Mazuko

I am only 22 years old, I have not had the experiences that many of you have had, nor have many of you had the experiences that I have. I am the most patriotic individual that I personally know, and frankly it is scary when you realize that those that pretended to be patriotic after September 11th were simply jumping on the band wagon. Do you see the same things today that we did after september 11th? Or even during the Vietnam War? No, we don't but after watching three young AMERICAN CHILDREN playing Terrorists in the park today, I was left with a horrid taste in my mouth and I had to say something.


CItizens of the United States of America,

The state of our Nation is not strong, the state of our Nation is not weak. The state of our Nation is sad . I remember when we as students took pride in The Pledge of Allegiance, I remember when we took our hats off any time the National Anthem was being played. I remember going to Independence Day parades or Veterans Day parades and helping the men who lost their legs in war to their feet when the National Anthem was played. I remember when being an American didn't mean having the best car, the newest clothes, the most money, or the next big thing of the time. I remember when being an American meant helping your neighboors, building forts, playing cowboys and indians, playing army where you hated being the Germans. I remember when being an American meant something to EVERYONE. Not just truck pulls, football, money, and arrogant teenagers. I remember when being an American meant being all we could be, helping the less fortunate, doing what we could to better the lives of everyone. It is a shame that ALL of the children in America today do not have the same memories.


Alot of people have forgotten what The Pledge of Allegiance is, and you know sometimes we need to be reminded what it stands for.

Linked here is a speech given by Red Skeleton, yes Red Skeleton that hillarious clown of old (back when we only had 48 States). He takes the time to explain the Pledge of Allegiance word by word and at the end of his speech he says a few words that foreshadowed our most recent past.

Please, I implore you to listen to this mp3 and state your beliefs and how you personally feel about the Pledge of Allegiance and our great nation.

The United States of America

RedSkeletonPledge.zip

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digerati

I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America. And to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

That's how I remember it.

Dyre Straits

I'm old enough (more than twice your age) to remember seeing Red Skelton's weekly TV program. I recall seeing him, at least once a year, do the Pledge of Allegiance skit he wrote and perfected.

It always brought tears to my eyes and a knot in my throat.

I'm an American patriot, too. And, it saddens me when I encounter those who frown upon one's expressions of patriotism. I may not be proud of everything America has done, but I'm downright proud to be an American!

EDIT: For those who would like a hard copy of this presentation:

http://www.usflag.org/skeltonspledge.html

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digerati

I love this country. That doesn't mean that other countries are worse, but I love this country, because it's mine, it's yours, it's everyones, no matter of race, religion, or sex. I can go out with a Chinese girl and not be spat upon or frowned upon by society, I can go and spend my money my own way, with guidance from my loving parents of course. And if we do get a dumbass as a president, if need be we can impeach him, for we truly have the power, when that gets installed in Iraq they will still hate us, but I will smile because I know they will enjoy their freedom.

bird chest

I am almost sad to be in the America that we are in today. I go down the street and say hi to people who just look away and ignore me. Where the British flag is more trendy to wear then the american flag. We need to have more pride in our country. Instead of whinning so much about what we don't have be happy for what we do have. We have freedom. We have free speech. We have the right to choose our leader. We are the most wealthy country in the world and the most powerful. We need to be thankful but all I see is people who demand more, everything we have is not enough. Just a country working for ourselves no one else. Anyone who does not like it move to Africa for a while and then come back. With all my 17 years of experience this is how I feel.

I am sorry if that was really sappy.

bird chest

Do they hate us I was not under the impression that they did.

SaberZ

Pretty much the way it is anywhere in the world.


Back in the day you could go over to your neighbor's and have a friendly conversation. Nowadays people might have the nerve to call the police because you are on their property. Good or bad


The times have changed, and most of the people have changed with it. Quite sad

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digerati

Let me rephrase. The ones that are on TV hate us. The ones that were living normal daily lives under Saddamn hate us. The ones that felt nothing was wrong with the way he ruled hate us.

Now the other 90% of the country loves us, (you know, the ones that don't have computers, e-mail, etc) but you won't hear about them, wonder why?

The_Neon_Cowboy

yea but now they stopped and are thinking of changing is because it says "god". considering the constitution and our founding was based mostly on religious beliefs it insane.

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The_Neon_Cowboy

Two states? um i've been all over the US thats how its ritten an said everywere (that i know off)... under god is in there.... and they have stoped saying it in schools

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BluntmaN

The past always looks better than the future but this doesnt mean that it is. It is a widely accepted psychological phenomenon that when we look at our past it seems better than today.

As for the unamerican allienation well I guess what it is a widely spread problem affecting most developed countries. Allienation is the plague of the 21st century according to many. We stop trusting and loving those around us for fear that they will not trust or love us back. Mostly it affects urban and metropolitan areas that are overpopulated making it imposible to actually know those around you. This is exactly why we(the chemical generation) go to dance clubs and do drugs cause we simply cannot feel comfortable with total strangers unless we are stoned or on ecstacy.

About the American dream well millions all over America are waking up to find out that it is a children's tale. It is a harsh reality to see the poor sleeping in the street and folks willing to kill you for a pair of trainers but it is true never the less.

As for Iraq and how much the Iraqis love you and the freedom you guys imposed on them well all I have to say is that freedom is never given it is earned with sacrifice and blood.

Finaly about the god word ..... I am not going to touch this with a ten foot pole.

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GutterPunk

Bandwagon this Bandwagon that... what happened to America supposed to be about unique indivuduals... Everything has turned so socially run things do get out of hand. Wow this speach is great! Our schools have set these standards as we grow up with... having to wear the nicest clothes drive the best car etc. this generation has grown up with this and i worry more and more on how things will change because things will! Most likely not for the good.... This country was built on the principles of GOD the reason why we came here for our religious freedoms... Things need to change.... why must we nit pick?

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bluelight

God?

Which one?

Bluelight

raid517

I think he means the American one Blue...

GJ

digerati

While I don't exactly believe in the whole God set this land aside for us and the manifest destiny crap which helped cause the removal and transplantation of native Americans (which was just utterly horrible), I do believe this land is something special.

Mazuko

Manifest Destiny was great for the European. Do keep in mind however the timeperiod of which this particular audio clip was made in. It was a time of totally different ideological beliefs as to manifest destiny etc. etc. etc.

American God? Don't be so bull headed.

I actually yelled at those kids that were PLAYING THE ATTACK ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER as the FRICKING TERRORISTS!! I litterally yelled at them so loudly that their mother came out and apologized for their blatant stupidity and disreguard. Their MOTHER APOLOGIZED and they had no fricking idea what they were in trouble for!! WHAT THE HECK?

This topic was made for that reason.

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digerati

While to the muslim world we are considered a Christian nation, I think that God applies to any God, be it Jesus, Jahovah, Allah, or whatever. I think it was kind of left open like that for your own God to step in.

raid517

Well I can't fathom where you are coming from on this one really. One thing about manifest destiny is that this was a delusion my own country (the UK) suffered at one time too. Because we were special - and because we were blessed by God, it somehow gave us a right to take over the world - with total disregard for what any of the people in the countries we took over thought about t.

At the time the belief was that we were really such nice people - and really our way was far better than anyone else's way - and although the locals might object initially to us taking over their country - eventually in time they would come to love us when they saw the benefits of cooperating.

I have heard exactly those attitudes expressed by several American members of this forum. Indeed I expect any large dominant power eventually comes to feel that way - that because they currently enjoy some success in the world, their status must mean that they have been blessed by God.

It doesn't always take too long for a country to come unstuck if they start to believe this too much.

Again like Blue said, what about the people of this world who believe in different Gods, or who simply have different belief structures? Are you going to compel (or even just pressure) them to swear allegiance to a God to which they don't believe? Surely then you are asking them to swear a false allegiance to the pledge as a whole?

I don't think anyone is under any illusion about exactly what God they are supposed to be swearing allegiance to. Even though you say it could be any god, with maybe 3 people in a class of 30, there is certainly no mystery who the other 27 think they are praying to. There is no clause denoting the ability to express a personal preference in the pledge, as far as I am aware of.

I swear allegiance under God seems to narrow. Swearing allegiance while defending the rights of all men to believe in whomever they should so please sounds a far more practical way to go about things - if that is, swearing allegiance to a country has any real value at all.

GJ

digerati

You aren't swearing allegiance to the "God." You are swearing to the republic under the protection of "God" which brings us back to the thinking of this land was put here by "God." The whole Manifest destiny thing, this is a land with many climates, resources, and fertile land. Just California alone produces enough corn to feed the entire nation. So you aren't swearing allegiance to any God, but to the republic, which is under the protection of God, if you don't believe in any God then it just leaves the republic protected by man then.

Take out the under God if you want to, it's not that important to me. Seems kind of silly to have it there anyways, I doubt God would bless or protect this entire nation.

BWX

Explaining God to an atheist is like explaining color to a blind man. If you don't believe in God, don't say it- no one is ever holding a gun to anyone's head.


Really? Who on this forum that is American has expressed this view? I want proof in the form of links to posts before I believe that crap.

raid517

I'm pretty sure I know what God is supposed to be. I had it drummed into me for long enough when I was growing up. Unfortunately I just never bought it.

As for previous commentary about some Americans believing their way is so much better than anyone else's - there are lots of examples of this on these threads, but since I'm feeling slightly lazy today, try the above comment for size:

As I said that sounds suspiciously like when they see the benefits of our way of life they will eventually come round to our way of thinking.

If you want to get into a round of nitpicking, then feel free. But again this feeling of a nation, republic, people or whatever blessed by God is nothing new. People have felt it since before the Greeks, Romans and Egyptians - and probably believed it as much as a lot of Americans do today.

It is just a phase. In time it will pass.

GJ

BWX

Yeah, that' the way most people feel, and most Americans don't hate other countries for any reason. The funny thing is, most other countries have large populations that hate the US with a passion. Did you hear the Mexican crowd at a soccer match chanting Usama, Usama, Usama, and booing the American team, the US, and the "God bless America" song - (or maybe it was the National Anthem, not sure) - But still, not everyone, but huge populations in many counties absolutely hate you and me and everything about this country for their own selfish reasons..

Did you watch Conan Obrian the last few days? He's in Toronto, and that damn crowd was booing the Seattle Space Needle! They had no sense of humor at all- every American thing Conan mentioned even as a joke the crowed angrily boo-ed and shouted.. I know that not all Canadians hate the US, but a whole bunch of them do- with no sense of humor at all. When Canadians or people from any other country stand up in the crowd in the US at the Conan Show or Leno show, they are applauded, and the US crowed applauds people from other countries. All I see is hatred from most other countries directed at the US, it's bullshit. First thing you see when Conan was doing interviews was French speaking Canadians ranting about Bush- those people have no sense of humor. Seriously , people need to lighten up. Most Americans don't have one ounce of ill will toward any other country or their citizens, accept for maybe France after all that crap with the war- But even that will fade, still countries all over the world will continue to hate the US for no other reason than jealousy as far as I can tell. It's ridiculous- the damn Mexican crowd that was chanting Usama probably got most of their money from relatives working in the US and sending it back to them or American tourists spending money down there.. Mexico is a country that exists because of the support of the US, they should be grateful, but no, they boo the American soccer team. That is complete bullshit and we should send that country a message after that display- but of course we won't, we will continue to support that country as a friend, as they spit on us when we turn around, or in our face in this case.. Pretty dumb of us I'd say.

Any Canadians shouldn't get pissed because I reported what I saw- I take every person as an individual and have no prejudice. The internet in most cases is a whole different ballgame- MOST of the time it seems people can get over their prejudices when posting in a forum like this, MOST of the time... In fact I spent allot of time in Canada last year, about 3 weeks all together, in the town of Windsor, Ontario-
Most people there were quite friendly, but you could tell there were some that picked up on our accent and the way we "dressed like Americans" and gave us some dirty looks. I remember ordering some frenchfries at a restaurant one night in Windsor, it was an open type restaurant and I remember when I ordered them the waitress kind of paused, raised her voice quite a bit and said "did you say FRENCH FRIES?"

Everyone in the restaurant kinda paused and looked around as if I were going to say "Freedom fries" or something... there was about 50 people in there- LOL what a bunch nutcases! I have never said Freedom fries ever, and never will- they are French fries and have been for the last 31 years of my life. It's almost like the whole restaurant wanted me to say freedom fries so they could wait outside and mug me when I finished my meal and so the cook could have reason to spit in my food.. Seriously, it was that bad. The funny thing is, when she asked me that, I didn't even think about it- it didn't hit me till 5 minutes later that the whole reason she paused was to make me say "French fries" again. LOL After that it seemed like she was much friendlier to us, as was the rest of the people in the place, like somehow because I didn't say freedom fries that I was "cool with the French people" or something.. I swear to God this happened, and it was nothing but funny to me that grown adults would care if I said freedom fries or French fries.. I think next time I'll say freedom fries just to see what reaction I get, then of course I will leave the restaurant because I'm sure my food will not be as pure as I would like after that..
Again, I'm not bashing Canadians, most Canadian people I know are right here on DH, and all seem to be cool as hell. This was just one of my real life experiences from the last time I went to Canada, which I actually had fun doing, it's a cool place overall. It's just strange how much anti-American sentiment there is out there, I can't imagine going to France, I'd fear for my life. Most of those people hate us and they probably don't even know why- I never did anything to those people, and I don't personally have anything against them, accept of course for the fact that they hate the US?! Insanity I tell ya, freaking insanity.

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digerati

It's not a matter of coming around to our way of thinking. It's a matter of them not being shot/tortured/stoned/raped because they don't agree with a ruthless dictator.

BWX

Well I don't see how that comment fits the bill.

[color=red]"One thing about manifest destiny is that this was a delusion my own country (the UK) suffered at one time too. Because we were special - and because we were blessed by God, it somehow gave us a right to take over the world - with total disregard for what any of the people in the countries we took over thought about t. I have heard exactly those attitudes expressed by several American members of this forum. Indeed I expect any large dominant power eventually comes to feel that way - that because they currently enjoy some success in the world, their status must mean that they have been blessed by God."[/color]

Well, I don't see how even that quote above is describing what you said you saw from American forum members. We are not "taking over" anything. If that statement was made after we attacked a country and wanted to set up our own government and take over, then yes, I would agree with you. I believe that statement is about the war in Iraq, and that meant they are talking about us kicking out a murderous dictator and turning the country over to a government that the people of that county elected.


You are comparing overtaking a country "delusional Manifest destiny" with kicking out a dictator and handing over the country to it's own citizens. ( in June, by the way, if all goes well) Obviously you are stretching your definition in your little quote there way beyond reality. So that point is not yet proven. No one here said we are blessed by God so we have the right to go take over Iraq, you are twisting the whole reason we went there way out of context, We are not taking over, we FREED the Iraqi people and 99% of them say they are happier now. Maybe your news channels and papers edit that part out so you haven't heard that yet, but that's the reality. The Iraqi people are glad Saddam is gone. Anyone that lives in a country that has free speech not controlled by the government is aware of that fact. Iraqi's hated Saddam and are happy he is gone and they are glad they have FREEDOM now. Even though now they are under attack from terrorist as well and are paying for their freedom just like the people from any free country in the world, they are still happy that Saddam is gone. Just like the rest of the wold, so I cannot see how people on this forum expressing that is anything like you are saying about your "manifest destiny" theory. Furthermore that thing you quoted isn't even a complete sentence - the object of the preposition is conveniently left out (when "that" gets installed)-- huh?? what is "that" represent and who is it from? Pretty weak example if you ask me. *edit spelling

Even if there is some crazy on this forum that "says" they are from the US and actually said we should take over other countries and express that "attitude" you were talking about, they would be less than 1% of the people that express what they actually think about what we should be doing around the world.. But I'm still open to reading quotes from American members that say things that you say fit your theory about how countries have delusions about some manifest destiny- I still don't believe it and I don't think that post you quoted proves what you said.

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raid517

@BWX232 Lol you do it to yourselves I tell ya... What people despise is the veneer and double standards. The way you go about preaching how you support freedom and democracy in the world, while installing 'friendly dictators' to further your so called strategic ends. The latest of these storms I see brewing is in Haiti with Jean-Bertrand Aristide - yet another US installed dictator that as soon as he was granted power, rapidly set about doing what these dictators seem to do best, which is killing and oppressing his people. I mean, after all the examples there has been (and yes I can easily point them out for you if you want) the US government can hardly claim that it is a surprise to them anymore when it happens.

As for the Soccer match... Man, maybe it is you who is lacking a sense of humor? You have to understand the mentality of a soccer crowd. It is little more than controlled thuggery. I guess the US is still a little new to the soccer scene, but it is almost traditional for soccer fans to try to rip each others throats out after a game. You haven't heard half the insults a soccer crowd in full flight can come up with. The whole point of it is to incite the other side into violence. For such a seemingly genteel game, soccer can have a particularly brutal fan base. If you ever go to a big football match you can really sense the aggression and excitement. It's not like American football at all - which is really more of a family day out.

Besides which, I doubt some poor Mexican slaving away in some sweatshop for less than minimum wage (is there such a thing in the US?) would really feel they have all that much to be grateful to you for. They probably have to work damn hard for the little money they get - and as a consequence I expect that they are within their rights to believe that they don't owe you a damn thing.

As for Canadians not liking you, well it's not a surprise that they would side with the French. I mean surely you are aware that Canada has a fairly strong French identity and that they have an extremely high number of native French speaking people?

Your problem is in linking a whole bunch of unrelated stuff together and then putting it up as a single reason why everybody 'dislikes America.' If you thought it through a little more, then surely you would see that some people feel that they have some very legitimate reasons not to?

You appear to live in some perfect little bubble, where everything the US does is just and good. Unfortunately the reality is that this is not the way the rest of the world sees it.

GJ

raid517

@^_^ and associates: Comeon though.... Don't you just secretly feel that America is a blessed country and that really there are a lot of countries in this world who could do worse than adopt the American system? Even if you do not share that view, I know a lot of Americans I have spoken to who do.

I don't want to get into the whole Iraq thing on this thread. That has been covered already. But in any case Iraq was a direct detraction from the norm - since it was possibly the only one direct example where America (and her allies, for what they amounted to) openly invaded and occupied another country.

Again - and I really don't want this to descend into another Iraq debate - I think it is highly debatable that if most ordinary Iraqis ever felt that they needed 'liberating', from Saddam, that they wouldn't have chosen their other sworn enemy to do it.

We didn't win any friends when we abandoned them in 1991 - nor by torturing them with 10 years of sanctions. Nor can it be claimed that what we did in 1991 was particularly just. Clearly we weren't interested then in promoting the ideals of democracy and freedom, since all we did was reinstall an already discredited and corrupt dictatorial regime.

Now I know you might say that everyone deserves a chance to put right their mistakes, however it will still take you a long time if ever to overcome that store of resentment that was built up over this period.

All we were interested in 1991 was oil - there was no other reason - it was a done deal - so why should anyone believe anything different now? (Even if as I believe it is far from as straightforward as that).

Anyway, this really is starting to wander off topic.

GJ

BWX

We UN-installed Saddam, that's it. We installed no "friendly dictators"- again, false claims, give proof.
I preach nothing- never have. People despise double standard, OK, so what's that supposed to mean? It has nothing to do with me unless you are saying I have double standards which you didn't.


Oh, talk about a double standard, chanting Usama and booing an American sports team is OK, we need a sense of humor. Whatever. That's the lamest excuse for an open display of anti-Americanism I've ever heard. It just proves I'm right, that countries hate the US for their own selfish reasons. Chanting the name of a terrorist who murdered 3000 Americans and other people from all over the world is not part of the game, if you justify it, fine- it just proves you will try to justify anything.


Yes, that's because most US citizens are intelligent, thinking people who actually contain a moral value, unlike the "thugs who incite violence and try to rip each other's throats out". But it's OK, we just need a sense of humor. WTF? You are proving my point, that those people hate the US for NO reason.

Oh really? I guess that those 10 MILLION illegal aliens that have full access to our welfare system, health care system, and all the other entitlements they can steal aren't a parasite to our economy and don't owe the hard working taxpayer a thing? We have enough deadbeats that were born here, we don't need 10 million more from Mexico- I guess you think all those entitlement are just free and fall out of the sky. News flash, they are paid for by hard working Americans- those illegals owe the American taxpayer who pay for their welfare.
If their life is so horrible here, why do they flock here by the millions and risk their life to do so in many case? Because it's a free rife for them, it's meal ticket- a free doctor, a better life than they have n their own messed up country.




OIC, so your excuse for Canadians that hate Americans is that they identify w/ French people. Man you make this too easy. Another lame excuse. Another justification for anti-Americanism. This time your thinking is so incomplete you forgot to ad any false facts to back up your claims. Of course you really didn't make any claims accept that Canadians are French so "of course that's why they hate you". What's your excuse? Are you French too? bleh- prove my point, there is NO valid reason.


*edit- actually I never gave any reasons but jealousy, I am looking for reasons. hello? the only one giving reasons is you, and your descriptions of those reasons of being a bunch of unrelated stuff is true, but they were your reasons, not mine.
I never said "everybody dislikes America" like you just falsely quoted. Actually I could care less if they do- I just think they have no other reason that jealousy. I think things through plenty, if you would think things through more you could come up with a valid reason why people hate Americans other than "we install friendly dictators" (untrue)
"they are French", or my favorite, "they play soccer, so just have a sense of humor".




No, I live in America, DUDE- the land of the FREE and the home of the BRAVE. The part of the rest of the world that hate the US (the certain people who hate us, which is not everybody as you have misquoted me) , do so for no good reason that I have seen. And you certainly haven't given me any valid reasons. You infact gave me some insight about how absolutely immature, petty, and irrational the people who do hate us really are. Actually, I bet you could give me allot more info about people who hate the US, for some reason I think you may hold all the answers I would ever need about the subject. You sure have an excuse for every group of people around the world who do, don't you?

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BWX

yeah, I guess those Kuwaiti people meant nothing, after all- they are just humans, not like the oil, that is far mare valuable?


Maybe it's off topic for you, but this is how I feel about my country ad the state of the world today. Actually, the topic was abpout how Americans feel about America, anyone can post here- just like anyone can live in America. I live in Buffalo NY, what state do you live in again? lol, j/k






I'm still waiting for the quotes from forum members though, that;s what got this whole thing started and I really don't think any Americans on furum have posted any kind of ideas sucj as this:

"One thing about manifest destiny is that this was a delusion my own country (the UK) suffered at one time too. Because we were special - and because we were blessed by God, it somehow gave us a right to take over the world - with total disregard for what any of the people in the countries we took over thought about t. I have heard exactly those attitudes expressed by several American members of this forum. Indeed I expect any large dominant power eventually comes to feel that way - that because they currently enjoy some success in the world, their status must mean that they have been blessed by God."

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BluntmaN

Proof: Kuwait. Kuwait's dictator is a fine example of a "US friendly" tyrant. Did you liberate Kuwait? No. Do you care about Kuwait's freedom? No. Why? Cause their dictator is "US friendly". If this is not proof of double f@cking standards what is?

Want to know why there is so much anti-americanism in the world?

1953: U.S. overthrows Prime Minister Mossadeq of Iran. U.S. installs Shah as dictator.
1954: U.S. overthrows democratically-elected President Arbenz of Guatemala. 200,000 civilians killed.
1963: U.S. backs assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem.
September 11, 1973: U.S. stages coup in Chile. Democratically elected president Salvador Allende assassinated. Dictator Augusto Pinochet installed. 5,000 Chileans murdered.
1977: U.S. backs military rulers of El Salvador. 70,000 Salvadorans and four American nuns killed.
1980's: U.S. trains Osama bin Laden and fellow terrorists to kill Soviets.
1981: Reagan administration trains and funds "contras". 30,000 Nicaraguans die.
1982: U.S. provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians.
1983: White House secretly gives Iran weapons to help them kill Iraqis.
1989: CIA agent Manuel Noriega (also serving as President of Panama) disobeys orders from Washington. U.S. invades Panama and removes Noriega. 3,000 Panamanian civilian casualties
1991: U.S. enters Iraq. Bush reinstates dictator of Kuwait.
1998: Clinton bombs "weapons factory" in Sudan. Factory turns out to be making aspirin.
2001, USA gives billions of dollars to Pakistan, the leader of which is a dictator
March 2003, USA invades Iraq "operation Iraqi freedom"

If you are so freedom loving why do you actively support dictatorships?


Man in sports like soccer the fans act like thugs so they chanted Usama big deal. Start watching more soccer and you ll see this has nothing to do with politics it is a thug like behaviour and it is the reason people go to these games. They shout abuse you shout abuse occasionally a fight erupts and occasionally 10 people get beaten to death. These thugs go there to pick a fight it is their way to let steam out. If you dont like it dont watch/support it.

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Donald Rumsfeld (And then they say that the White House knows what it's doing)

BWX

I'm not a zombie like those empty headed wannabes. You couldn't pay me enough.

plus I could care less about soccer- who saiud anyhting about soccer accept for that just happens to be where the terrorist chant took place. Get real.

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