Mission to Mars. Political ploy or reality?

bird chest · Jan 19, 2004, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
Well yes, yes like I said, we can agree on that. But the question is is that what is going to happen? Or is it likely to be just a glorified lunar igloo, with a bunch of, lets face it, not very smart guys, standing around waiting to wave rude signs at the Chinese when they arrive in 2020?

And if it is only to be the latter, does everyone (particularly the republicans here) feel that that is a good enough reason to do it?

I mean com'on, Bush is no fan of Scientific research, which has been proved time and again over his rejection of arguments over global warming, deforestation and GM food. The only reason he is likely to be interested in it is if there is likely to be some military or political pay off.

Since there is no Soviet threat to speak of any more and we don't have to worry about Global nuclear war breaking out at a moment's notice - and thus the idea of putting a military base on the moon is now an utterly absurd proposition, then clearly there is no military pay off from doing it. So maybe he thinks the political prestige would be enough?

All I know is that you should never underestimate the desire of politicians to play politics. However noble their stated goals may seem, I doubt that will ever change.

GJ

I say we team up with the chinese go do it and land SCIENTISTS in a base on the moon.

raid517 · Jan 19, 2004, 08:00 PM

Now there's a novel idea! Yes! Why not? If they really cared about science and not just about politics, that is exactly what they should do.

Lets see if it happens.

GJ

BluntmaN · Jan 20, 2004, 12:17 AM

Hmm so here comes the next question is image so damn important that we are willing to slow down the progress of mankind over it?

See if the US, China and Europe put their heads and money together they CAN explore outer space faster and more efficiently but then whose face will they rub their success in? Same problem as the USSR vs US space race. I think that we can all agree now that the space race during the cold war yielded miniature results compared to the money and effort put into the project but voters and leaders worldwide learnt nothing from it. I can understand F1 racing cause it is car manufacturers who battle it out for recognition and development of new techs but when it comes to outer space I can't understand why America vs China is so damn important (especially from America's point of view).
The only place I have seen a more thoughtless contest is in body building. But as all psychologists agree body builders build muscles coz they have issues with themselves. What is America's issue? Why do they need to feel so damn smart and advanced? Where is this insecurity coming from?

P.S. I understand that China wants to beat US to Mars coz their political system is based on propaganda and therefore beating US to Mars will boost morale but America is a capitalist country no selfrespecting investor will hand money to GM coz US was the first nation on Mars.

raid517 · Jan 23, 2004, 12:08 AM

Well scrub that then. We can't even safely depend on rover missions to be completed sucessully. Sigh... Well we have about a 95% failure rate now with everything we have thrown at that ball of dirt. The Americans have tried, the Russians have tried, even the Brits have tried.

How can we ever hope to think about safely sending humans there?

GJ

bird chest · Jan 23, 2004, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
Well scrub that then. We can't even safely depend on rover missions to be completed sucessully. Sigh... Well we have about a 95% failure rate now with everything we have thrown at that ball of dirt. The Americans have tried, the Russians have tried, even the Brits have tried.

How can we ever hope to think about safely sending humans there?

GJ

They can make it their safely but the programs that always send these things up are always under funded.

Falstaff · Jan 23, 2004, 02:44 PM

the exploration of space will not cease to be an issue of controversy, but the world population will soon top 11 billion, therefore it is inevitable for us to pursue resources and oppurtunities in space, albiet under the auspices of scientific and technological interests.

~~bluelight~~ · Jan 23, 2004, 04:16 PM

Personally i dont believe that they are up there to feed us in the future.

They spend money on this for military,security and glory reasons .

Nothing else.

The assumption that space could eventually free us from the responsability to use the resourses of this world in a way that makes them last is ..well...not ridiculous but not far from.

Bluelight

raid517 · Jan 23, 2004, 04:32 PM

What gets me though is why were the Viking landings so successful - and why is everthing that is done these days so disasterous?

My guess is it must be about money and about the delivery system. The Vikings used parachutes and retro-rockets to land. I wonder just what the forces are when these things land using airbags. I mean I know they don't hit anything directly, but there is still a lot of kinetic energy that is tranported through them before they hit the ground. It is like someone picking you up and shaking you extremely violently (well not quite - but it has a similar effect). I'm sure this can't be a good thing.

Maybe there isn't the political will at the moment to spend the money that is needed to have successful missions?

Maybe folks in the 70's were just more competant and professional and were more equiped to complete these missions successfully?

It's pretty messed up whatever way you look at it.

GJ

raid517 · Jan 23, 2004, 04:37 PM

@bluelight common man... Not everthing is a conspiracy. I may not be keen on the idea of a politically motivated manned mission to Mars, but I still think maybe if they did send real scientists it would be worthwhile.

We can't live for ever just staring at our belly buttons. There really does have to be more to life than this.

GJ

~~bluelight~~ · Jan 23, 2004, 07:33 PM

Im not talking about a conspiracy.Im talking about a genrally accepted fact.

The biggest benefits from space science are used for military purposes and the amont of money used to take advantage of that is huge and could be better used for other things.

Just today i read that the European "Mars project" has "found evidence of frozen water on Mars".

When the journalists asked if this was the most important achievement and discovery since man stepped on the moon he replied .

The reply from the scientist was:

No the most important discovery is that universe is expanding with accelerated speed (and yet another one which i dont remeber exactly).None of these needed billion dollar projects to complete.

I dont disagree with going into space.There are certainly good such projects but believeing it is salvation for mankind is taking it too far.

Even if it was we would need that effort first of all to solve our HUGE problem here first which undoubtedly will crush this planet long before we have any possibility at all of "taking advantage of space" in these terms.

Whats more..Bush babbling about Mars right now....That is NOTHING but ..."Election time and glory for all if you vote for me"

Bluelight

raid517 · Jan 23, 2004, 07:42 PM

Well blue, you always seem to be able to go that extra mile don't you?

Really no one is looking for 'salvation in space.' But humans being what we are, it is a foregone conclusion that sooner or later we are pretty much going to trash this planet. When that happens (not if) we are going to have to do some serious thinking about where we can go and trash next.

You can implore people all you want to behave resposibly and to behave in a benevolent way towards the environment. But if that means anyone giving up any of their home comforts in order to achieve this, you can pretty much forget about it.

We are a wasteful and irresponsible race. As depressing as it may sound, I doubt there is anything anyone will ever do that will change this.

GJ

Falstaff · Jan 23, 2004, 07:42 PM

The military component has always been there even for China and Japan and France. It is a harsh reality, but a necessary evil to include all the necessary technologies for strategic and tactical applications with each mission. Even the ill fated recent shuttle mission was a perfect example, though never disclosed, the mission could never have been scrubbed for fear of comprimising the success of the military portion of the flight

~~bluelight~~ · Jan 23, 2004, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
Well blue, you always seem to be able to go that extra mile don't you? Really no one is looking for 'salvation in space.' But humans being what we are, it is a foregone conclusion that sooner or later we are pretty much going to trash this planet. When that happens (not if) we are going to have to do some serious thinking about where we can go and trash next.

You can implore people all you want to behave resposibly and to behave in a benevolent way towards the environment. But if that means anyone giving up any of their home comforts in order to achieve this, you can pretty much forget about it.

We are a wasteful and irresponsible race. As depressing as it may sound, I doubt there is anything anyone will ever do that will change this.

GJ

He he... One thing these beautiful images from Mars could serve is tell us the way things migt eventually look like here if we mess up totally.

Bl

BTW:

Good to see you again.

raid517 · Jan 23, 2004, 10:10 PM

Quote:

BTW:

Good to see you again.

Lol mate, I never went away...

GJ

Necrosis · Jan 25, 2004, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by merry
Rocket fuel? Can you elaborate on that?

Anyway, I don't see the utility of having scientists on the moon. Scientists belong in labs, and I think it's much more convenient to bring outer-space materials to labs than labs to the outer-space.

And after all, most Space related efforts wore political and military.

Yes, rocket fuel all the components are already there. If I find a good source to explain it better than I can, I will post it.

Necrosis · Jan 25, 2004, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
Well scrub that then. We can't even safely depend on rover missions to be completed sucessully. Sigh... Well we have about a 95% failure rate now with everything we have thrown at that ball of dirt. The Americans have tried, the Russians have tried, even the Brits have tried.

How can we ever hope to think about safely sending humans there?

GJ

Opp. is on Mars and working fine as the time of this e-mail. Spirit's problem has also been found...a $50 flash card is messed up. I'm sorry but HA HA..hello folks do you test this stuff after you pick it up from Staples? There is software to help correct this type of problem...hmm you think they would of slapped another in for backup.

kemet64 · Jan 26, 2004, 04:56 PM

This is definately a political ploy. First of all, it basically was following the mars lander news. People's attention was towards that, so Bush played on it. This, actually, was tried before and was lost in the news a few months afterwards. I believe the same will happen to this; people will begin to look at the big problems.

Falstaff · Jan 26, 2004, 09:02 PM

Political Ploy? no Bush is the Chief Executive for the United States, It is his business to institute change, perpetuate the common goals of his predecessors and make giant steps towards the future. Ploy Smoy, such cynacism for such a great American leader

edperks · Jan 26, 2004, 09:18 PM

He can say and pass anything he wants his successor's will have the final word.

Falstaff · Jan 26, 2004, 09:49 PM

hopefully a long list of loyal republicans

GutterPunk · Jan 26, 2004, 10:19 PM

It looks as if he may have 4 more years to work on this project

BluntmaN · Jan 27, 2004, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fallang_jeff
Political Ploy? no Bush is the Chief Executive for the United States, It is his business to institute change, perpetuate the common goals of his predecessors and make giant steps towards the future. Ploy Smoy, such cynacism for such a great American leader

It is a political ploy mate open your eyes. All he wants is another 4 years. A mars mission has a nice sound to it but already 60% of the US public didnt buy it. These are just cheap tricks employed by polititians wait a bit more you ll see many talks about lowering polution, better wellfare, tax cuts for the masses and so on and so forth these tricks have been employed so many times over the years I am amazed people still go for it. The great American leader who almost died from snack food and has made so many stupid statments over the years a six year old would laugh at him.

Bush blunders become bestseller

THE WILD AND WOOLY WORLD UNDER BUSH'S HAT

Some nice laughing matterial if you want more do a search there is plenty.

P.S. This is not part of my point its just a humorous approach to the Great American leader by the name: George W. Bush

Jan 20, 2004, 12:17 AM	#33
BluntmaN DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: I have no idea Posts: 229 Rep Power: 0	Hmm so here comes the next question is image so damn important that we are willing to slow down the progress of mankind over it? See if the US, China and Europe put their heads and money together they CAN explore outer space faster and more efficiently but then whose face will they rub their success in? Same problem as the USSR vs US space race. I think that we can all agree now that the space race during the cold war yielded miniature results compared to the money and effort put into the project but voters and leaders worldwide learnt nothing from it. I can understand F1 racing cause it is car manufacturers who battle it out for recognition and development of new techs but when it comes to outer space I can't understand why America vs China is so damn important (especially from America's point of view). The only place I have seen a more thoughtless contest is in body building. But as all psychologists agree body builders build muscles coz they have issues with themselves. What is America's issue? Why do they need to feel so damn smart and advanced? Where is this insecurity coming from? P.S. I understand that China wants to beat US to Mars coz their political system is based on propaganda and therefore beating US to Mars will boost morale but America is a capitalist country no selfrespecting investor will hand money to GM coz US was the first nation on Mars. __________________ 'Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know.' Donald Rumsfeld (And then they say that the White House knows what it's doing)

Jan 23, 2004, 02:44 PM	#36
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	the exploration of space will not cease to be an issue of controversy, but the world population will soon top 11 billion, therefore it is inevitable for us to pursue resources and oppurtunities in space, albiet under the auspices of scientific and technological interests. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jan 23, 2004, 07:42 PM	#42
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	The military component has always been there even for China and Japan and France. It is a harsh reality, but a necessary evil to include all the necessary technologies for strategic and tactical applications with each mission. Even the ill fated recent shuttle mission was a perfect example, though never disclosed, the mission could never have been scrubbed for fear of comprimising the success of the military portion of the flight __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jan 26, 2004, 04:56 PM	#47
kemet64 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 457 Rep Power: 0	This is definately a political ploy. First of all, it basically was following the mars lander news. People's attention was towards that, so Bush played on it. This, actually, was tried before and was lost in the news a few months afterwards. I believe the same will happen to this; people will begin to look at the big problems. __________________ Inspiron XPS Intel 3.4 ghz 1gb Corsair XMS DDR PC3200 60gig 7200 HD 128mb Radeon Mobility 9700 Creative Soundblaster Audigy 2 NX Logitech z680 Speakers

Jan 26, 2004, 09:02 PM	#48
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Political Ploy? no Bush is the Chief Executive for the United States, It is his business to institute change, perpetuate the common goals of his predecessors and make giant steps towards the future. Ploy Smoy, such cynacism for such a great American leader __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jan 19, 2004, 08:00 PM	Thread Starter #32
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Now there's a novel idea! Yes! Why not? If they really cared about science and not just about politics, that is exactly what they should do. Lets see if it happens. GJ

Jan 23, 2004, 12:08 AM	Thread Starter #34
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Well scrub that then. We can't even safely depend on rover missions to be completed sucessully. Sigh... Well we have about a 95% failure rate now with everything we have thrown at that ball of dirt. The Americans have tried, the Russians have tried, even the Brits have tried. How can we ever hope to think about safely sending humans there? GJ

Jan 23, 2004, 04:16 PM	#37
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Personally i dont believe that they are up there to feed us in the future. They spend money on this for military,security and glory reasons . Nothing else. The assumption that space could eventually free us from the responsability to use the resourses of this world in a way that makes them last is ..well...not ridiculous but not far from. Bluelight

Jan 23, 2004, 04:32 PM	Thread Starter #38
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	What gets me though is why were the Viking landings so successful - and why is everthing that is done these days so disasterous? My guess is it must be about money and about the delivery system. The Vikings used parachutes and retro-rockets to land. I wonder just what the forces are when these things land using airbags. I mean I know they don't hit anything directly, but there is still a lot of kinetic energy that is tranported through them before they hit the ground. It is like someone picking you up and shaking you extremely violently (well not quite - but it has a similar effect). I'm sure this can't be a good thing. Maybe there isn't the political will at the moment to spend the money that is needed to have successful missions? Maybe folks in the 70's were just more competant and professional and were more equiped to complete these missions successfully? It's pretty messed up whatever way you look at it. GJ

Jan 23, 2004, 04:37 PM	Thread Starter #39
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	@bluelight common man... Not everthing is a conspiracy. I may not be keen on the idea of a politically motivated manned mission to Mars, but I still think maybe if they did send real scientists it would be worthwhile. We can't live for ever just staring at our belly buttons. There really does have to be more to life than this. GJ

Jan 23, 2004, 07:33 PM	#40
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Im not talking about a conspiracy.Im talking about a genrally accepted fact. The biggest benefits from space science are used for military purposes and the amont of money used to take advantage of that is huge and could be better used for other things. Just today i read that the European "Mars project" has "found evidence of frozen water on Mars". When the journalists asked if this was the most important achievement and discovery since man stepped on the moon he replied . The reply from the scientist was: No the most important discovery is that universe is expanding with accelerated speed (and yet another one which i dont remeber exactly).None of these needed billion dollar projects to complete. I dont disagree with going into space.There are certainly good such projects but believeing it is salvation for mankind is taking it too far. Even if it was we would need that effort first of all to solve our HUGE problem here first which undoubtedly will crush this planet long before we have any possibility at all of "taking advantage of space" in these terms. Whats more..Bush babbling about Mars right now....That is NOTHING but ..."Election time and glory for all if you vote for me" Bluelight

Jan 23, 2004, 07:42 PM	Thread Starter #41
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Well blue, you always seem to be able to go that extra mile don't you? Really no one is looking for 'salvation in space.' But humans being what we are, it is a foregone conclusion that sooner or later we are pretty much going to trash this planet. When that happens (not if) we are going to have to do some serious thinking about where we can go and trash next. You can implore people all you want to behave resposibly and to behave in a benevolent way towards the environment. But if that means anyone giving up any of their home comforts in order to achieve this, you can pretty much forget about it. We are a wasteful and irresponsible race. As depressing as it may sound, I doubt there is anything anyone will ever do that will change this. GJ

Jan 26, 2004, 09:18 PM	#49
edperks HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 780 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	He can say and pass anything he wants his successor's will have the final word.

Jan 26, 2004, 09:49 PM	#50
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	hopefully a long list of loyal republicans __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jan 26, 2004, 10:19 PM	#51
GutterPunk I = Greatest Dood Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Nebraska Posts: 5,949 Rep Power: 71	It looks as if he may have 4 more years to work on this project __________________ Rock On \m/ Thank you Mousey for the Sig! --------------- Intel Core2Duo E6660 (3.4GHZ) ~ Tuniq Tower 120 ~ Enermax Galaxy 1000W ~ Corsair Dominator @ 1090MHZ 5-5-5-15 (OCZ XTC Modded Cooler)~ EVGA 8800GTX W/ HR-03 Plus 120MM ~ Asus DVD-RW LiteScribe ~ LG DVD-RW ~ Corsair Voyager 2GB ReadyBoost Drive ~ Vantec Nexus Fan Controller ~ ThermalTake Armor 25CM fan ~ Personal Finance Blog: Dent Your Debt