BluntmaN

While browsing through the net I found a couple of articles concerned with the Guantanamo Bay situation. Up until an hour ago I thought that what was going on in Guantanamo bay was just against basic human rights but now I have come to understand that it goes against international law as well.

Read for yourselves what it is all about:
Is Guantanamo Bay a Big Mistake?
Holding human rights hostage

Now to some it may seem ok to arrest and imprison a terrorist and keep him without a lawyer but it is not.
First of all not all prisoners in Guantanamo bay are terrorists.
Secondly international law and basic human rights both agree that "Every person is innocent until it is proven otherwise".
Thirdly even terrorists are humans therefore their rights must be preserved according to international and US law.

US is not 100% responsible for this rape of basic human rights. It was pushed towards it by the terrorists behind the 9/11 but we must understand that these rights should not be taken away no matter the circumstances. Besides, the fact that a terrorist act "forced" the US to violate human rights is the biggest victory for the terrorists it crippled the "American way" of freedom and democracy. In effect after 9/11 America is increasingly becoming "The land of the patiot acts and the home of the scared".

__________________
'Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know.'
Donald Rumsfeld (And then they say that the White House knows what it's doing)

digerati

Not all of the people there are terrorists. Some are innocents. And also some were caught shooting at us, which makes them enemies, criminals, or whatever you'd like to call it. But they get 3 square meals a day, a holy man of their religion, and they don't die. Compared to what our troops usually receive when they get captured I can't say anything bad about Guantanamo bay.

Logla

That still doesn't make it right though.

digerati

It doesn't make it right. But when put on the scale, of what we do to prisoners and what the world does to ours, they should probably count their blessings.

Logla

True

digerati

What really bothers me is that if we weren't under international spotlight, would we treat prisoners as well as we do or just do as the rest of the world does and torture/execute them.

Dawnrazor

Actually almost all nations do respect the Geneva Convention when it comes to our troops who are taken prisoner. And indeed with most troops of any nation, because it usually insures the same treatment for their own troops.

By declaring that we don't have to abide by it , we legitimize other nations mistreating troops, (ours, or others), in the future.

__________________
I am the way to the city of woe
I am the way to the forsaken people
I am the way to eternal sorrow
Come...Walk with me

GOG

LOL, some were caught shooting at you? Isn't that the proper action to take if someone crosses your border with armed forces? Again, this is a violation against the Geneva Convention. Your President has proclaimed a "state of truth" in both Iraq and Afghanistan, not releasing POW's to their countries is a crime. It is also a crime to hold prisoners without charges, I don't care what your laws say about this. You can apply those on your own citizens, I don't care. But when you apply them on people outside your borders, you sure as hell should follow international laws.

digerati

It's a direct violation of the Geneva Convention, as well as our Constitution and Bill Of Rights. I'm not doing to deny that, it is a violation of both of those, and no it isn't right.

And by the way GOG, you can't just waltz on in here without telling us where you've been! How are ya man?

Really now? So our girls who were taken capture in Iraq weren't beaten and raped? That's very interesting.. And during the first gulf war, our POWs weren't beaten and burned in the face and put on Iraqi TV, because they completely abide by the Geneva Convention.

Al_Vampyre

Whether or not other countries abide by the Geneva convention is irrelevant, a civilized nation that is a signatory to the convention should abide by it. Anything else just lowers your own nation to thier level. Not something to be proud of...

__________________
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad" - Brian O'Driscoll - Ireland Rugby Team 2009 Grand Slam winning Captain.

GOG

Just fine, thx. I've been upgrading my internet connection to a little more pleasant speed, unfortunately the upgrade wasn't so pleasant but atleast they let me keep my IP

raid517

Well they can't keep these guys there indefinately right?

I think the reason most of you guys don't care is because they are just a bunch of Arabs. If It was white middle class Americans, do you think you would be so complacant? I'm actually quite curious about that.

The one American who did get caught, got legal representation and was tried. Kind of stinks of double standards if you ask me.

I mean, if they are guilty, what's to fear from giving them a trial and legal representation?

GJ

digerati

While this may be true for the majority of the population. I'm a middle-class Mexican Hebrew. And I'm more lower middle class, but hey I think I've got some nice perks to be thankful for.

I never said it was something to be proud of, not once. And I never said it was right. I'm just saying that looking on the scale of things, I don't see this as such an atrocity compared to what our troops face when they get deployed. Our troops have to keep it in the back of their minds that if they're captured they're more than likely going to be tortured, raped, exploited, and then killed. Now that isn't right either, it's a hell of a lot more wrong if you ask me. And having to keep this mentality in the back of their heads does make a difference whether or not other countries follow the Geneva Convention.

I just tend to look at it this way, would you rather be captured by Iraq, or the US. I'm not saying it's right, but on the grand scheme of things I'll take the US capturing me any day.

BluntmaN

I think some of you need to go back and read the articles again. This has nothing to do with the Iraq war. Armed Iraqi's captured by US forces have been treated as POWs and that is not the issue. The prisoners in Guantanamo bay -who are subject to 23 and a half hour lock down- are aledgedly Al qaeda fighters and terrorist. Some of them have been arrested in relation to 9/11 others where arrested in Afganistan for attacking US troops. They are officially called "illegal combatants" and therefore the US say that POW rules do not aply. However call them what you will they are biologicaly identical to Homo Sapiens and therefore HUMANS so international laws of human rights aply. China has faced much critisism for tactics similar to these, I am not talking about the torture and murder allegations but allegations about illegal detention and unacceptable living conditions. For those too lazy to read about the conditions I ll sum it up for you:
1) They are being held in many cases without being charged and in other cases without being allowed to know all the information of the charges.
2) Many of them have been denied legal representation.
3) The cells where they are held are tiny, extremly hot and they only get two 15 minutes brakes a day one to shower and another to exercise.
4) They have been denied the right to chalenge their status before a tribunal as defined in the Geneva convention.
5) They have extremly limited communication with their families and in many cases they were not allowed to contact their family about their whereabouts and what happened to them for a month or more.
6) They are being interogated without lawyers present and without proper explanation of legal documents they are called to sign.

__________________
'Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know.'
Donald Rumsfeld (And then they say that the White House knows what it's doing)

bluelight

Guantanamo bay is a concentration camp held on occupied territory just as the concentration camps usa keep on Diego Garcia and in Afghanistan.

Those responsable for then are of course criminals since they violate international human rights laws.International agreements on juridical procedures etc etc..



The one thing Usa is to do is to charge all prisoners or release them.

There is no other alternative.

Bluelight

digerati

1) They are being held in many cases without being charged and in other cases without being allowed to know all the information of the charges.
This is a big violation, no real debates there but I am sure some KNOW why they're there.

2) Many of them have been denied legal representation.
They deserve lawyers.

3) The cells where they are held are tiny, extremly hot and they only get two 15 minutes brakes a day one to shower and another to exercise.
Define tiny, because prison cells aren't usually very big. Yes it's hot, it's cuba, but then again Afghanistan is also hot.

4) They have been denied the right to chalenge their status before a tribunal as defined in the Geneva convention.
Think this kind of ties in with #1 but yes they deserve this.

5) They have extremly limited communication with their families and in many cases they were not allowed to contact their family about their whereabouts and what happened to them for a month or more.
I'm wondering about this a bit. Like what kind of communication, do their families all have phones at all? If not this could make communication somewhat difficult for the US to carry out, and might have to go out of its way to carry out. But if the families are a phone call away then they should be able to contact the family much more frequently.

6) They are being interogated without lawyers present and without proper explanation of legal documents they are called to sign.
This one I'm curious about, if there are no lawyers or otherwise official people there, how do you know they aren't given a proper explanation of the legal documents they are called to sign?

bird chest

Maybe I am missing the entire point but when I first read this thread I thought he was talking about the could be terrorists we arrested inside the US after september 11th. I have no idea why I quoted you.

bird chest

Where did you get this info? I figured something like that would be all over the news. Cause if that is true then that is awful. Mainly the 2 15 minute periods outside and the small cells. I was not under the impression that the geneva convention said they get a lawyer. Cause I am pretty sure they are allowed to interogate the pow. But when put in military court they get a lawyer. But I have to confess ignorance on this subject.

Dawnrazor

None of that was ever proven...no evidence was ever offered that their wounds were anything but combat injuries.

Even Jessica Lynch says that the account the Pentagon gave of her capture was made up and she has no memory of the alleged rape. And that her treatment in hospital by the Iraqis was very civilized.

Several of our own troops have been disiplined for abusing Iraqi prisoners however...

Of course there's also the little fact the detainees at Quantanamo are from AFGANISTAN and were taken BEFORE the whole mess in Iraq started.

__________________
I am the way to the city of woe
I am the way to the forsaken people
I am the way to eternal sorrow
Come...Walk with me

raid517

Mmm... Yeah these guys tend to do that a lot. They get their historical periods horribly mixed up - like somehow in their minds one historical event blends into another. Very strange. Maybe if you watch too much TV that's what happens...?

Some of these guys actually believe that the war in Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - indeed over 60% of those questioned in a survay just after the war said they thought Saddam was somehow responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

I''ll never forget the image of one young soldier serving in Iraq explaining that he had joined up to specifically avenge his fallen comerades in the twin towers tradgedy - while loading artillery shell daubed with the numbers 9/11 on the side written in red paint - presumably to represent the blood of those who died.

It is for exactly these reasons that often to an outsiders eyes, it seems like a very confused culture.

GJ

BluntmaN

Bird_chest most of this information has come from amnesty international. Their research contains interviews with prisoners and former prisoners, lawyers, officials. Also they were allowed in Guantanamo bay where they got the info about the conditions I mentioned. Also the prisoners in Guantanamo bay are foreign nationals who were arrested all over the world including America in ascociation with Al Qaeda.

^_^
Tiny meaning that a container has been divided into 8 cells now that is trully small. Due to the fact that cuba is a hot country you cant keep somebody in a container for 23 and a half hours a day it should be considered torture.

The right to chalenge ones status is diferent than the right to legal representation. This was put in place by the Geneva convention so that when a farmer's house is raided during a war and he is arrested in possetion of a shotgun he can change his status from POW to civilian and be freed. With that right revoked there are many questions about whether those held there are actually related with terrorism or acts against the US. There are two massive problems in the way the US army gains information about who to arrest.
1) Many arrested by the US army come from Pakistani bounty hunters who sometimes kidnap people to present them to the US army as terrorists.
2) In places were the Al Qaeda was in charge most civilians were forced to join or be killed and in some cases such civilians end up in Guantanamo bay although their only crime was to have a farm in the wrong place.

By not allowed to communicate I dont mean that the number is busy or that their families have no phone. Many of the families have repeatedly requested information about the whereabouts of a prisoner and that information was not given. Also there is a large ammount of families who now are protesting for visits and more rights just google Guantanamob bay families and you ll find their site(which I havent visited so that emotion doesnt bias me).

That is just the tip of the iceburg actually because some former prisoners have reported mistreatment and phychological torture but this cannot be proven simply because the only people in the room were the interogators and the prisoners. Having a lawyer present during interogation is not only to protect the prisoners rights but also to avoid fake alegations but since this doesnt happen there is no way to know the truth.
Btw for those of you that are a bit sceptical of the posibility that a fellow American would torture a prisoner just picture yourself and Bin Laden alone in a room and ask yourself whether you would kick his ass or not.

__________________
'Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know.'
Donald Rumsfeld (And then they say that the White House knows what it's doing)

digerati

I don't doubt that whatsoever. I can definitely see torture as a possibility, but they mentioned psychological torture, I don't really know much about psychological torture, only physical. Like electro-shock, and pulling out fingernails and such.

digerati

So you're calling the POWs from the first gulf war that were put on TV weren't harmed at all? And even being put on TV is a violation of the Geneva convention, if you want to nitpick. And that dude with the burns on his face got that from...A gun he was firing?

Also it has been said that the Pentagon over-exaggerated Jessica Lynch's story. But I wasn't talking about her.



Okay wow don't want to contradict you but Bluntman who's on your side even said that they are taken from all over, including the US itself, Afghanistan, and various other countries.





I hate to say it but a lot and I mean A LOT of Americans are complete idiots. There was a school where over half of the kids (freshmen - seniors) were ditching to protest the war in Iraq. When our local news interviewed 200 students most of them though Osama Bin Laden was the leader of Iraq. I wanted to just go and smack some of those people around lol

bluelight

Its not the people that are stupid.They know what they reasonably can know.
If they believed Bin Ladin was leading Iraq..then there is a reason for that.Media and the way it is run is one of the answers.

Bluey

raid517

Lol... Now that is freakiing nuts!

And to think these people are allowed to vote. There ought to be a basic inteligence test, like a quiz before you vote about some items in the news. If you get it wrong, you blow your chance.

Lol, anyway here is something to think about, I recon I can name at least 17 current world leaders and their respective capital cities without having to look it up.

17 isn't much - but it's something to aim for. I wonder then, how many you and your republican buddies can name? Maybe two? More than two? Perhaps three? I'd guess almost definately no more than 5. And before Tony Blair became involved in this little spat over Iraq - who among you would even know the name of our last Prime Minister?

Not only it seems do you guys have a poor understanding of international affairs, you often also it seems have next to no understanding about what is happening in the rest of the world. Yet somehow you still feel you have a right to come to quite a lot of definate conclusions about it. How can you know if what your govenment is doing is right, if you have no conception of what is going on in the world outside the borders of the USA?

If I were you, with your country being as large and active in the world as it is, I would want to make every effort I could to know what my government was doing.

GJ

digerati

A bit of an update about Guantanamo Bay. Tonight at 11 o'clock my local news will be showing a new piece on the "changes" made on how the prisoners live. I'll record it into vcd if any of you would like me to.

raid517

Yeah... If you have a server stick it on... I'll take a peek.

Whatever it is I doubt they will be living in luxuary at the Hilton - more like you goverment is finally becomming sensitive to all the criticism of their polocies.

I'm sure it will wear off if they win the electiion.

GJ

digerati

I have a server but not much space on it >.< Any of you have hosting available?

BluntmaN

Psychological torture is a very effective method of making someone speak without leaving physical scars that prove torture. Methods of psychological torture include:
1)Sleep deprevation.
2)Threatening like pulling a gun and sticking it on the prisoners face or playing russian roulete.
3)Sensory deprevation. As one former prisoner said he was handcuffed on a chair naked and blindfolded throughout the interogation session.
4)Hanging someone over a building and threatening to drop him.
5)Chaining someone on a bench face up and then continually purring water on his mouth and nose which causes the same psychological effects as drowning.
7)A similar one which is not used anymore was invented by the Chinese instead of pouring water they would let it drip drop by drop onto someones forehead. This could last a few weeks and in the end it usually drove the victims insane.
6)Puting someone in a container so small that he can't lie down and then filling a part of it with cold water living him there for a few days(North Koreans are fond of this).

A friend of mine who is in the special forces was telling me stories one night of the Greek POW training camp where special forces are trained to withstand torture one story went a little something like this:
"They had two guys in a cell one was chained on the wall hanging down so that only the tips of his feet could touch the ground while the other one was tied kneeling with his hands back and his face on a stool. Every 8 hours they switched places and fed for five minutes. After 3-4 days the commanding officer let a couple of guys in during the night who discharged a magazine of blanks in the cell with an M-16. One of the guys began crying while the other began banging his head against the wall. The srink that oversaw the exercise was screaming to the CO to stop the exercise but the guy kept going for a couple of days regardless."

__________________
'Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know.'
Donald Rumsfeld (And then they say that the White House knows what it's doing)

bluelight

In Argentina the same type of training has now lead to prison for those responsable.

This type of training has only one purpose:
To satisfy the twisted and mentally disturbed minds of those that performs it.

It does not lead to that the one "doing the training" will be more efficent,Torture is nothing that can be "taught to support".


Being a Nazi is not a question of politics.

Being Nazi is a state of mind.

Some have closer to it than others.

Some of those end up military and in charge of training like this.

It was people like this that slaughtered thousands of people during the fascist governmenyt in Chile and Argentina and in other places.

Finally....Guantanamo is an example of what a a similar "state of mind" can produce.



Bluelight