The forgotten Holocaust

FuNsTeR · Dec 10, 2003, 02:00 PM

Seven million died in the 'forgotten' holocaust

Eric Margolis – Toronto Sun November 16, 2003

Five years ago, I wrote about the unknown Holocaust in Ukraine. I was shocked to receive a flood of mail from young Americans and Canadians of Ukrainian descent telling me that until they read my column, they knew nothing of the 1932-33 genocide in which Josef Stalin's Soviet regime murdered seven million Ukrainians and sent two million more to concentration camps.

How, I wondered, could such historical amnesia afflict so many? For Jews and Armenians, the genocides their people suffered are vivid, living memories that influence their daily lives. Yet today, on the 70th anniversary of the destruction of a quarter of Ukraine's population, this titanic crime has almost vanished into history's black hole.

Click Here to read the rest

blade5545 · Dec 10, 2003, 02:37 PM

Very easy its called Communism I lived 10 years under it.

BluntmaN · Dec 10, 2003, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by blade5545
Very easy its called Communism I lived 10 years under it.

Firstly Communism is in idea totaly different from what was aplied by Stalin (and most of the communist leaderships around the globe) who was a dictator!!! The above article talks about genocide and it poses a very good question why is this genocide forgoten along with so many other?

The answer is given once you read the rest of the article.

blade5545 · Dec 11, 2003, 02:20 AM

What the fuck!!! Obviously you did not think hard enough about whay I said.

dictator

\Dic*ta"tor\, n. [L.] 1. One who dictates; one who prescribes rules and maxims authoritatively for the direction of others. --Locke.

2. One invested with absolute authority; especially, a magistrate created in times of exigence and distress, and invested with unlimited power.

DONT FUCKING TELL ME WHAT COMMUNISM IS AND WHAT IT IS NOT, I WAS BORN UNDER MARTIAL LAW YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS NO CONSITUTION NO RIGHTS NO NOTHING, I LIVED RIGHT ACROSS FROM THE COMMUNIST PARTY BUILDING I SAW DEMONSTRATIONS EVERY WEEKEND RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY HOUSE WITH PEOPLE GETTING THE HELL BEAT OUT OF THEM BY THE FUCKING MILLITARY WITH TANKS, I WENT TO MILITARY SCHOOL WHERE THEY BRAINWASHED YOU AS BEST THEY COULD PICTURES OF STALIN AND LENIN ON EVERY WALL AND BEING PROCLAIMED AS THE HEROS, I SAW PEOPLE DIE RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY EYES GETTING THE BEAT BY THE MILITARY AND THE SECRET POLICE, MY UNCLE GOT BEAT TO DEATH BY THE SECRET POLICE HE WAS ONLY 31 AND MY ENTIRE FAMILY WAS THRETENED WITH DEATH IF WE HAPPEN TO INQUIRE WHY. IMAGINE STANDING IN LINE FOR 6 HOURS FOR A ONE LOAF OF BREAD WHEN YOUR 6 YEARS OLD AND LIVING WITH GOVERMENT IMPOSED RATIONS. IMAGINE WATCHING THE NEWS WHERE ALL YOU GET IS GOVERMENT PROPAGANDA AND YOU NO ACCESS TO WESTERN NEWS. ARE YOU REALLY THAT STUPID TO THINK THAT THE GOVERMENT WOULD TEACH FUTURE GENERATIONS THAT THEY ITS OWN GOVERMENT MURDERED 7 MILLION OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY A CUMMUNIST GOVERMENT WHICH DEPENDS ON ITS ABILITY TO BRAINWASH ITS YOUTH SO THEY PROUDLY CALLED THEMSELVES COMRADES AND WAVE THE FUCKING RED FLAG AND GO AFTER ITS OWN PEOPLE. MY GRANDFATHER LIVED ALL HIS LIFE WITH AN PUNCTURED LUNG THAT HE GOT WHEN HE WAS YOUNG NO HOSPITAL WOULD ACCEPT HIM SINCE HE WAS BLACK LISTED BY THE GOVERMENT AS THE ENEMY OF COMMUNIST REGIME. I LIVED UNDER THAT REGIME YOU DONT HAVE SLIGHTEST CLUE. DONT TALK ABOUT SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT JUST BECAUSE SOMEBODY TAUGHT YOU THAT AT SCHOOL DOES NOT MEAN YOU KNOW IT BETTER THAN SOMEBODY WHICH LIVED UNDER IT. YOU OBVIOUSLY BEEN SPOILED BY THE IDEA OF DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM TO THE POINT THAT YOU CANT SEE HOW ANOBODY WOULD NOT KNOW ABOUT SOMETHING WHICH HAPPEND IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY IF ITS IN THE INTREST OF THE GOVERMENT THEN THEY CAN SWEEP 7 MILLON LIVES UNDER THE CARPET WITH NO PROBLEMS ITS CALLED TOTAL CONTROL AND THAT IS TRUE DICTATORSHIP.

~~craig588~~ · Dec 11, 2003, 02:25 AM

I know aobut it, and I'm 15 so I dont think its as "forgotten" as people think.....

digerati · Dec 11, 2003, 02:29 AM

Like craig I'm young at 17 and I know about it. But I like to blanket it under the evils of Stalin rather than a specific genocide like the Jews or Armenians.

merry · Dec 11, 2003, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BluntmaN
Firstly Communism is in idea totaly different from what was aplied

And so is Coca Cola. The original idea, the advertisement and the actual product are three separate realities. Original Coca Cola contained cocaine... so did Marx's manifesto. Actual Coca Cola makes a good toilet cleaner

I have a 24 year record of living inside the utopia. My grandfather (father's father) was beaten to death by police for sticking posters of a "traditional" political party (later outlawed, but legal at the time); on a lighter note, somebody else spent years in political prison/forced labour camps for lighting the cigarette of a passer by, not knowing that that guy was followed by the political police. And we had the 7/3 jokes, 7 years the telling, 3 the listening

and yes, in the 50's and 60's people went to prison for telling - or even listening to - political jokes.

My father was then 11, he worked to earn his living ever since. He had to hide his "unhealthy origin" and he only told the story to mother some five years after communism was gone. And I recall too being nr. 1035 or something like that, on a queue for meat.

Have you noticed how all dictators have some great scheme/appealing idea that gets them on top of their community. In most cases they are thought of as heroes, before they become monsters to the public eye. I recall an article in Time (sometime in 67) praising Ceausescu (Romanian dictator), and he was quite popular in his country, too. 22 years later his army with tanks and all was trampling over "hooligans" on the streets.

People shouldn't get high on ideas, don't you think?

PS @ blade5545 where are you from mate?

blade5545 · Dec 11, 2003, 05:18 PM

I was born in Szczecin, Poland the biggest port in Poland so I lived right in the middle of the Solidarity movment which was started by Lech Walesa.

toddsmack2k · Dec 11, 2003, 05:46 PM

Guys I know everyone has very passionate thoughts and views on politics and the things that have went on in thier lives but please refrain on the language.

Oblivious · Dec 11, 2003, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by blade5545
What the fuck!!! Obviously you did not think hard enough about whay I said.

dictator

\Dic*ta"tor\, n. [L.] 1. One who dictates; one who prescribes rules and maxims authoritatively for the direction of others. --Locke.

2. One invested with absolute authority; especially, a magistrate created in times of exigence and distress, and invested with unlimited power.

DONT FUCKING TELL ME WHAT COMMUNISM IS AND WHAT IT IS NOT, I WAS BORN UNDER MARTIAL LAW YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS NO CONSITUTION NO RIGHTS NO NOTHING, I LIVED RIGHT ACROSS FROM THE COMMUNIST PARTY BUILDING I SAW DEMONSTRATIONS EVERY WEEKEND RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY HOUSE WITH PEOPLE GETTING THE HELL BEAT OUT OF THEM BY THE FUCKING MILLITARY WITH TANKS, I WENT TO MILITARY SCHOOL WHERE THEY BRAINWASHED YOU AS BEST THEY COULD PICTURES OF STALIN AND LENIN ON EVERY WALL AND BEING PROCLAIMED AS THE HEROS, I SAW PEOPLE DIE RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY EYES GETTING THE BEAT BY THE MILITARY AND THE SECRET POLICE, MY UNCLE GOT BEAT TO DEATH BY THE SECRET POLICE HE WAS ONLY 31 AND MY ENTIRE FAMILY WAS THRETENED WITH DEATH IF WE HAPPEN TO INQUIRE WHY. IMAGINE STANDING IN LINE FOR 6 HOURS FOR A ONE LOAF OF BREAD WHEN YOUR 6 YEARS OLD AND LIVING WITH GOVERMENT IMPOSED RATIONS. IMAGINE WATCHING THE NEWS WHERE ALL YOU GET IS GOVERMENT PROPAGANDA AND YOU NO ACCESS TO WESTERN NEWS. ARE YOU REALLY THAT STUPID TO THINK THAT THE GOVERMENT WOULD TEACH FUTURE GENERATIONS THAT THEY ITS OWN GOVERMENT MURDERED 7 MILLION OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY A CUMMUNIST GOVERMENT WHICH DEPENDS ON ITS ABILITY TO BRAINWASH ITS YOUTH SO THEY PROUDLY CALLED THEMSELVES COMRADES AND WAVE THE FUCKING RED FLAG AND GO AFTER ITS OWN PEOPLE. MY GRANDFATHER LIVED ALL HIS LIFE WITH AN PUNCTURED LUNG THAT HE GOT WHEN HE WAS YOUNG NO HOSPITAL WOULD ACCEPT HIM SINCE HE WAS BLACK LISTED BY THE GOVERMENT AS THE ENEMY OF COMMUNIST REGIME. I LIVED UNDER THAT REGIME YOU DONT HAVE SLIGHTEST CLUE. DONT TALK ABOUT SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT JUST BECAUSE SOMEBODY TAUGHT YOU THAT AT SCHOOL DOES NOT MEAN YOU KNOW IT BETTER THAN SOMEBODY WHICH LIVED UNDER IT. YOU OBVIOUSLY BEEN SPOILED BY THE IDEA OF DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM TO THE POINT THAT YOU CANT SEE HOW ANOBODY WOULD NOT KNOW ABOUT SOMETHING WHICH HAPPEND IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY IF ITS IN THE INTREST OF THE GOVERMENT THEN THEY CAN SWEEP 7 MILLON LIVES UNDER THE CARPET WITH NO PROBLEMS ITS CALLED TOTAL CONTROL AND THAT IS TRUE DICTATORSHIP.

Just shut up. So you lived in a "communist" country, whoop dee doo. So did half of the whole friggin world ( and half of the world still does live under "communism"). So did I for that matter. You were traumatized by what happened in your life: I cry for you.

But that still does not give you the right to go berserk. ( "Oh he lived in the soviet bloc, he's traumatized, it's ok!!!???" )

Communism killed how many millions of people? ( pick a number ). Now how many millions of people did slavery kill in America? It doesn't matter what a countries political system is; Democrats, Fascists, Communists, Dictators: they all practiced genocide. And it doesn't matter to me who killed more, or who stopped first: they are all going to hell.

Wait, didn't the Christians slaughter Muslims during the crusades? What was that guys name ... oh yeah: KING RICHARD LIONHEART. Well I guess christians are just a bunch of zealous, homicidal, xenophobic pricks ( pardon my language ), right?

The soviet system is just another vanilla-flavored regime that had it's run. It will be dwarfed in the future by more belligerent and paranoid dictators and institutions. ( You have my guarantee on that )

This is the point: the Soviet Union did not represent communism. No nation has. Communism is an idealistic system in which everyone is supposed to be happy, share and get along. There is nothing in the tenets of Communism about promoting dictators or commiting genocide.

My advice to you: There are many countries today that are labeled "Communist" but are not. It is not right to call them communist. Feel free to bash dictators, I know I do. But stay away from insulting the communist system because then you would be the one acting prejudiced: bashing a noble ideal for something completely unrelated.

Edited for spelling

blade5545 · Dec 11, 2003, 07:30 PM

So according to you I cannot get pissed of about a system which almost killed of my family beacause it was a noble idea in the a book, it was far from noble in reality, human nature wont allow for a system like that even if the intention was noble we as human beings have to have room to grow and excel and better ourselves otherwise we have no reason to exist. The system of Communism is setup for a dictatorship from the start beacuse in order to live in that utopian world you have to have someone who is supreme in every way and passes on what is right and what is wrong to the rest of the society and that will only work with one leader and every body else follows without question that essentialy is a dictatorship. Communism may have been a great idea but so is me walking on water but as we all know it will never happen. Every goverment which has adopted that idea calls itself communist goverment but since human nature does not allows for such system to function without curruption it will become a evil regime. If all people do is evil in the name of a specific idea I will fight agains the idea itself, since the idea itself encourouges nothing but evil behaviour no matter what its orignal intentions were.

Oblivious · Dec 11, 2003, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by blade5545
So according to you I cannot get pissed of about a system which almost killed of my family beacause it was a noble idea in the a book, it was far from noble in reality, human nature wont allow for a system like that even if the intention was noble we as human beings have to have room to grow and excel and better ourselves otherwise we have no reason to exist. The system of Communism is setup for a dictatorship from the start beacuse in order to live in that utopian world you have to have someone who is supreme in every way and passes on what is right and what is wrong to the rest of the society and that will only work with one leader and every body else follows without question that essentialy is a dictatorship. Communism may have been a great idea but so is me walking on water but as we all know it will never happen. Every goverment which has adopted that idea calls itself communist goverment but since human nature does not allows for such system to function without curruption it will become a evil regime. If all people do is evil in the name of a specific idea I will fight agains the idea itself, since the idea itself encourouges nothing but evil behaviour no matter what its orignal intentions were.

Nope absolutely not, you can't get pissed at communism at all. You can get pissed at Stalin, Lenin or whoever you want. You can also get pissed at dictators in general. But you can't get pissed at communism. ( Without being prejudiced against communsim/communists )

Communism is not totalitarianism. Communism does not encompass a system of government. It is possible for there to be democratic communism ( as opposed to , for instance, democratic capitalism or republican communism ).

If you don't believe that communism can exist without foul play, and you believe that humans ( or a part of us ) will always lie, cheat, steal and corrupt: then that is your belief. I can't change it and I don't intend to try. But I will never agree with you because I believe that humanity is inherently good and as a result I believe that communism can exist.

Am I naive? Maybe. But if our world is destined to be plagued by crime forever, then it's a world I don't want to live in.

BWX · Dec 11, 2003, 09:04 PM

You are so right blade. Some people just couldn't resist the brainwashing as well as you did I suppose.

FuNsTeR · Dec 12, 2003, 09:37 AM

the point of the whole thread was the wests turning a blind eye to a Evil Dictator who murdered 25 - 30 million of his fellow soviets in cold blood , whom was fighting another evil dictator who was responsible for massequring at least 12 million civillians in cold blood around 50 - 55% whom were German born, the only differance being was the west (Roosevelt) refered to him as "Uncle Joe" even knowing full well what Stalin had done to his own people in the name of progress *sic*

not forgeting the countless millions more Stalins forces butchered , tortured and raped in countries his forces liberated *sic* all this for a failed ideal

BluntmaN · Dec 12, 2003, 11:48 AM

Blade I have not lived in a dictatorship myself but my familly has and I do know what it is like since I have studied the subject. What is the most interesting thing is that what you described is NOT communism which is an idea that is very good but inaplicable.

Communism is not meant to be a dictatorship but many dictators used it to get public support this does not mean that other political ideas have not been twisted and warped from a dictator. In Greece we had the capitalist dictatorship during which communists were sent in islands to work to death. It lasted about 7 years during which thousands were shot dead for being anything other than a sheep and hundreds of thousands were tortured for listening to a communist song. You see the soviets are not the only dictators and it doesnt matter which idea they say they believe in, they are dictators.

By the way just because I am not willing to discard a utopic idea does not mean that I believe in it. Another interesting thing is you mentioning walking on water which is a christian mirracle. If you look close to Jesus's teachings you ll see that he was the first communist and also an anarchist. He who has to cloacks should give one to the poor (communists) also he went against established authority and also said that you dont have to be in church or be a christian in order to be accepted by God (anarchist ideas). Other nice examples are the wipping of the merchants in church (anti-cappitalist) and also the well known: "It is easier for a cammel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to be let in the kingdom of heaven." (anti-capitalist idea as well). Certainly Jesus also had some pagan ideas as eat this bread it is my body (cannibalism!!!!) drink this wine it is my blood (Vampirism). The only point I am trying to make is that no idea (including christianity) is perfect it is not tho the original idea that is put to use it is always the watered down version of it that sells. Just because some crasy guy kills a million people in the name of an idea this does not mean that the idea is to blame.

Funster Stallin's crimes where never prosecuted because it was he who beat Hitler in the end. The allies didnt want their best friend to be branded a criminal. In the end of ww2 no one wanted to point fingers at Stallin because although he was a monster he helped us to kill a monster. The allies could not win ww2 without Stallin and could not go against him either and now in order to not look like criminals they dont want us to remember his crimes.

Finally remember that Stallin also threw 25 million of his own people without weapons against the Nazis which is also a crime but the end justifies the means right? No one is blaming him of sending unarmed troops and civilians against the best military machine since the roman empire. The reason? We could NOT do it without him.

blade5545 · Dec 12, 2003, 01:57 PM

Leaders with absolute power which do not allow themselves to become currupt are rare and extrodinary but they never last long mainly beacuse peope which hunger for that power and are without morals, unfurtently that is human nature thats why a utopian system like that will never exist, I remeber somebody saying this in one the Star Trek epsiodes "human race is capable of so much beauty and good but at the same time its capable of such horroudous crimes" what makes us unique is also our greatest downfall. And the idea of Democratic Communism thats like night and day it will never exist at the same time, Democracy allows for free choice that very idea destroys any concept of it ever coexisting with Communism, since Communism works on the basis of everybody beliving without question in common idea.But I do agree with you that yes sometimes we do have to join up with the enemy to fight a bigger enemy like you mentioned when US joined with Soviet Union under Stalin to fight the Nazis and when we are victorious we have tendency to forget some of the crimes commited.

Oblivious · Dec 12, 2003, 03:54 PM

Quote:

And the idea of Democratic Communism thats like night and day it will never exist at the same time, Democracy allows for free choice that very idea destroys any concept of it ever coexisting with Communism, since Communism works on the basis of everybody beliving without question in common idea

Interesting theory. However, democracy is not total choice - that falls under the heading of anarchy. You overlook the fact that all democratic nations ( all nations whatsoever for that matter ) limit certain actions. For instance in any nation murder is considered to be amoral and illegal. Everyone living in a democratic country "... believes without question in [the] common idea ..." that murder is wrong. Yet we do not consider this to be an infringment on our freedoms.

Communism provides for some more items to add to the amoral and illegal list. It tries to curb the effects of greed ( theft, embezzlement, etc. ). Why shouldn't or why couldn't we all agree to live with that? To me it would be like adding "Every man has the right to not be pressured by economic circumstances" to the bill of rights. That's a freedom I want.

We don't realize it but every day of our American lives we fight a war with money. When we shop for a car or a new computer, we fight with dealers to keep our money because they wouldn't hesitate to overcharge us. Even when we go to the supermarket we have to worry about our money. This is the equivalent of intellectual assault: people everywhere try to abuse ( my/your ) lack of information. Why is this acceptable? Why should I tolerate this?

Communism is safety from abuse, and an intolerance to greed. It is not about limiting freedom of speech or though. Unless you consider robbing me blind your constitutional right? Think what you want to think, say what you want to say and vote the way that suits you best. But democratic communism is possible and beneficial.

By the way I am writing this out of character, I'm a Dean supporter :-P

UberLord · Dec 12, 2003, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oblivious
Communism is safety from abuse, and an intolerance to greed. It is not about limiting freedom of speech or though. Unless you consider robbing me blind your constitutional right? Think what you want to think, say what you want to say and vote the way that suits you best. But democratic communism is possible and beneficial.

Where it goes wrong is when some are more equal than others

Al_Vampyre · Dec 12, 2003, 04:09 PM

Communism is an ideal - a utopian one at that - unfortunately that ideal cannot be realised because such ideals are contrary to human nature. Some people will always want more of something (be it money, power, sex or whatever) than wahtever anyone else has...

digerati · Dec 13, 2003, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al_Vampyre
Communism is an ideal - a utopian one at that - unfortunately that ideal cannot be realised because such ideals are contrary to human nature. Some people will always want more of something (be it money, power, sex or whatever) than wahtever anyone else has...

Yes, we call those people @$$holes lol

merry · Dec 15, 2003, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oblivious
Communism is safety from abuse, and an intolerance to greed. It is not about limiting freedom of speech or though.

You make of communism exclusively a moral system, neglecting it's political and economical aspects. I suppose you are familiar with the works of Marx and Engels (as you reject Lenin), you ARE aware of the dictature of the proletariat concept... Freedom of speech? In a dictature?

As for the economic aspect, communism would be that society (professed by Marx) in which there would be no private property AT ALL. Mao's China. Real life implementations of this theory proved that lack of material motivation and competition between individuals/companies make for a failing economy.

Just a couple of hints, maybe, hopefully illustrating my point.

Or, if it's not Marxism, what communism have you in mind?

BWX · Dec 15, 2003, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by merry

As for the economic aspect, communism would be that society (professed by Marx) in which there would be no private property AT ALL. Mao's China.

Wow, how fun, sounds like prison to me.

JavaFox · Dec 15, 2003, 10:07 PM

The reason Americans didn't know about this was because the liberal media (New York Times) was content to lie about it and defend Communism.

Communism is the most dangerous fantasy mankind has ever created.

BluntmaN · Dec 16, 2003, 05:03 AM

Communism is the idea of live and let live as I already said it was never used right and it cannot become reality as it is. Many ideas are like that but we accept them for what they are theories. Newton discovered gravity, Froyd discovered psychoanalisys, Marx reprinted the idea in the bible and also was the first to question it. Has anyone read Marx? His theories of Human Life's Value? Capitalism is a different system adopted by nature: survival of the fittest and death to the weak. Capitalism is also good in theory but then things like social insurance, free health care, fair wages come into play and as we see by the American model it is going straight to hell and I hope it doesnt drag us with it. Socialism is nice as well: let the people own themselves private business close to strict rules and free health plans and NHS.

merry · Dec 16, 2003, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BluntmaN
Communism is the idea of live and let live

Where exactly did you read that at Marx? Besides the melodramatic 19-th century utopia, what Marx brings is the class struggle theory. Live and DON'T let EVERYBODY live, because some are evil, and should be eliminated. Ever heard of revolutions and such...

Just in case you don't believe me:

Quote:

The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly
declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow
of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a
communist revolution.

Karl Marx, "MANIFESTO OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY", available on-line here

This is a declaration of war to everybody else (all existing social conditions?); and no, the purpose doesn't justify the means, i.e. it is not OK to "forcible overthrow" anything, and physically eliminate the "class adversary", for the promise of the - be it communist - millenium.

"Live and let live" is not a communist slogan, on the contrary, it is the slogan of their oponents, the Liberal movement. (note that by Liberal I understand "[moderate] right wing", like say the Whigs in Britain).

Oblivious · Dec 16, 2003, 04:54 PM

Quote:

You make of communism exclusively a moral system, neglecting it's political and economical aspects. I suppose you are familiar with the works of Marx and Engels (as you reject Lenin), you ARE aware of the dictature of the proletariat concept... Freedom of speech? In a dictature?

As for the economic aspect, communism would be that society (professed by Marx) in which there would be no private property AT ALL. Mao's China. Real life implementations of this theory proved that lack of material motivation and competition between individuals/companies make for a failing economy.

Just a couple of hints, maybe, hopefully illustrating my point.

Or, if it's not Marxism, what communism have you in mind?

I'm not quite sure I follow you, but I'll do my best.

You mention Marx and Engels and try to define some implementation of communism, but this is not communism. Let me ask you a question: what is capitalism? Is it the stock market? Is it the corporations? Small business loans maybe? These are all ideas defined by capitalism but none of them define it. Capitalism is economic Darwinism. Men will live and die by how much wealth they have.

Communism is also an idea and it is the polar opposite of Capitalism. Communism is about every man's right to live without having to worry about wealth. I really don't see how communism precludes free speech. (?)

So China has a society without private property? Well what is so great about private property? In a capitalist society the concept of private property exists to assign wealth to a specific individual and to protect that wealth from others. I don't see any need for private property in a communist state. After all, private property has nothing to do with ownership.

Take for instance your computer, or your car. You own that car because you use it and everyone agrees that it is for your use. You own it as long as you use it. When you die, for instance, you can't use it any more and it is no longer yours. This is all there is to ownership. ( You can lose something very easily if the rest of society decides that you shouldn't posess it. Consider Eminent Domain for instance. )

Now this is where private property comes into play: In America not everyone agrees that that car is yours. The car constitutes wealth and since everyone wants ( or rather needs ) wealth people will come and take your car. (!) So it becomes important ( or rather necessary ) to protect your car. And so it is declared to be private property and a bunch of laws are passed to make sure that no one can take it. More laws are passed so you can trade cars and trade cars for money. Lemon laws are passed to protect you from dealers. You buy car insurance in case anyone decides to trash your car. You now have a piece of private property.

Under communism it's not necessary to have wealth and consequently there is no need for private property. You still own the car, you use it and if it is ever stolen it is returned to you so you can continue using it as you should. ( Because you need that car right? You don't drive a Vanquish to work right? You volunteer at the soup kitchen right? )

Saying that China lives without private property is like saying that they removed a whole useless chunk of the legal/bureaucratic system. Good for them.

Quote:

Real life implementations of this theory proved that lack of material motivation and competition between individuals/companies make for a failing economy.

Where are you headed that you are in such a hurry? What's wrong with a slow economy if it helps us coexist peacefully? Because I thought that world peace was important, you know?

Aaaanyway.... Why does everyone keep saying that communism can't work? I mean half the Western world believes in God! Is it so hard in comparison to have faith in communism? I'm not being facetious, I want to know why.

merry · Dec 17, 2003, 09:13 AM

Quote:

You mention Marx and Engels and try to define some implementation of communism, but this is not communism. Let me ask you a question: what is capitalism? Is it the stock market? Is it the corporations? Small business loans maybe? These are all ideas defined by capitalism but none of them define it. Capitalism is economic Darwinism. Men will live and die by how much wealth they have.

Communism is also an idea and it is the polar opposite of Capitalism. Communism is about every man's right to live without having to worry about wealth. I really don't see how communism precludes free speech. (?)

Capitalism is a vague term, I believe it was invented by Marx (although I might be wrong).

Communism is an ambiguous term: many different entities from many different domains are called "communist". There are many social, economic, political *defined* theories or systems that bear the name "communist"; capitalism is defined more or less as the opposite of *some* of those (social and economical).There are/were political parties that entitle themselves "communist"; to my knowledge there is no Capitalist Party anywhere in the world. The political opposite of Communism is Democracy.

Why Marx? To my knowledge, he came up with the term Communism. People calling themselves communists usually refer to Marx, or - without names - to his theories. To put it briefly: the historical class antagonism between the Rich and the Poor will eventually result in the elimination of the former (as a social class) and the institution of a society without private property (the source of all evil) where social classes will be obsolete.

Quote:

So China has a society without private property? Well what is so great about private property? In a capitalist society the concept of private property exists to assign wealth to a specific individual and to protect that wealth from others. I don't see any need for private property in a communist state. After all, private property has nothing to do with ownership.

This is my turn to not quite follow you. You mean, if I buy a car, I don't own it?

There are too many things here. First, the prospect of "buying" - if not owning - a car will make me work harder to earn more. In a communist state, material motivation is eliminated, so basicly to have people improve their work (in order to achieve any form of progress, economical, technological, scientifical), you need some other form of motivation.

Secondly, if I own a car and want it to function, I will have to personally assume responsability: keep it in a garage, clean it etc. In a communist state, that car will be everybody's, which ultimately means "nobody's". Someone might come and take the car right when I needed it, and nobody will care about it's state anyway.

You might say that there would be a car for everybody in the Communist state... Marx thought so, that communism will appear in a rich society, economically functional and capable of covering the needs of each of it's citizens. His prediction was England

Instead, his theories - the communist theory - really appealed to the masses in underdevelopped Russia.

So what can be motivating for the citizens of a Communist country? In theory, people would understand that everything is everybody's, and act responsibly towards public property. This doesn't seem absurd, after all people don't throw cigarette butts on the pavement, or paint walls with paint spray... Not in the quiet rich neighbourhoods, where they have better education and less stress...

You see my point? If the masses are uneducated - civically, politically etc. - the communist state will not work. This was Lenin's problem, and subsequently Stalin's. When the formerly opressed mouzhiks finally had the land on their hands, they discovered they liked private property, and gave the finger to the theory they didn't understand anyway. They dissed the kolkhoz (kolektiva khoziaystva, "collective agricultural property", or maybe cooperative ~).

What was there to be done? The only thing that seemed to be working was intimidation. To intimidate 200M you will have to push some 10M old ladies down the stairs. And don't be too hard on Stalin, he didn't kill innocent people: they were all guilty of not accepting (or understanding) the beatiful Idea. They were the Enemy of the People, the Greedy, the kulaks (rich peasants). It was communism or them millions. What would YOU choose?

Quote:

Aaaanyway.... Why does everyone keep saying that communism can't work? I mean half the Western world believes in God! Is it so hard in comparison to have faith in communism? I'm not being facetious, I want to know why.

As long as communism remains outside this world, I promise to have as much faith in it as I have in God

Seriously speaking, I CAN see the beauty of sharing things with people you have no previous knowledge of. Surprisingly enough, in Romania, the only place where your idea actually worked was a small village by the sea (spent all my summers there since 88), where there was this camping site... most people who came there thought of themselves as hippies (which they were not, they weren't dropouts, just wore long hair, played lousy guitar, got drunk and shared most things). What's surprising about this is that it has always been a subject of intimidation from the government, and resisted mostly because some of their own kids liked it there. Ironic, isn't it?

Re-reading these, I didn't write a good part of what I intended to... The "new man" theory they came up with, in order to explain the failure of the masses to swallow marxism... If Man has to be reformed, than how can these be in it's own interest?

As for [Mao's] China, well, one has to see to believe. My father taught a course in Beijing in 76 I think, and came back with a lot of pictures and stories. They all wore the same blue clothes, and my father said they didn't "own" them, they - the clothes - belonged to "the people". Some make like the idea, I hate it. I want my jeans, and shirts to be mine, I hate uniforms, I'm sorry if this makes me a dinosaur, but that's the way it is.

Be good

merry

BWX · Dec 17, 2003, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by merry
This is my turn to not quite follow you. You mean, if I buy a car, I don't own it?

There are too many things here. First, the prospect of "buying" - if not owning - a car will make me work harder to earn more. [color=yellow]In a communist state, material motivation is eliminated, so basicly to have people improve their work (in order to achieve any form of progress, economical, technological, scientifical), you need some other form of motivation.[/color]

Secondly, if I own a car and want it to function, I will have to personally assume responsability: keep it in a garage, clean it etc. In a communist state, that car will be everybody's, which ultimately means "nobody's". Someone might come and take the car right when I needed it, and nobody will care about it's state anyway.

Nobody can argue with that without sounding silly.

UberLord · Dec 17, 2003, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JavaFox
Communism is the most dangerous fantasy mankind has ever created.

Really? I think a communist democracy would be wonderful!

As opposed to the capitalist democracy in which we live.

You see - I'm making a distinction between economics and politics

JavaFox · Dec 17, 2003, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UberLord
Really? I think a communist democracy would be wonderful!
As opposed to the capitalist democracy in which we live.

You see - I'm making a distinction between economics and politics

You can't differentiate between economics and politics in a Communist system. Both need to exist in full force for that system to "work"

Dec 10, 2003, 02:00 PM	#1
FuNsTeR Caledonian and Proud Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Darkest Ayrshire Posts: 1,305 Rep Power: 88 System Specs	The forgotten Holocaust Seven million died in the 'forgotten' holocaust Eric Margolis – Toronto Sun November 16, 2003 Five years ago, I wrote about the unknown Holocaust in Ukraine. I was shocked to receive a flood of mail from young Americans and Canadians of Ukrainian descent telling me that until they read my column, they knew nothing of the 1932-33 genocide in which Josef Stalin's Soviet regime murdered seven million Ukrainians and sent two million more to concentration camps. How, I wondered, could such historical amnesia afflict so many? For Jews and Armenians, the genocides their people suffered are vivid, living memories that influence their daily lives. Yet today, on the 70th anniversary of the destruction of a quarter of Ukraine's population, this titanic crime has almost vanished into history's black hole. Click Here to read the rest __________________ "They say when you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear satanic messages ..... but that's nothing, if you play it forward it will install Windows"

Dec 10, 2003, 02:37 PM	#2
blade5545 Shoots first ask's questions later Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Austin,TX Posts: 330 Rep Power: 0	Very easy its called Communism I lived 10 years under it. __________________ Dell Inspiron 700m 2 ghz Intel Mobile 2mb L2 cache 12.1 Ultrabrite 1.25 gig ram 80gig hdd 8x DVD-RW 4.5lbs 1.5" thick 5 hours battery DFI NF4 Ultra - D AMD Winchester 64 3200+ @4125+ 2.62ghz sold Swiftech H20-120-BB REV. 3 LIQUID COOLING KIT 2x512 OCZ EL DDR PC-3200 Dual Channel sold Platinum Rev 2 OCZ POWERSTREAM 520W sold ATI X700 PRO SEAGATE 160GIG SATA Windows XP PRO SP2 / PearPC - Apple OS X 10.2 Unknown "The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself."

Dec 11, 2003, 02:20 AM	#4
blade5545 Shoots first ask's questions later Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Austin,TX Posts: 330 Rep Power: 0	What the fuck!!! Obviously you did not think hard enough about whay I said. dictator \Dic*ta"tor\, n. [L.] 1. One who dictates; one who prescribes rules and maxims authoritatively for the direction of others. --Locke. 2. One invested with absolute authority; especially, a magistrate created in times of exigence and distress, and invested with unlimited power. DONT FUCKING TELL ME WHAT COMMUNISM IS AND WHAT IT IS NOT, I WAS BORN UNDER MARTIAL LAW YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS NO CONSITUTION NO RIGHTS NO NOTHING, I LIVED RIGHT ACROSS FROM THE COMMUNIST PARTY BUILDING I SAW DEMONSTRATIONS EVERY WEEKEND RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY HOUSE WITH PEOPLE GETTING THE HELL BEAT OUT OF THEM BY THE FUCKING MILLITARY WITH TANKS, I WENT TO MILITARY SCHOOL WHERE THEY BRAINWASHED YOU AS BEST THEY COULD PICTURES OF STALIN AND LENIN ON EVERY WALL AND BEING PROCLAIMED AS THE HEROS, I SAW PEOPLE DIE RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY EYES GETTING THE BEAT BY THE MILITARY AND THE SECRET POLICE, MY UNCLE GOT BEAT TO DEATH BY THE SECRET POLICE HE WAS ONLY 31 AND MY ENTIRE FAMILY WAS THRETENED WITH DEATH IF WE HAPPEN TO INQUIRE WHY. IMAGINE STANDING IN LINE FOR 6 HOURS FOR A ONE LOAF OF BREAD WHEN YOUR 6 YEARS OLD AND LIVING WITH GOVERMENT IMPOSED RATIONS. IMAGINE WATCHING THE NEWS WHERE ALL YOU GET IS GOVERMENT PROPAGANDA AND YOU NO ACCESS TO WESTERN NEWS. ARE YOU REALLY THAT STUPID TO THINK THAT THE GOVERMENT WOULD TEACH FUTURE GENERATIONS THAT THEY ITS OWN GOVERMENT MURDERED 7 MILLION OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY A CUMMUNIST GOVERMENT WHICH DEPENDS ON ITS ABILITY TO BRAINWASH ITS YOUTH SO THEY PROUDLY CALLED THEMSELVES COMRADES AND WAVE THE FUCKING RED FLAG AND GO AFTER ITS OWN PEOPLE. MY GRANDFATHER LIVED ALL HIS LIFE WITH AN PUNCTURED LUNG THAT HE GOT WHEN HE WAS YOUNG NO HOSPITAL WOULD ACCEPT HIM SINCE HE WAS BLACK LISTED BY THE GOVERMENT AS THE ENEMY OF COMMUNIST REGIME. I LIVED UNDER THAT REGIME YOU DONT HAVE SLIGHTEST CLUE. DONT TALK ABOUT SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT JUST BECAUSE SOMEBODY TAUGHT YOU THAT AT SCHOOL DOES NOT MEAN YOU KNOW IT BETTER THAN SOMEBODY WHICH LIVED UNDER IT. YOU OBVIOUSLY BEEN SPOILED BY THE IDEA OF DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM TO THE POINT THAT YOU CANT SEE HOW ANOBODY WOULD NOT KNOW ABOUT SOMETHING WHICH HAPPEND IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY IF ITS IN THE INTREST OF THE GOVERMENT THEN THEY CAN SWEEP 7 MILLON LIVES UNDER THE CARPET WITH NO PROBLEMS ITS CALLED TOTAL CONTROL AND THAT IS TRUE DICTATORSHIP. __________________ Dell Inspiron 700m 2 ghz Intel Mobile 2mb L2 cache 12.1 Ultrabrite 1.25 gig ram 80gig hdd 8x DVD-RW 4.5lbs 1.5" thick 5 hours battery DFI NF4 Ultra - D AMD Winchester 64 3200+ @4125+ 2.62ghz sold Swiftech H20-120-BB REV. 3 LIQUID COOLING KIT 2x512 OCZ EL DDR PC-3200 Dual Channel sold Platinum Rev 2 OCZ POWERSTREAM 520W sold ATI X700 PRO SEAGATE 160GIG SATA Windows XP PRO SP2 / PearPC - Apple OS X 10.2 Unknown "The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself."

Dec 11, 2003, 05:18 PM	#8
blade5545 Shoots first ask's questions later Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Austin,TX Posts: 330 Rep Power: 0	I was born in Szczecin, Poland the biggest port in Poland so I lived right in the middle of the Solidarity movment which was started by Lech Walesa. __________________ Dell Inspiron 700m 2 ghz Intel Mobile 2mb L2 cache 12.1 Ultrabrite 1.25 gig ram 80gig hdd 8x DVD-RW 4.5lbs 1.5" thick 5 hours battery DFI NF4 Ultra - D AMD Winchester 64 3200+ @4125+ 2.62ghz sold Swiftech H20-120-BB REV. 3 LIQUID COOLING KIT 2x512 OCZ EL DDR PC-3200 Dual Channel sold Platinum Rev 2 OCZ POWERSTREAM 520W sold ATI X700 PRO SEAGATE 160GIG SATA Windows XP PRO SP2 / PearPC - Apple OS X 10.2 Unknown "The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself."

Dec 11, 2003, 05:46 PM	#9
toddsmack2k It Never..... Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,173 Rep Power: 0	Guys I know everyone has very passionate thoughts and views on politics and the things that have went on in thier lives but please refrain on the language. __________________ [color=blue]*Bleeding From the Inside Pouring Out, The* *DriverHeaven* Spiral, We Shall Never Let Go Of.[/color]

Dec 11, 2003, 02:25 AM	#5
~~craig588~~ Banned Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: In clothing Posts: 3,510 Rep Power: 0	I know aobut it, and I'm 15 so I dont think its as "forgotten" as people think.....

Dec 11, 2003, 02:29 AM	#6
digerati Everyones life has worth Join Date: May 2003 Location: My Yellow Bug Posts: 3,779 Rep Power: 0	Like craig I'm young at 17 and I know about it. But I like to blanket it under the evils of Stalin rather than a specific genocide like the Jews or Armenians.

Dec 11, 2003, 07:30 PM	#11
blade5545 Shoots first ask's questions later Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Austin,TX Posts: 330 Rep Power: 0	So according to you I cannot get pissed of about a system which almost killed of my family beacause it was a noble idea in the a book, it was far from noble in reality, human nature wont allow for a system like that even if the intention was noble we as human beings have to have room to grow and excel and better ourselves otherwise we have no reason to exist. The system of Communism is setup for a dictatorship from the start beacuse in order to live in that utopian world you have to have someone who is supreme in every way and passes on what is right and what is wrong to the rest of the society and that will only work with one leader and every body else follows without question that essentialy is a dictatorship. Communism may have been a great idea but so is me walking on water but as we all know it will never happen. Every goverment which has adopted that idea calls itself communist goverment but since human nature does not allows for such system to function without curruption it will become a evil regime. If all people do is evil in the name of a specific idea I will fight agains the idea itself, since the idea itself encourouges nothing but evil behaviour no matter what its orignal intentions were. __________________ Dell Inspiron 700m 2 ghz Intel Mobile 2mb L2 cache 12.1 Ultrabrite 1.25 gig ram 80gig hdd 8x DVD-RW 4.5lbs 1.5" thick 5 hours battery DFI NF4 Ultra - D AMD Winchester 64 3200+ @4125+ 2.62ghz sold Swiftech H20-120-BB REV. 3 LIQUID COOLING KIT 2x512 OCZ EL DDR PC-3200 Dual Channel sold Platinum Rev 2 OCZ POWERSTREAM 520W sold ATI X700 PRO SEAGATE 160GIG SATA Windows XP PRO SP2 / PearPC - Apple OS X 10.2 Unknown "The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself."

Dec 11, 2003, 09:04 PM	#13
BWX unplugged Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: USNY Posts: 19,669 Rep Power: 110 System Specs	You are so right blade. Some people just couldn't resist the brainwashing as well as you did I suppose.

Dec 12, 2003, 09:37 AM	Thread Starter #14
FuNsTeR Caledonian and Proud Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Darkest Ayrshire Posts: 1,305 Rep Power: 88 System Specs	the point of the whole thread was the wests turning a blind eye to a Evil Dictator who murdered 25 - 30 million of his fellow soviets in cold blood , whom was fighting another evil dictator who was responsible for massequring at least 12 million civillians in cold blood around 50 - 55% whom were German born, the only differance being was the west (Roosevelt) refered to him as "Uncle Joe" even knowing full well what Stalin had done to his own people in the name of progress sic not forgeting the countless millions more Stalins forces butchered , tortured and raped in countries his forces liberated sic all this for a failed ideal __________________ "They say when you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear satanic messages ..... but that's nothing, if you play it forward it will install Windows"

Dec 12, 2003, 11:48 AM	#15
BluntmaN DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: I have no idea Posts: 229 Rep Power: 0	Blade I have not lived in a dictatorship myself but my familly has and I do know what it is like since I have studied the subject. What is the most interesting thing is that what you described is NOT communism which is an idea that is very good but inaplicable. Communism is not meant to be a dictatorship but many dictators used it to get public support this does not mean that other political ideas have not been twisted and warped from a dictator. In Greece we had the capitalist dictatorship during which communists were sent in islands to work to death. It lasted about 7 years during which thousands were shot dead for being anything other than a sheep and hundreds of thousands were tortured for listening to a communist song. You see the soviets are not the only dictators and it doesnt matter which idea they say they believe in, they are dictators. By the way just because I am not willing to discard a utopic idea does not mean that I believe in it. Another interesting thing is you mentioning walking on water which is a christian mirracle. If you look close to Jesus's teachings you ll see that he was the first communist and also an anarchist. He who has to cloacks should give one to the poor (communists) also he went against established authority and also said that you dont have to be in church or be a christian in order to be accepted by God (anarchist ideas). Other nice examples are the wipping of the merchants in church (anti-cappitalist) and also the well known: "It is easier for a cammel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to be let in the kingdom of heaven." (anti-capitalist idea as well). Certainly Jesus also had some pagan ideas as eat this bread it is my body (cannibalism!!!!) drink this wine it is my blood (Vampirism). The only point I am trying to make is that no idea (including christianity) is perfect it is not tho the original idea that is put to use it is always the watered down version of it that sells. Just because some crasy guy kills a million people in the name of an idea this does not mean that the idea is to blame. Funster Stallin's crimes where never prosecuted because it was he who beat Hitler in the end. The allies didnt want their best friend to be branded a criminal. In the end of ww2 no one wanted to point fingers at Stallin because although he was a monster he helped us to kill a monster. The allies could not win ww2 without Stallin and could not go against him either and now in order to not look like criminals they dont want us to remember his crimes. Finally remember that Stallin also threw 25 million of his own people without weapons against the Nazis which is also a crime but the end justifies the means right? No one is blaming him of sending unarmed troops and civilians against the best military machine since the roman empire. The reason? We could NOT do it without him. __________________ 'Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know.' Donald Rumsfeld (And then they say that the White House knows what it's doing)

Dec 12, 2003, 01:57 PM	#16
blade5545 Shoots first ask's questions later Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Austin,TX Posts: 330 Rep Power: 0	Leaders with absolute power which do not allow themselves to become currupt are rare and extrodinary but they never last long mainly beacuse peope which hunger for that power and are without morals, unfurtently that is human nature thats why a utopian system like that will never exist, I remeber somebody saying this in one the Star Trek epsiodes "human race is capable of so much beauty and good but at the same time its capable of such horroudous crimes" what makes us unique is also our greatest downfall. And the idea of Democratic Communism thats like night and day it will never exist at the same time, Democracy allows for free choice that very idea destroys any concept of it ever coexisting with Communism, since Communism works on the basis of everybody beliving without question in common idea.But I do agree with you that yes sometimes we do have to join up with the enemy to fight a bigger enemy like you mentioned when US joined with Soviet Union under Stalin to fight the Nazis and when we are victorious we have tendency to forget some of the crimes commited. __________________ Dell Inspiron 700m 2 ghz Intel Mobile 2mb L2 cache 12.1 Ultrabrite 1.25 gig ram 80gig hdd 8x DVD-RW 4.5lbs 1.5" thick 5 hours battery DFI NF4 Ultra - D AMD Winchester 64 3200+ @4125+ 2.62ghz sold Swiftech H20-120-BB REV. 3 LIQUID COOLING KIT 2x512 OCZ EL DDR PC-3200 Dual Channel sold Platinum Rev 2 OCZ POWERSTREAM 520W sold ATI X700 PRO SEAGATE 160GIG SATA Windows XP PRO SP2 / PearPC - Apple OS X 10.2 Unknown "The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself."

Dec 12, 2003, 04:09 PM	#19
Al_Vampyre HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,532 Rep Power: 72 System Specs	Communism is an ideal - a utopian one at that - unfortunately that ideal cannot be realised because such ideals are contrary to human nature. Some people will always want more of something (be it money, power, sex or whatever) than wahtever anyone else has... __________________ "Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad" - Brian O'Driscoll - Ireland Rugby Team 2009 Grand Slam winning Captain.

Dec 15, 2003, 10:07 PM	#23
JavaFox E Pluribus Unum Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,203 Rep Power: 0	The reason Americans didn't know about this was because the liberal media (New York Times) was content to lie about it and defend Communism. Communism is the most dangerous fantasy mankind has ever created.

Dec 16, 2003, 05:03 AM	#24
BluntmaN DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: I have no idea Posts: 229 Rep Power: 0	Communism is the idea of live and let live as I already said it was never used right and it cannot become reality as it is. Many ideas are like that but we accept them for what they are theories. Newton discovered gravity, Froyd discovered psychoanalisys, Marx reprinted the idea in the bible and also was the first to question it. Has anyone read Marx? His theories of Human Life's Value? Capitalism is a different system adopted by nature: survival of the fittest and death to the weak. Capitalism is also good in theory but then things like social insurance, free health care, fair wages come into play and as we see by the American model it is going straight to hell and I hope it doesnt drag us with it. Socialism is nice as well: let the people own themselves private business close to strict rules and free health plans and NHS. __________________ 'Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know.' Donald Rumsfeld (And then they say that the White House knows what it's doing)