GOG

Don't know if you've seen this one but it really made me feel sick. http://www.informationclearinghouse....o_iraqiwar.wmv

Falstaff

This is combat, and they did this man a favor, horrible yes, but then war is hell, United States Marines kill, and they do it with precision and skill, to harnass the will to pull the trigger, they must dismiss what we embrace as fair treatment. Kill or be killed, and under the circumstances, and all targets or threats within their scope of authority.
Combat transforms everyone behind a weapon. Pull the trigger on a heavy caliber machingun on men running from an ambush and it can be sickening, fire an antitank weapon into a structure you suspect hides the enemy. Call in a strike on a position that you know hides snipers and anti tank threats. Dismiss all ideas about concern for enemy wounded, they damn sure dont care about United States Marines. Shoot or get shot at, and run like hell when they are shooting at you, find a position to return fire. Ambush is much better and more successful. There is no fair or not fair, kill or be killed and live another day. Death from above is much scarier to me, you cannot hear the air attack and all you see are people and buildings and trucks blown apart by high altitude fire.
gunship video

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GOG

First of all, there was no precision or skill involved here. The first rounds missed the target by several meters and the guy interviewed in the end of this clip apparently was some kind of retard, he shouldn't be around weapons in the first place. Anyone who says that it feels good to kill another human being can't be right in his head. It has come more and more clear to me that your so called "elite troops" in fact are a bunch of retarded cowboys that couldn't keep up with a real, well equipped and well organized army. I don't know what's worse here Jeff, you defending this kind of behavior, or the behavior itself. People cheering and laughing when killing other human beeings are not soldiers, they're sadists.

bluelight

Yes there is some substance in what you say about "elite troops"

One of reasons they are capable of being just that "elite troops" is that they have minds easy to convert and that they dont ask any kinds of questions whatsoever.THis is essential since they would not be capable of doing what they are actually demancded to do otherwise.Nobody is unless they are trained or psychopaths.

If they are needed?

Yeah maybe.Under certain circumsatnces.

Bluelight

Falstaff

I know that there is a sadistic side to men, any man that must kill to survive in combat, unleash the beast if you want to be an efficient killing machine, To accurately kill, takes experience and discipline, and the weapons range is a poor substitute. Every man that had to kill was affected by the first kill. Take an ordinary kid, teach him to kill, teach him discipline and teach him to follow orders, the rest is up to him. I am grateful that U.S. Servicemen are trained to be the best. I remember watching missles leave a launcher, and knowing full well that it might miss the target and hit something else, in fact 6 or perhaps 7 landed in residential areas around the Palace. I saw IRAQI men fleeing from heavy caliber fire, and watched them literally blown apart in large numbers. We did a BDA on a target that was obliterated by a gas bomb, nothing but eyeless corpses smoldering in the sun. Smell it or feel it, you must taste it. It truly is hell. America has awesome power, and we kill better than anyone on the planet, not bragging, just a fact. I relished victory and embraced the knowledge that I was on the winning side, but the images are still fresh in my mind. And yes if your wondering, I have seen dead women and children as well. I hope you never have to pull the trigger and see your target die, it is sickening. I will never get used to it. I am dismayed at the way the media handles it, they are fools if they think they can glorify it, and idiots if they think they can hide anything. I have put myself in the place of a young IRAQ man, with an RPG on his shoulder, and watched him attempt to fire his weapon against overwhelming odds. He had the courage of a lion, but he was killed before he could use it. One well placed shot blew his head off. We are a nation of patirots and warriors, and most of us are insulated from the harsh reality of combat, and perhaps that is a good thing.

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BluntmaN

Actully combat is diferent from what this video is about that is a war crime. Killing wounded opponents in cold blood is Murder. Combat is about survival but shooting a man while he is down that is cowardness and Murder that kid should be put in trial and whoever put him there should face charges. This is the most sickening modern war video I have seen theese fucks are insane.

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'Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know.'
Donald Rumsfeld (And then they say that the White House knows what it's doing)

Falstaff

To allow a wounded enemy to continue to suffer would have been more cruel, it seems so heartless, but finishing him off was the only kindness that wounded IRAQI could get, kill or be killed. I know this will piss a few poeple off, but it is what I would have done without thinking. When it comes to combat at short or long range, it is best to kill swiftly, eliminate the threat. I could stomach a swift kill, but not the lingering agony of a mortal wound. I think if everyone knew the harsh reality of war, they would not so readily embrace it. Better to stand shout obscenities at each other. Better to find a comprimise, find a place where two can coexist. But when the word is given prosecute a war with swift and decisive action. In this world we will find new ways to kill, and we will use weapons that are more efficient than the small caliber rifle round, but the end result is the same. I abhor the idea that these Marines enjoy killing, but to be good killers, they must harnass the will to kill.
Unless you have harnassed the will to kill, I believe it is difficult to understand the mind of the combat marine.

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BluntmaN

How about to allow a wounded person come to your lines to surrender? He was not so badly wounded he tried to get up. Kill swiftly is not always the best tactic snipers only wound they dont kill at first. Abolishing war now this is a new idea unfortunately it is as utopic as communism. As long as two nations (or even two fractions) want the same thing and one believes it is more powerful than the other they ll engage in war. War is a natural phenomenon it manifests it self in other species as well in primates and even insects. In nature it shows as creative destruction (WHAT A TERM) e.g. an old tree emmits resin and atracts lightning to set itself and the rest of the forest on fire so that new seeds can grow after all have burned. War though same as fire can be abused. e.g. setting fire to a forest to build more houses or going to war while you have no real reson for it. The Iraqi war was a such war. There was no real reason to do it WMD havent been found although Sadam has been captured these people will give up their freedom to religious leaders as soon as the americans move out. The war was for the cheapest oil on earth oil that the US didnt need at this particular time enough to sacrifice billions and 100+ lives of their own to get. This war could wait.

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'Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know.'
Donald Rumsfeld (And then they say that the White House knows what it's doing)

GOG

I suggest you to read this Jeff: http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9...3?OpenDocument

Personally, I find this piece very interesting: "(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria."

Or is it so that YOUR army doesn't have to follow international laws? If this behavior is common practise among your soldiers, I will pray that the Iraqis kill as many of this scum as possible before you decide to leave their country.

digerati

That was horrible. Simply horrible. My stomach is churning right now from watching that. If that was a soldier there dying then yes killing him was alright in my eyes. You can tell by the way he was trying to get up that he was hurt bad. But the cheering afterwards just makes me sick. Killing isn't a game, kill or be killed is a way to survive, not enjoy your time like you just scored a point in basketball.

Necrosis

Hmm...I'm not up-holding what the soldier said after the footage but I do have one thing to say to Gog.

1. Apparently you have no combat experience so you're talking out your ass.

2. There is a difference between "laying down arms' as opposed to dropping arms because you were attacking and been shot.

3. Your "praying" so that more people die...yeah your a class act there buddy...so what's the difference?

GOG

1. Then 99% of the world population should be talking out of their ass too though they don't have any combat experience either. I really can't see your point here.

2. Read it again. "... and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely..."

3. No, I'm praying so that more American war criminals like these mental cases get killed, I don't count them as people. They stand lower than animals in my eyes. But on the other hand, it would be nice to have them loose in your own streets when they get back home.


Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Definition:

\Hors` de com`bat"\
Out of the combat; disabled from fighting.

Sourcer_2002

For one...its war...people will die! Two im sure they have wronged killed US soilders too. Three that man knew what would happen when once he joined up to fight against the US.

GOG

Funny, I thought he joined up so he could defend his country. Please don't try to think of yourselves as victims here, YOU invaded them, remember?

digerati

Last time I checked we weren't exactly opressing them, so I don't see much need for him to attack us.

Necrosis

1. My point is your talking about a combat situation which you seem to be the "know it all" expert on. Ever heard of the expression...."walk a mile in someone's shoes". I don't think those should judge combat unless they themselves have also experienced it. Myself included!!

2. I don't see any white flags did you? I didn't see any instance of giving up so who is to say this guy wouldn't do anything else? We are talking about a culture that believes in suidcide bombers and so fourth. Would you of ran out there to help him? I really doubt.

3. Okay if Iraq has also signed this particular docuement your mentioning then maybe they can be called War criminals. I'm not saying what was done was totally right. However, it's more gray than black & white in that respect. However, the comments afterward were chilling to say the least. Now about this guy being back on my streets...how about I find who this person really is and send him to Sweden all expenses paid! I guess it would give you something to do besides regurgitating your Anti-American propaganda here wouldn't it?

Falstaff

I am not surprised that anyone is horrified by war, death and the tremendous waste that occurs when anyone engages in combat against a powerful foe. But in the context of wars that we have fought and won, and the great speed at which we pursue our enemies to surrender or annihilation, the attrition from actual combat, is much lower than before. One death or thousands, are one aspect of the terrible price we all pay when we go to war. I was trained to do my job with skill, professionalism and zeal, and I am proud of that, but if you want to peer into the pysche of the warrior, know that when you raise your weapon to fire, you are commited. If you can pull the trigger, realize that you are sending someone to their maker. We are all brothers and sisters in death.

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bluelight

Exactly which laws says it is ok to kill wounded enemies?

Bluelight

ToshiroOC

I won't debate the morality of the act of killing shown in that video, but I will say that the soldier at the end is rather blatantly edited, and I seriously doubt that his final comments were intended in relation to the killing.

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[color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color]
Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

GOG

1. There you're totaly wrong. It's exactly the people who have not experienced combat who should judge these situations.

2. Read it again, he doesn't need any white flag to be left alone. Those guys killed him out of pure joy. And no, I would probably not have run for his help, but I sure as hell wouldn't have shot him in the back.

3. LOL, so now you're going to send some lunatic after me just because I talk dirty about some of your war criminals?

GOG

Sure it was edited, it was edited by the CNN so the whole world could think of american marines as murderers when they actually are the Salvation Army under cover. Everything that puts your country in a bad light is edited.

The_Neon_Cowboy

Apparently you've never fired a M16, It’s not a sniper rifle when it comes to accuracy but it gets the job done well. Especially army rounds they like to fly all over. If you notice it took only 3 shots. 3rd shot was a hit. Also there not useing scopes and down the site short are nearly as accurate.

No like the voice was cut and sliced, the footage was cut and sliced the quality is super low making harder to prove, the pixilation around the ticker denotes editing, the lower ticker bar has been blurred out on purpose. I’ve watch more CNN then you could ever imagine before during and after. That sound byte is very familiar meaning I have heard it before. If anything its a fake! or a cut and slice video

Even if it was real all they did is put they poor guy who had 0% chance of survival out of his misery. You sure would feel different after that guy had just shot at you or shot you buddy next to you. Such is the horrors and the nature of war.

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bluelight

Well i finally did look at this.

It is obvious that someone is killing a wounded person deliberatly.

Wheter or not the comments afterwards are edited into the sequense or not is out of my judgement. BUT...since it is part of a report from CNN i figure that the risk that they deliberatly would "fix this up" is about ...zero percent.

It is also obvious that the person speaking is either a pig for a starters or seriopusly damage dby what he is doing in Iraq wheter he is talking about this killing or another one he has done.

Second..The killing in itself is an obvious warcrime and there is no defense whatsoever for it.No talk whatsoever about.."in wartime"...will do to defend this actual killing.

Third.

Since the footage now is all over the place someone will eventually see to it that it is investigated..now or in a year or later.There are plenty of people that would gladly put time and effort into that and i seriuously hope they succed.


If the person doing the commenting on this was actually part of the killing...then he will be charged for warcrimes.

Thats the problem with journalists.

You cant even trust the CNN can you?

You cant get away with just about anything you wish any longer now can you?


Finally...

What we see in these images are a bunch of damaged morons and i sincerely hope they pay for their actions either in front of a jury or in front of God.And most of all i hope that their commanding officers get theirs.Ultimatly the are responsable for what we see in these images.What these soldiers are doing is done wirth the approval (and most likely encouragemant through training) of their officers.


Finally.

If these images had been taken during the invasion ....and the situation had been the opposite...

An american soldier had been wounded on the ground while Iraq`is had executed him while laughing?

What song would YOU have chanted then?



Bluelight

GOG

1. Actually, I have fired an M-16. In fact, I did my military service during 15 months as a sniper, so I know exactly what I'm talking about. I'd estimate the distance to this guy to about 75 metres (it's hard to see on film). At that distance a well trained rifleman will hit beer cans without any problems, even without any optical enhancements. I can agree to that there is a big difference between shooting at paper targets and a real combat situation, but looking at these guys behavior, I'll say that they really enjoyed themselves - like a nice day at the shooting range.

2. What's next, shooting people with deadly diseases? Of course he shot at them, they invaded his country. How many times must we explain to you that you don't stand above international laws? This is a crystal clear violation against the Geneva Convention.

Necrosis

If GOG & Bluelight are so fired up about this then why don't they really do something about it? Instead of ranting on here, write to the their governments..to their UN representatives to get something done about it. I mean if you like closely at most arguements it turns into a stone/stick throwing contest. Truly I wish I had a dollar for everytime you/your is said; like I'm personally responsible for what my government does. I am? I would think if I am responsible then not acting to correct something someone see's as wrong in "international" eyes is even worse.

Falstaff

I refuse to become a toadee for the media, fast editing and unscrupulous reporting for shock value alone is one thing, but actually seeing it is another. CNN or any other news network can report what they will, but IMO it reflects poorly on the news crew and the organization. There are more grotesque examples of the carnage that occurs in war out there, if that satisfys someones interests then it is deeply personal, as for me...seen it and lived it, so I wont marginalize the video by trying to rationalize why men do what they do. I would rather eliminate a threat than wound a threat.

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bluelight

Do something?

Yeah im posting the link wherever i can because it illustrates diseased behaviour from soldiers representing the "largest and freests democracy in the world with a mission to spread the word of true freedom".however these soldiers represent nothing less that Hitlers SS during WW 2.

The film will not need further help from neither me or anyone else.Actually CNN themselves has done all it takes by publishing it.

Jeff.......Toadee for the media..... is not the issue here.The images speaks for themselves .Clearly.You if anyone should be able to see that.

Either one is blind (some are) or one is not.Usualy its a choice we make.

I still haven t had a reply to which song you would have chanted if the wounded soldier had been american and the killers Iraq`is .

Would the Iraq Is in that case have performed a blessed action of relief by killing the wounded American?



Bluelight

bluelight

And...that man was no threat.

Yopu know it.I know it.
Being loyal to ones roots (in your case the military) is one thing but being loyal to it beyond reason isnt demanded anywhere else than i hell.

Bluelight

Falstaff

Blue, a soldier, a marine, a sailor or a pilot or airman must dismiss the conventinal rationale for fair treatment and behavior when executing a mission, eliminating a target or destroying the enemies potentiol to do harm. I dont disagree that war is terrible and the cost of war is lingering. It is unfortunate that men and women must kill or be killed to perform their mission, but it is a story older than time itself
and we all know that conflict and war are one aspect of human behaviour that no one wants to talk about but we all must face one day, in this lifetime or another. And I am forever transformed by it, but I hope my children wont be.
But if asked to do it again, I will do my duty, honorably and I will join my brothers in arms until I have to put my weapons away again. Part of the responsibility of every American is serve their country. You might hear arguments to the contrary, but truly patirotic Americans never hesitate to serve. Here in America or overseas, where ever we are directed to do our duty.
I am a proud American, and proud of the sacrifices we all have made to serve our nation. The world judges us more harshly I know, but that doesnt not bother me as much as the knowlege that my children will face a world where wars continue to be fought

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bluelight

Not buying it.

The man was wounded .No threat to anyone.He was killed and it was done in a way that is aginst the rules of war.That is perfectly clear.


You are talking about America and what you are prepared to do for it.

Sorry that is not the issue here.

The issue here is warcrime.

Actually..if you`d stood up like men and agree that what we see in thses images are asshole behaviour but that you still stand up 100 percent for what your mission in Iraq is about....

Then i`d buy that with respect

But this?Naaah...

I mean its the bloody classic war movie situation that when it is applied to a Nazi ( the thug) in the movie who kills a wounded American or English or whatever we are supposed to hate the German for being a shithead killing someone defenseless.And we do withoput exception.

I do in this case too.

Still interested in hearing what song you guys would have chanted if the person killed had been a wounded American.



Bluelight