digerati

I had to dig this up because I need a wide variety of feedback on this subject. I'm also asking if any of you have some reliable statistics for me to look at to post them, let me tell you why.

I went to the Republican Club meeting at school yesterday during lunch. The topic was abortion, now I had a few friends from that class so I wasn't worried even if their views were different than mine. So I went first thinking this would be a nice old fashioned debate. I gave some examples as for why I was pro-choice then they ran the clock on being pro-life. And I was steamed and went home to friggin research and some of those people are idiots.

Most of them wanted all abortions illegal, even rape victims, and praise adoption as the miracle fix for the problem. Let's look at some of the stuff they said. (All supposed to be about US mind you)

"31 million children have been murdered by abortion."
(Also of course no sources were mentioned)
Now abortion in America was legalized in 1973 by the Roe Vs. Wade supreme court decision. That makes this year the 30th year anniversary. Now from what I understand that number is damn near the population of Canada. Now they praised adoption as the safe alternative, that would mean that per year 1,033,333 would have to be adopted. Pretty big number eh? Now let's take a look at how many kids are adopted through the United States state system.
2002 - 50,950
2001 - 50,213
2000 - 50,889
1999 - 46,750
1998 - 37,059
1997 - 31,030
1996 - 27,761
1995 - 25,693
Source: http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/d...ptchild03b.htm

So in 2002 50,950 were adopted, now lets compare that to 1,033,333. That's 4% of how many would be left for that year alone. Now if we combined all the children adopted in those 7 years (320,245) and compare to how many would be left because of abortion (7,233,331) we would have 6,913,086 left in the system.

Now I didn't have time to go research number but according to an essay from Duke University there are currently 500,000 kids left unadopted. And out of that number 40% will end up on welfare, half will graduate high school, 7% will graduate college. Now that's out of 500,000 kids we have already. So if we add 500,000 to the number we would have right now because of the outlaw of abortion we would have 7,413,086. So we would right now have 3,706,543 high school drop outs. 2,965,234 more people on welfare and 518,916 college graduates. Now I don't see a lot of benefit by having those kids still around financially speaking.
Source: http://www.duke.edu/womstud/archive/...%20Orphans.htm

Now I reported my findings to one of the kids who spoke against me and he said. "Maybe so, but 75% of women who have abortions commit suicide." Now I just left it at that (knowing at lest 10 females who have had abortions and none committed suicide), because of my personal experience with women who have had abortions (including my mother) and none of them committing suicide. But there may be entire groups of women who could have such a high suicide rate so I went looking and couldn't find anything remotely close to that. The closest thing I could find was a study did in Finland.

"The suicide rate after an abortion was three times the general suicide rate and six times that associated with birth.... the rate for women following a live birth was 5.9 per 100,000; following miscarriage 18.1; following abortion 34.7." They note that women frequently get short term "post-natal blues after having a baby, but that this rarely translates into suicide, and that the initial stress of having a child is transitional, the over-all effect having a positive effect on women’s health." M. Gissler, Abortion/Suicide Link,Br. Med. J., Dec. 6, 1996"
Source: http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_...0to%20suicide?

So either these kids are stupid (which is what I'm leaning towards) or there is a plethora of information that I was not able to find. If any of you could be so helpful as to point me anywhere where I could find their statistics I'd be very pleased.

Thank you
-^_^

BluntmaN

For meh the best Pro-life point is that abortion is killing because a baby has a soul. It just raises a few questions like how come a bunch of cells have a soul but a chicken's egg doesnt because it tastes nice in a cake.
When do we get souls?
Why do humans have souls and animals dont?
Also since homo-sapiens is the only species with a soul when did we aquire them?
How did something born from an ape which is souless have a soul?
And finally what the f@ck is a soul?

__________________
'Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know.'
Donald Rumsfeld (And then they say that the White House knows what it's doing)

Al_Vampyre

Easy - their so-called statistics don't exist, it's a commonly used tactic, especially at meetings where a large majority of the listeners want to believe what the speaker is saying. These people will accept the 'statistics' without question and have a tendency to repeat them when they get the chance without actually checking their validity.

Even though you decided to actually check the figures most people in attendance won't bother, they will just accept it because it backs up a belief they held anyway. If they didn't already have an opinion on abortion its the sort of statistic that may turn them against it - if they don't bother to check the facts. As most people won't bother even dodgy statistics can win supporters to any argument you choose...

Ain't human nature grand!!

I'm glad you took the time to do some research yourself...it shows a maturity and a desire for truth that is all too rare in this day and age...

__________________
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad" - Brian O'Driscoll - Ireland Rugby Team 2009 Grand Slam winning Captain.

digerati

I'm a Mexican Hebrew, so I'm TOTALLY too rare in this day and age lol

Madgoat1979

ehhhhhh,

Im pro...

(abotion that is)


I say whatever to the rest of it.......



MG

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@/2ct!<

Its pretty much weigh the consequences, like most things. You kill people; you also save people, hard to change. Much like Illega immigrants, its nice that they try and come to US so often, but what point does it really hurt us. We dont actually know what will happen, the US could benefit from it. Also, there might not be too much bad impact if abortion was made illegal, and people either took more responsibility or the goverment relaxed adoption laws.... We cannot see the future, so we can take a best guess at what it will be.

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bird chest

you are killing a person! No soul a person! Do not pull the animal thing it is the way of nature to do that. Species are there to survive and we are surviving by eating what we can! However I am not standing up for how we treat the animals before we kill them that is horrible.
So unless you believe in murder I do not see how you can believe in abortion. No person has ever given me a valid point why abortion is different then a murder.

BluntmaN

My point was towards the religius right that is pro life.

You are missing the point I am not talking about murder. I am talking about the syrgical or medical removal of a bunch of cells. Abortion is simply stoping natures plans. We have done that in the past we will do it again.

__________________
'Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know.'
Donald Rumsfeld (And then they say that the White House knows what it's doing)

bird chest

You are a bunch of cells! If we killed you we would be stopping natures plans! What is the difference? It is not the kids fault so why should the kid die.

BluntmaN

There are many scientific ways to put this but I cant be arsed. The end of the story is that they are not kids, they are not special, and if they get born and not get adopted their lifes will be shit. I dont know about you but I am sick of these rednecks droping them like crap. You dont want a kid fine dont have one lets kill that misserable thing to make its life better. In many cases abortion is euthanasia.

__________________
'Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know.'
Donald Rumsfeld (And then they say that the White House knows what it's doing)

digerati

I'm not sure I totally agree with that. I was almost aborted, that picture I just posted in the off topic forum with me and my dad is of happier times. Before the heroine, before prison, before shit went wrong.

I've lead a life you see on the tv as a shocking story. But I stand here today, happy, with people I love, and people who love me. So I think robbing people of the chance I had is a sad thing.

But I will still remain pro choice until people learn personal responsibility.

bird chest

So you are saying every person who is in a adoption clinic has a horrible life and would be happier dead. Nice, I could not be more insulting to a group of people then you just were. How do you know their lives will be shit what if they have a great life. That is a generalization of a few and even most of them would rather be alive. I still do not understand how they are not people?

BluntmaN

Statisticaly and psychologicaly it is much more likely for a kid living with a single parent to be more prone to depression, crime, antisocial behavious etc. The fetus is not really aware of its existance before the second semester so terminating it is much like crushing an egg. Using it for research is even better since it can help us understand more about the human body and might help the rest of us to cure illnesses that were uncurable. It is a bit disgusting but at least we dont eat them like eggs.

__________________
'Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know.'
Donald Rumsfeld (And then they say that the White House knows what it's doing)

digerati

Yes most will turn out to be troubled, but to ROB some people the chance to be living and happy just seems horrible to me.

bird chest

Are you aware of yourself when you go to sleep tonight? You can't answer that question because you are not aware on anything! But does that make it ok for me to kill you?

BTW the embrio will swim away from the vacum to save its self that is the first trimester.

Markius

i have a question or two about your comment.
What if the woman is raped? Is that due to her lack of control?

The last sentence of your reply didnt involve a single ounce of thought, and was rather pathetic.


and no i dont support abortion, for the record.

__________________
DriverHeavens Aussie...

"Lifes tragedy is that we get old too soon and wise too late"

digerati

This is extremely rare because of the stress brought on by rape. Of course knowing birdchest his response would be "So? Let the man suffer don't kill the child!" which is true. But I see a lot of psychological damage brought on by carrying the child.

If the woman is raped I feel she'll think the man who did that to her was evil, and what was growing inside her was evil. If she didn't get an abortion she may try self mutilation or even suicide, and now you have two deaths instead of one.

So I do totally support abortion in this case.

Markius

i just think saying something like "....the mom could not control herself...." is thoughtless.
Controlling your self and someone controlling you are two completely different things,

__________________
DriverHeavens Aussie...

"Lifes tragedy is that we get old too soon and wise too late"

bird chest

If the mom is going to kill herself then I feel it comes to the point where they both might die and enters a new category. I feel if the mom might die from the pregnency then get an abortion because it is better that the mom survive then niether.

Sorry if I said something that offended you Markius but I was talking about the vast majority of abortions not the very few caused by rape and I did get carried away. I just think if you are going to have sex except the consequences if you get pregnant. Just do not kill the kid.

Markius

no problem bird chest, you obviously feel very strongly about your views.
i dont want to seem like im having a go at you, but sometimes it pays to slow down a little and give your comments a little thought before they hit the forum.

__________________
DriverHeavens Aussie...

"Lifes tragedy is that we get old too soon and wise too late"

zerodamage

I really do not care what people think about abortion. There is no changing people's minds. The abortion debate is based primarily on radical emotion. If you want facts, I can post them here. Just say the word. Abortion at any time is the taking of human life. Biological Fact: The embryo is human. So if taking a human life is murder, shouldn't the same apply to abortion?

Here is some facts backed up with more facts.

Here

Here


So whether you are for or against abortion, it doens't matter. The fact remains that it is human dispite the "theories" of those radical pro-choicers and "religous" views of those on the religious right.

Knowing that killing a human is murder and that the Embryo is human.. what do you think?

Markius

great point zerodamage, and please, post all facts you can find!

__________________
DriverHeavens Aussie...

"Lifes tragedy is that we get old too soon and wise too late"

bird chest

I am just wondering how other people feel about abortions for rape victims? I am against it as you could have figured out above but how does eveyone else feel about it?

zerodamage

bird, that is the problem. Too much "feeling" and not enough thinking on the subject. I am more interested in what people THINK about this subject in general and most importantly on the FACT that the embryo IS human. I am not sure what I think about rape victims. This is a tough subject sometimes. What I feel about the subject isn't important.

bird chest

Why is what you think about the subject not important? That is a stupid response from people who don't vote that I hear all the time. If everyone said that we would get nowhere.

zerodamage

Bird, please read my post again. You've actually made my point for me. You asked what people "FEEL" about the subject. My response is that feelings on the subject is why debate on the issue is usually unproductive. I wish to hear what people "THINK" about it rather than feel. You've done exactly what normally happens, you gave "feel" and "think" the same meaning and they are very different.

bird chest

I am totally lost as to what you are saying! I changed my wording and said think not feel. I then proceeded to ask you why you THINK your THOUGHTS are pointless.

One more thing I want to ask. Why is it bad that people go off feeling? I do not understand your logic I think and feel abortion is wrong. I think and feel that abortion after a rape is wrong. What is wrong with feeling?

Markius

well what do you *feel* about rape?
and what do you *feel* should be done whith the child that most rape victims wouldnt want growing in them or to keep after birth?


it really is too large a topic for me to either:
a: waste my time researching enough to put up a valid argument
or
b: spend the time needed for an intelligent debate in this thread

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DriverHeavens Aussie...

"Lifes tragedy is that we get old too soon and wise too late"

Roadee

This is pretty much a mute discussion. Everyone is going to have there own opinion based on where and how they were raised. No one will ever get there point across, because the person that is for or against abortion will not take the time to listen to the opposite and vice versa. And even if the do take to time to listen.......it still wont change there mind in any way, shape, or form.

Why bother??

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We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then things get worse.

Markius

well put Roadee.
I tend to agree with that.

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DriverHeavens Aussie...

"Lifes tragedy is that we get old too soon and wise too late"