of the "Inaliable rights" guaranteed to us in our society. I cannot begin to convey to you how much worse this is than any crime of property or life.... this is someones soul you are commiting a crime against.

We didn't force any beliefs. We were fighting a war. We told them that we wouldn't attack them if they conceded. We didn't force anything. They could of easily called a truce and gotten out of it. They made the decision to keep fighting for a worthless cause.

Quote:

Originally posted by Yeti
No matter how wrong you think someon's opinion is, it is not your right to force them to change it. That is outside of accepted actions in our society. It is also why we put convicts into prisons instead of brainwashing them. In the case of extremely bad convicts... we give them the death penalty because we judge that they will never return to the norms of our society. Never does any court even presume to try and change someones belief.

WAR IS NOT AN OPINION!

Quote:

Originally posted by Yeti
[size=large] I am not a terrorist. I do not condone terrorism. Unfortunately terrorism works and thus i accept it as logical. It is, however, the individuals right to decide whether terrorism is right or wrong and in light of our crimes and the crimes of our fathers we cannot judge the terrorists for making their (obvious) decision. This is in line with a policy of the freedom of the mind and soul first and foremost, where i would put the terrorists right to form his mind above the lives of others. If you believe me to be wrong... well then i simply disagree and that is the end of our quarrel. And once again let me state that i personally wish all terrorists were dead but it aint happenin [/size]

Didn't you just contradict yourself? Or am I mistaken?

Yeti · Jul 12, 2002, 04:48 PM

Quote:

WAR IS NOT AN OPINION!

Really? I would argue, quite simply, that your point is also an opinion and does not constitute a fact in the light of inquisition. (for instance: anwser the question of why is war not an opinion? )

I feel as if i am being hounded to death here. I have been defending my opinions for several days now because it seems they are the wrong ones to have. I do believe i should have followed dallas's lead when he left this post sensing the political tension. I will refrain from associating with him or anyone else from now on because it seems i am now the black sheep and that is attention no one wants.

I do have some things to say that in retrospect i think i should have said earlier. I view the Israeli Palestinian conflict as another incident in the annals of squashed cultures along with the Native American Indians. I feel no need to defend my previous statments regarding my thoughts on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, September 11th or the Palestinian Terrorists Vs. Israeli Soldiers. These opinions were formed in light of circumstancial evidence on top of my belief structure, and the acts of "terrorism" carried out by the U.S. and Terrorists etc. were judged accordingly.

In closing i would like to appologize to all of the driverheaven.net members who have read this thread and have misinterpreted it. It is my fault for not making my opinions clear and pushing them too far, too fast. The only thing i can say for my defense is that at the time of this threads first post and throughout its body i was enraged by an event that i viewed as being very close to home. It is my belief that Universities and other places of learning are sacred, as a church very well may be to a christian.

It is my intent not to post anything on the subject of politics on this forum again. I do, however, intend to continue this thread but in a more appropriate forum (perhaps one with a philosophical motif). I do intend to post details on where to find this thread for those interested in following up with this conversation in the near future (1 week or so). In the mean time i am compiling a full address to the issues i have raised in this post in a more formal manner.

Thank you all,
It has been a wonderful and enlightening conversation.

P.S.
If you would like to contact me for any reason with regards to this matter or any other, you should use the e-mail button next to my member name in the member listing.
If you prefer, you can also reach me at green_prophet@yahoo.com.

Jul 11, 2002, 06:08 PM	#38
DallasStar Junior Join Date: May 2002 Location: Wave Existence Posts: 2,065 Rep Power: 0	Since when was Israel adhering to rules? The UN asked Israel to retreat from Palestinian lands when it was first formed because they realized that it was a mistake to take away Palestinian homes. Did they retreat? NO! Did they adhere to rules? NO! And if the Israeli military doesn't target civilians, and the soldiers strictly follow those rules, how the fvck do you explain the pics I posted earlier? Those were even shown on your beloved biased media! The soldier knew what he was doing. That father and child were not just "caught in the middle". That soldier (and every other soldier) was ordered to kill every Palestinian in sight. And how will you go about explaining why Israel does not let Red Cross or any other organization come to sites of combat and take care of civilians? It obviously should be their number 1 priority to let such organizations in if they want to help civilians. Instead, they don't allow media to come in and they use that time to bury the dead civilians and act like nothing happened. Then, they go tell a bunch of bullshit to that idiot Bush and, being the gullible idiot that he is, he just makes speech after speech and some bs claims about how he's going to end terror everywhere. So tell me Java, if killing innocent Paletinians; taking away their homes; killing their children; and raping their women isn't terrorism, then what is? How would you feel if I just decided to take a quadrillion tanks and take over Hawaii or wherever you live and take away your home and then rape your mother and kill your father and brother and tell you that you are a terrorist? __________________ "A picture of my existence... would show a useless wooden stake covered in snow... stuck loosely at a slant in the ground in a ploughed field on the edge of a vast open plain on a dark winter night." --- Franz Kafka

Jul 11, 2002, 07:06 PM	#43
Malus BSD SMASH! Join Date: May 2002 Location: A rabbit hole. . . Posts: 1,170 Rep Power: 0	Oh yeah, and preach it JavaFox! __________________ quad (FreeBSD/amd64 8-CURRENT): Intel Q6600 - Asus P5E-VM HDMI - 2x2 GB Kingston PC6400 DDR2 Ram - Seagate 320GB 7200RPM HD - 2xSeagate 1TB 7200RPM HD in RAID 1 via ZFS - Lite-On 20x DVD Multi Recorder - Coolermaster Centurion 5 router (FreeBSD/amd64 8-CURRENT): Intel E4500 - Intel D945GCNL - 2 GB PC6400 Mushkin Ram - Lite-On 48x24x48x16 - Seagate 320GB 7200RPM HD - Silverstone SST-SG02-F wanderer (FreeBSD/i386 7-CURRENT): Lenovo Thinkpad T61p mini (OS X 10.5): Intel Core 2 Duo @ 1.8Ghz, 4 GB Mushkin PC5400 Ram - Headroom MicroDAC Portable sound: Rockboxed iPod Video -> Westone UM2's Not-So-Portable Sound: Headroon MicroDAC -> Singlepower PPX3-SLAM -> Grado RS-1's or Beyerdynamic DT-880's Very-Not-Portable-Sound: Squeezebox v3 -> Denon AVR-1507 -> B&W 683's & Sunfire HRS-10

Jul 11, 2002, 07:14 PM	#46
DallasStar Junior Join Date: May 2002 Location: Wave Existence Posts: 2,065 Rep Power: 0	Okay guys, whatever you say. I stand by what I said. For the sake of not starting a Flame War, you can now just pretend I don't exist in this thread. Happy? Okay now, go ahead and preach whatever BS you want. There have been over twice as many palestinians killed than israelis, so before you go making bs claims about "because 50 israelis die, israel kills 2 palestinians", I suggest you get your facts straight. __________________ "A picture of my existence... would show a useless wooden stake covered in snow... stuck loosely at a slant in the ground in a ploughed field on the edge of a vast open plain on a dark winter night." --- Franz Kafka

Jul 11, 2002, 07:26 PM	#48
Malus BSD SMASH! Join Date: May 2002 Location: A rabbit hole. . . Posts: 1,170 Rep Power: 0	Since when have more Palestinians died than Israelis? AFAIK, that's a load of bullshit. The Israeli Army isn't constantly killing people. They usally kill Palestinians after the Palestinians make a suicide bombing or shoot at a bunch of civilians. Yes, Palestinians do get killed, but they take a lot more innocent people with them when they die. __________________ quad (FreeBSD/amd64 8-CURRENT): Intel Q6600 - Asus P5E-VM HDMI - 2x2 GB Kingston PC6400 DDR2 Ram - Seagate 320GB 7200RPM HD - 2xSeagate 1TB 7200RPM HD in RAID 1 via ZFS - Lite-On 20x DVD Multi Recorder - Coolermaster Centurion 5 router (FreeBSD/amd64 8-CURRENT): Intel E4500 - Intel D945GCNL - 2 GB PC6400 Mushkin Ram - Lite-On 48x24x48x16 - Seagate 320GB 7200RPM HD - Silverstone SST-SG02-F wanderer (FreeBSD/i386 7-CURRENT): Lenovo Thinkpad T61p mini (OS X 10.5): Intel Core 2 Duo @ 1.8Ghz, 4 GB Mushkin PC5400 Ram - Headroom MicroDAC Portable sound: Rockboxed iPod Video -> Westone UM2's Not-So-Portable Sound: Headroon MicroDAC -> Singlepower PPX3-SLAM -> Grado RS-1's or Beyerdynamic DT-880's Very-Not-Portable-Sound: Squeezebox v3 -> Denon AVR-1507 -> B&W 683's & Sunfire HRS-10

Jul 11, 2002, 07:29 PM	#49
Malus BSD SMASH! Join Date: May 2002 Location: A rabbit hole. . . Posts: 1,170 Rep Power: 0	If you can point me to factual evidence that suggest that more Palestinians are killed, the maybe I'll concede my argument. You must back up your evidence if you want us to agree with your points. If you post evidence on this I will gladly read it and see the other side. However, be prepared for a bombardment of evidence supporting my views. __________________ quad (FreeBSD/amd64 8-CURRENT): Intel Q6600 - Asus P5E-VM HDMI - 2x2 GB Kingston PC6400 DDR2 Ram - Seagate 320GB 7200RPM HD - 2xSeagate 1TB 7200RPM HD in RAID 1 via ZFS - Lite-On 20x DVD Multi Recorder - Coolermaster Centurion 5 router (FreeBSD/amd64 8-CURRENT): Intel E4500 - Intel D945GCNL - 2 GB PC6400 Mushkin Ram - Lite-On 48x24x48x16 - Seagate 320GB 7200RPM HD - Silverstone SST-SG02-F wanderer (FreeBSD/i386 7-CURRENT): Lenovo Thinkpad T61p mini (OS X 10.5): Intel Core 2 Duo @ 1.8Ghz, 4 GB Mushkin PC5400 Ram - Headroom MicroDAC Portable sound: Rockboxed iPod Video -> Westone UM2's Not-So-Portable Sound: Headroon MicroDAC -> Singlepower PPX3-SLAM -> Grado RS-1's or Beyerdynamic DT-880's Very-Not-Portable-Sound: Squeezebox v3 -> Denon AVR-1507 -> B&W 683's & Sunfire HRS-10

Jul 11, 2002, 05:54 PM	#36
JavaFox E Pluribus Unum Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,203 Rep Power: 0	Yes, Yeti, atrocities have occured on both sides of the fence, but the Israeli military does not, as policy, target civilian noncombatants, while the fighting force of Palestine DOES! When are people going to realize that the Palestinians that are blowing shit up don't want peace -- they want Israel to be no more.

Jul 11, 2002, 07:06 PM	#45
~~Sourcer_2002~~ BANNED Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Indiana , USA Posts: 2,677 Rep Power: 0	[qoute] cool picture [/qoute] what the hell is worng with you?

Jul 11, 2002, 07:21 PM	#47
JavaFox E Pluribus Unum Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,203 Rep Power: 0	Nobody is interested in starting a flame war. I like debate. My g/f and I have this argument all the time. You have some good points. I did not know that the Red Cross didn't operate in Israel and that, as far as I know, is a violation of the Geneva Conventions as well. If you want to start a debate, you need to be willing to learn. If you want to throw your hands up and leave, that's fine, but I promise that you'll get no flames in this thread from me. I conceded that I thought the Palestinians do have a legitimate claim on Israel's land and that I only disagree with their methods of fighting. Do you agree? Is it Israel's sole goal to kill Palestinians? Surely you don't believe that. Israelis do not want to irradicate the Palestinians, regardless of what some crazy, whack-ass soldiers do. Tell me where I've been bullshitting, dallas, and I'll see if I can clear something up. Maybe you can teach me something, and maybe you can learn something from me, and we'll both be better people because of it.

Jul 12, 2002, 03:55 AM	#53
Malus BSD SMASH! Join Date: May 2002 Location: A rabbit hole. . . Posts: 1,170 Rep Power: 0	Here are articles that detail attacks against Israel dating back to March of 2002: http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...ast/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...ims/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...ics/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...ast/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...ast/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...ion/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...ast/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...ast/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...tsc/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...ast/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...ion/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa...ast/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe...ack/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...ast/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...ing/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...ast/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...car/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...ast/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...ast/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...kes/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...ast/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...omb/index.html This is just messed up: http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...oto/index.html The Israelis live in constant fear: http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...ive/index.html Even Israeli paramedics can't stand it: http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...two/index.html I'd go find more, but I don't know if I really have to. Also notice that all the articles came from one site. __________________ quad (FreeBSD/amd64 8-CURRENT): Intel Q6600 - Asus P5E-VM HDMI - 2x2 GB Kingston PC6400 DDR2 Ram - Seagate 320GB 7200RPM HD - 2xSeagate 1TB 7200RPM HD in RAID 1 via ZFS - Lite-On 20x DVD Multi Recorder - Coolermaster Centurion 5 router (FreeBSD/amd64 8-CURRENT): Intel E4500 - Intel D945GCNL - 2 GB PC6400 Mushkin Ram - Lite-On 48x24x48x16 - Seagate 320GB 7200RPM HD - Silverstone SST-SG02-F wanderer (FreeBSD/i386 7-CURRENT): Lenovo Thinkpad T61p mini (OS X 10.5): Intel Core 2 Duo @ 1.8Ghz, 4 GB Mushkin PC5400 Ram - Headroom MicroDAC Portable sound: Rockboxed iPod Video -> Westone UM2's Not-So-Portable Sound: Headroon MicroDAC -> Singlepower PPX3-SLAM -> Grado RS-1's or Beyerdynamic DT-880's Very-Not-Portable-Sound: Squeezebox v3 -> Denon AVR-1507 -> B&W 683's & Sunfire HRS-10