Falstaff

This is just the tip of the iceburg

I feel just a little bit uneasy with the knowledge that Mr. Tenet is hiding something. He cannot justify the failures of the intelligience community at large in the wake of the recent controversy with WMD and the ill advisement of Pres. Bush, without accepting some harsh realities. In fact the number of intelligience successes have revealed a number of eye opening revelations about the conspiracy of other nations besides our own, to offer support to the defunct regime in IRAQ. Even I know from my limited combat experience that if the truth were known about the total amount of support given to the coalition armies and the IRAQ army were revealed it would paint a different picture about diplomacy and the world political enviornment. I submit that most of us, exposed to a small percentage of the total information that is generated by the media, have absolutely no idea just how deep the involvement of the warring nations goes. I am afraid that we will never know the entire truth about the intelligence failures in IRAQ by the CIA. If we really knew the truth, I am afraid we would find out that much of this is a ruse, to protect the real story behind the worlds involvement in the the conflicts in the middle east. The politics that set the stage for both Gulf Wars is not peculiar to IRAQ, in fact I forsee another bold conflict within the near future in the historical region of Jordan, Israel, Syria and Russia.
The person that knew the most about the tangled web of deciet in IRAQ is dead, former director of the CIA. Richard Helms and IRAQ
CIA homepage

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bluelight

Actually as far as im concerned he seems to be sayong two things.

1.What he is told to say:We the Cia messed up.

2.What was more true:We didnt mess up ....that much.

Which still leaves all questions unanswered.

But..they will be.

Bluelight

Falstaff

I believe if the questions were all answered, then the credibility of the CIA and the conduct of your own government would come into question as far as back as the original creation of IRAQ by the British

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BluntmaN

Like they are not in question and critisism today?

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'Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know.'
Donald Rumsfeld (And then they say that the White House knows what it's doing)

Falstaff

The governments of England and America may be different today in terms of how the diplomacy is implemented, but I still believe that some similiarities still exist. Global economic powers still influence the direction of support for "rogue" nations. I believe that the terrible errors that were commited prior to the regime change in IRAQ occured so much longer before the terrible wars that delivered the nation to capitulation.

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bluelight

My government?Iraq?

Im not british.

The fact is Bush lied and he did so deliberatly.

That IS a fact.

Even Wolfwhack the architect and the real man in power has admitted just a few days after Bagdad fell that"WE needed the WMD issue to get things going"....Now we are not idiots.

They can investigate their underware if they want.What has been done has been done and they did it publicly.

They cant rewrite that.

Bluelight

BluntmaN

Sometimes I am amazed by your naiveness. The US and other countries have been fighting democracy in many foreign counties for decades. I suggest you leave the conservative nutshell for a few hours and take a good look at the US foreign policies since the begining.

Here is a little something to get you started but I do suggest you do your own searches and research if you want the truth.

A History Of Worldwide US violence.

It doesnt include many smaller crimes like supporting goverments that engage in mass murder, ethnic cleansing, mass rape and other crimes but it has a nice list.

Sure america is not the only country responsible for crimes against humanity but no other country has been so agreasive in their foreign policies for such a long period of time. What is increasingly alerting is the ease with which the US goes to war if you look at post modern America you guys have at least a war per president now this is begining to look more like a habit rather than a coincidence.

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'Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know.'
Donald Rumsfeld (And then they say that the White House knows what it's doing)

Falstaff

if choose to consider my comments as naive rather than an exploration of ideas or consideration for more rational thought then all I can say is that is unfortunate, if you have been paying attention, I have not chosen to insult you at all, but for future reference insults will only diminish my interest in discussing anything of merit with you. I am a gulf war veteran and quite knowlegable about most issues regarding my position on the political climate of the United States. I am a conservative and a republican, but at least I have an open mind. If you make judgements about me or question my varicity, then perhaps future discussions are at best limited to more visceral issues you might find in the media.

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bird chest

Well you would be speaking Russian today if it were not for the US supporting you.

zerodamage

Bluntman, please post credible links. That link looks like a something a 12 year old made after his very first visit on the internet. You may also want to keep your insults to yourself.


Bluelight, this is not a fact. This is your opinion. I said this in another thread. If Bush lied, then so did the UN, Clinton, most of the democrats who are now saying Bush lied yet agreed when Clinton was in office, France, Germany, Russia, The list goes on. Bush went on the same intelligence that everyone else has gone on.


IN regards to the CIA. You rarely if ever hear of the successes of intelligence. You can't talk about the successes. They are after all classified and will jeapordize future success. Trust me, I know. It is easy to point out the few failures when the 100's and 1000's of successes are never heard about.

bluelight

IN what way did the UN lie?Lie about what???

The UN was busy doing the Weaponinspections they had been assigned to do by the majority of nations on this planet.

Bush stopped those inspectipons with the argument that Usa was threatened by Saddam Husseins WMD`s.

Tony Blair and Bush repeatedly claimed "Saddam Hussein" IS in posserssion of WMD´s that threaten us and the rest of the world.

This was the technical (legal) reason to stop the UN inspections and start the invasion BEFORE they were finished.

These are FACTS.

The rest is wordgames and we will see lots of those for forseable future.

As i said before.The invasion was probably inevitable and justified in the long run.BUT.....justÃ*fied was NOT chopping the legs of the UN and thereby bypassing an internatinal organisation who has as defined role to deal with these issues.(I am now also waiting for an invasion of Burma,Saudi Arabia,Libya etc etc etc etc...but...this isnt a STRATEGIC INTEREST to Usa so it will not happen....)

Bush SR.Did NOT play the game like his son....and...he came out of it with honour and the debts for the crusade were finally paid to 80 percent by others than USA .
The reason he came out well is that he used diplomacy which allowed other nations to be part of the coalition without being insulted by stuff like "You are either with us or against us" or the bollocks about "OLD EUROPE" Which of cpourse was an extremely insulting argumentation to any...free nation.



You might say that this is not the reason a coalition was not built but i will insist on this until i die.
The tone used by USA during these weeks months...against Europe and many other nations WAS seen as EXTREMELY insulting and personally i dont slap my son ...if i want him to help me chopping wood.

The reason we have the current situatiuon is that extreme nationalists are in power.
People that dismiss all multilateral action.(Read the security and foreign politics declaration which was written by Wolfwitz already during Bush SR and then rejected for being to extreme...Powell´s line won that time.....and should have this time too...it would have been better for all ..even for Bush JR.Hissecond run for presidency would have been cemented had he not used Wolfwitz,Cheney and Rumsfeld as his leading ideology missionarys.


These people were talking about.....OLD EUROPE ...personally i think their wiew reflects the same OLD imperial style politics that is based on unilateral action as performed by Britain and others in 1800.

So.....Who´s old?

And..French fries....are they still seriously refusing to eat French fries?

BTW....and..i did actually see several "comic" images posted on boards taken from Us media during the time of the Frenchfries bollocks campaign that pictured Chirac as a Nazi or as Hitler.This is not claiming that Bush saw him as Hitler.

It is a measure of temperature...The temperature was set by the curent Republican government and those that rule it...


Bluelight

zerodamage

Bluelight, we've gone over this before and I asked for some evidence of this. I read the papers, many of them each day and never saw this once. So I am curious as to what media did this. I do not wish to argue about it, I just want to see the media in question.


A coalition was built. 45 Nations if my memory serves me right. France and Germany and Russia decided to not be a part of it. Just because they did not join it doesn't mean it is not a coalition.

Why did we invade Iraq? Because Saddam continued to defy that UN even after 1441. He was instructed to turn over papers proclaiming all that he had. How many times did we find things that were not a part of these documents? Did he not use some of these undocumented and BANNED weapons against Kuwait during this last war?

I just do not get all of this. This hatred for Bush is ridiculous. The facts stand in the way of rational thought when you let hatred so dominate your thoughts. This is feeling over riding thinking. If Bush violated international law, then how come charges are not being made? If 1441 was violated how come Bush isn't being held accountable by the UN? How come the UN instead wants to be involved with the reconstruction efforts of Iraq along with France? Makes you wonder.

bluelight

I dont hate Bush.I dislike his politics.It is based on domination and the use of it.

This is what his fathe´r found to extreme in the formulas written by Wolfwitz 10-12 years ago.

That time Powells side stood for multilateralism and it prooved fruitful...Wolfwitz had to stand back.

This time Wolfwitz ,Cheney and Rumsfeld...has floated up to the top...and the politics are of course according to their ideas a nationalistic mess that dismisses multilateralism unless it is performed solely on US terms.

You now have a situation in Iraq due to this that means...YOU PAY ALL...personally if i were American id prefer if Bluelight in Sweden sent some of his cash to pay for the fun.....But...Bluelight and his buddies didnt like beinfg called OLD and lover of dictators etc etc by Us media and also establisment people so ...there will be no money from him until at least Wolfwitz,Cheney Rumsfeld and the rest of them is gone.


Bush...dont have a problem with him.Give him a new set of advisors and he´will be fine as far as im concerned.He has a pretty good impact.

Bluelight

bird chest

I can't source this but I do remember hearing some stuff said that was offensive from France and other countries. I am not justifying what Bush said I am just saying he is not the only one.

digerati

I like French fries. We can't get rid of or hate everything that's French, because if we did we'd have to tear down our beloved statue of liberty.

GutterPunk

Zero You have some good points I agree with you on most of them especially when you said that everyone has lied because this is the same intelligence we have been relying on for years.... and also about the successess that is very true. If the media found out about every success we would be doomed... it would be asinine to attempt to gain intelligence

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