Wait so let me get this straight?

raid517 · Apr 8, 2004, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bird chest
Then why did you quote my post. Second yes we are talking about Muslims and comparing them to western and Christian societies. Don't believe me read the posts and you started that trend.

Because you are still doing it. Hey I'm trying to cut you a break here - but you insist on going back to a stance where you compare all Muslims to terrorists.

And just to clarify for you I have not just been talking about Muslims - I have tried 50 times already (apparently unsuccessfully) to get you to make a distinction between ordinary Muslims and terrorists. But somehow it appears to be something that you either refuse or are incapable of doing.

But guess what, I'm not even going to try any more. I tried to explain it to you, I tried to get you to understand that the vast majority of people in the world, be the catholic, Hindu, Muslim or whatever are peaceful law abiding people - but you wont have it - you would rather grasp on to your cartoon view of the world, where one group is all bad and another is all good. If you feel comfortable with the idea of deamonising entire sections of society, for things they have little to do with, no control over and which they have no way to prevent, then fine. That's your call.

Now if you ever do want to try to make a distinction between all Muslims and all terrorists - be sure to let me know and we can talk again.

Quote:

Wow sounds like someone is sucking up everything CNN says. One group is protesting and many of them I would guess are from out of Iraq. But we are handing over control in June and I think the average citizen wants it.

Sorry I don't watch CNN much. Besides which these attacks are being reported on pretty much every major TV channel around the world - except Fox News - who if you listen to them regularly make it sound as if the Iraqis have thrown their doors open to the Americans and have more or less embraced them as liberators and brothers.

Oh well that's Rupert Murdoch for you. He produces a Newspaper in the UK called the Sun, who's average reading age (that is the reading level needed to be able to read and understand all of it's contents) is 5 years old. From what I can figure out, it looks like Fox News falls into the same category. So maybe it is you who is seeing a warped sense of reality - and who just can't see what is really going on.

[QUOTE]It's a country which is now actively using terrorism. Of course you're going to see a lot of chaotic things. But right now they're directed at us, and thankfully not the innocent civilian population, which I fear it'll spread to if we left prematurely.[QUOTE]

Maybe... But if you are happy with the role of punching bag, then that's up to you. But really a lot of civilians are being killed - by some estimates as much as 5 and a half thousand civilians have died since the war ended, mainly at the hands of the Americans - but often as a result of being caught in the crossfire between ordinary people and those involved in the fighting.

I don't know if it will get any better or any worse when the Americans leave - but if The Iraqis decide that is what the Americans and British to do, I certainly think we should respect their wishes. How about you?

I mean what if they called a referendum asking for us to leave - and those proposing the referendum won? What do you think we should do then?

GJ

kp59583 · Apr 8, 2004, 11:12 AM

My opinion we should leave. I used to think we should stay for the duration but I don't think it going to be resolved anytime soon. The smart Iraqs probaby want us to stay cause they know whats going to happen if we leave. Right now the focus is on us and the rest of the forces in Iraq. When we leave they will be a three way battle for Irag with probably the Sunnis getting the short end of the stick.

raid517 · Apr 8, 2004, 12:27 PM

That doesn't sound too far away from the bounds of possibility. Right now all the Americans are, are a punch bag upon which the Iraqis can vent all their frustrations. I don't see how it's possible to win. The more Iraqis that resist the more people the US army kills - the more people the US army kills - the more frustrated people there are and the more frustrated they become. It's a catch 22 with the only possible outcome being that you succeed in turning the entire country against you.

Getting out in the shorter term would at least help limit this damage - although it will be bloody (though interesting) to say the least to watch what happens after the Americans and British do leave. (Oddly enough though the Brits don't seem to have as much trouble in the South. There is a few bits and pieces I guess, but nothing major. Possibly its due to the Brits somewhat more low key approach - and maybe because they have done in the South what they have always done - and treated war like a business opportunity. Unlike Baghdad - Basra is booming - because basically the first thing the Brits did was open up the economy begin importing goods. I'm not too sure what the morality of all that is, but oh well, it seems to work. I think the bottom line is that the Brits tend to think that when people are prosperous they will generally be peaceful. So maybe that's where the focus should have been from the start in Baghdad - rather than simply running around hunting terrorists?)

Anyway from whatever angle you look at it the prediction is that it's going to be bloody. Is there too much resentment now to turn things around? Is there any real political will in Washington to try? Or will their obsession with militarism and hunting terrorists prevent them from seeing a way forward? Who knows - but with each day that passes the prospect a viable solution becomes ever more distant.

Its a nightmare dilemma - and is not a decision that will be easy for anyone to make.

GJ

bird chest · Apr 9, 2004, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
Because you are still doing it. Hey I'm trying to cut you a break here - but you insist on going back to a stance where you compare all Muslims to terrorists.

And just to clarify for you I have not just been talking about Muslims - I have tried 50 times already (apparently unsuccessfully) to get you to make a distinction between ordinary Muslims and terrorists. But somehow it appears to be something that you either refuse or are incapable of doing.

But guess what, I'm not even going to try any more. I tried to explain it to you, I tried to get you to understand that the vast majority of people in the world, be the catholic, Hindu, Muslim or whatever are peaceful law abiding people - but you wont have it - you would rather grasp on to your cartoon view of the world, where one group is all bad and another is all good. If you feel comfortable with the idea of deamonising entire sections of society, for things they have little to do with, no control over and which they have no way to prevent, then fine. That's your call.

Now if you ever do want to try to make a distinction between all Muslims and all terrorists - be sure to let me know and we can talk again.GJ

I challenge you to find one place where I have said all muslims are extremists. I have not so once you will stop putting word in my mouth I will begin the discussion with you. The only thing I have said is that at this point in time there are obviously more muslim terrorists then christian.

bird chest · Apr 9, 2004, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517

Sorry I don't watch CNN much. Besides which these attacks are being reported on pretty much every major TV channel around the world - except Fox News - who if you listen to them regularly make it sound as if the Iraqis have thrown their doors open to the Americans and have more or less embraced them as liberators and brothers.

Oh well that's Rupert Murdoch for you. He produces a Newspaper in the UK called the Sun, who's average reading age (that is the reading level needed to be able to read and understand all of it's contents) is 5 years old. From what I can figure out, it looks like Fox News falls into the same category. So maybe it is you who is seeing a warped sense of reality - and who just can't see what is really going on.GJ

I was kidding about the cnn thing. No Fox news is not that bad so stop making it sound so just because they have different political views then you.

bird chest · Apr 9, 2004, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kp59583
My opinion we should leave. I used to think we should stay for the duration but I don't think it going to be resolved anytime soon. The smart Iraqs probaby want us to stay cause they know whats going to happen if we leave. Right now the focus is on us and the rest of the forces in Iraq. When we leave they will be a three way battle for Irag with probably the Sunnis getting the short end of the stick.

We can't leave. That is out of the question. We started this now we have to finish it. We have to rebuild Iraq. More people died in the spanish american war then in this war. Back then we had a smaller military too. The Germans testing their jets for WWii lost 1/3 of all the men we have lost so far. That is such a chicken thing to do, we can't leave till the job is done!!

If we leave now just imagine the consequences. We would make more terrorists from people who hate us for leaving. We would give satisfaction to the terrorists that they made the most powerful country in the world run. Like it or not we must stay.

bird chest · Apr 9, 2004, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
That doesn't sound too far away from the bounds of possibility. Right now all the Americans are, are a punch bag upon which the Iraqis can vent all their frustrations. I don't see how it's possible to win. The more Iraqis that resist the more people the US army kills - the more people the US army kills - the more frustrated people there are and the more frustrated they become. It's a catch 22 with the only possible outcome being that you succeed in turning the entire country against you.

Getting out in the shorter term would at least help limit this damage - although it will be bloody (though interesting) to say the least to watch what happens after the Americans and British do leave. (Oddly enough though the Brits don't seem to have as much trouble in the South. There is a few bits and pieces I guess, but nothing major. Possibly its due to the Brits somewhat more low key approach - and maybe because they have done in the South what they have always done - and treated war like a business opportunity. Unlike Baghdad - Basra is booming - because basically the first thing the Brits did was open up the economy begin importing goods. I'm not too sure what the morality of all that is, but oh well, it seems to work. I think the bottom line is that the Brits tend to think that when people are prosperous they will generally be peaceful. So maybe that's where the focus should have been from the start in Baghdad - rather than simply running around hunting terrorists?)

Anyway from whatever angle you look at it the prediction is that it's going to be bloody. Is there too much resentment now to turn things around? Is there any real political will in Washington to try? Or will their obsession with militarism and hunting terrorists prevent them from seeing a way forward? Who knows - but with each day that passes the prospect a viable solution becomes ever more distant.

Its a nightmare dilemma - and is not a decision that will be easy for anyone to make.

GJ

Maybe it's cause the brits are the coolest people in the world (just imagine the most sarcastic statement you have ever heard). Or maybe it is because we are occupying the places where the civilians benefited from Saddam. Maybe because you are in the shiite region. The area where saddam abused. But you ignore all those facts. Not to say that there is not truth to your statement. I do agree with some of it.

kp59583 · Apr 9, 2004, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bird chest
We can't leave. That is out of the question. We started this now we have to finish it. We have to rebuild Iraq. More people died in the spanish american war then in this war. Back then we had a smaller military too. The Germans testing their jets for WWii lost 1/3 of all the men we have lost so far. That is such a chicken thing to do, we can't leave till the job is done!!

If we leave now just imagine the consequences. We would make more terrorists from people who hate us for leaving. We would give satisfaction to the terrorists that they made the most powerful country in the world run. Like it or not we must stay.

I used to think that we should stay because running would be worst thing you could do but if we don't stop whats happening now it will only get worse. The more you go after the terrorist the more civilians die and with that more hatred is formed. I was watching TV the other day and they had this Iraq women screaming if I had a gun I would kill Amercans. She was asking why the amercans did this,which I think somebody in her family was killed in a crossfire. I got the inpression that she didn't care weither the terrorist started the fight or not. Now mutiply that by hundreds or thousands and you have a big problem on your hands. If we pulled out I don't think it would be completly. I think we would probably move into Kurdish territory and protect them. They've seemed to have been our friends from way back from the first Iraq war.

The_Neon_Cowboy · Apr 9, 2004, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ^_^
The terrorist groups are mad because Spain sent troops to Iraq. They might've put a new political power in that said they'd withdraw from Iraq, and they tried to bomb it again? Oy.

actaully the guy they elected said he was gonna pull thier troops from iraq, and alquida rejoyiced anf planted bombs, people dies to get this guy elected

then once elected he said he would wait a year before any with drawl, and alquida got mad planted bombs this time found, hofeully to expeadiate spains with drawl useing SCARE TATICS, or to punish/boost thier canidate they got elected in some way

that all i have to say about that...

raid517 · Apr 9, 2004, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bird chest
Maybe it's cause the Brits are the coolest people in the world (just imagine the most sarcastic statement you have ever heard). Or maybe it is because we are occupying the places where the civilians benefited from Saddam. Maybe because you are in the Shiite region. The area where Saddam abused. But you ignore all those facts. Not to say that there is not truth to your statement. I do agree with some of it.

Well there are many reasons - some historical too - many Iraqis still have warm feelings towards the British from days gone by. Some of them were traditional allies of the British - and sided with them against the other tribes even when Iraq was trying to obtain Independence. But again this is probably because having the Brits around was good for business - rather than anything to do with any underlying sense of loyalty. All I'm saying is that if you are going to behave like imperialists then maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing to take a leaf out of the imperialists book? Flood people with cheap goods, invest money into developing the economy, liberalize the tax regime, make it easy for people to get rich - and when the country is on its feet , then look again at perhaps regulating everything properly again.

Like I said, you have to convince the people of the benefits of occupation before they will accept it. Even then it's unlikely to be a long term thing - as when they are able to stand on their own two feet they generally tend to start questioning why they even need you around. This is something the Brits have learned to their cost in the past - so for now I expect that we are more tolerated than welcome. Nothing more.

Quote:

I challenge you to find one place where I have said all Muslims are extremists. I have not so once you will stop putting word in my mouth I will begin the discussion with you. The only thing I have said is that at this point in time there are obviously more Muslim terrorists then Christian.

Well it is exactly that that I object to. There are many Christian terrorist groups around the world (not least of them the IRA) based in many countries around the world, as I said, try Lebanon, try Indonesia, try Somalia, try America with the anti-abortionists - anywhere in the world you look you are likely to find Christian terrorist organizations. I do not think there are 'many more' Islamic terrorist groups at all - what I do think is that the activities of Islamic terrorist groups is much more widely reported - and that this happens for ideological reasons - and also that this causes people like you to think that either most Muslims are involved in terrorism, or are associated with it, or actively support it.

As for not calling all Muslims terrorists well - I'm paraphrasing a little but I believe you did say, 'As far as not talking about Muslims, this is what this thread is about!' Which as I said confuses me, because I thought this thread was about terrorists - not about all Muslims.

Anyway it is a holiday weekend in the UK and I don't want to spend it arguing with you guys.

Best regards for now.

GJ

bird chest · Apr 9, 2004, 07:22 PM

Like you said every bomb makes 10 new terrorists. Thus there would be more muslim terrorists that is all I am saying. Also they are more active right now.

raid517 · Apr 9, 2004, 07:44 PM

Mmm... but I still get the impression that it would take an awful lot of bombs to create the as many Islamic terrorists as you appear to think there are.

Quote:

Also they are more active right now.

No they are more active aginst America you mean. There are other countries in this world you know, many of which are severely affected by the activities of Christian terrorist organisations. The problem is you only tend to notice the ones who are going after Americans.

GJ

bird chest · Apr 10, 2004, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
Mmm... but I still get the impression that it would take an awful lot of bombs to create the as many Islamic terrorists as you appear to think there are.

No they are more active aginst America you mean. There are other countries in this world you know, many of which are severely affected by the activities of Christian terrorist organisations. The problem is you only tend to notice the ones who are going after Americans.

GJ

We have droped a lot of bombs. And isreal, Iraq, Uzbekistan, spain, etc...

zerodamage · Apr 10, 2004, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
Mmm... but I still get the impression that it would take an awful lot of bombs to create the as many Islamic terrorists as you appear to think there are.

No they are more active aginst America you mean. There are other countries in this world you know, many of which are severely affected by the activities of Christian terrorist organisations. The problem is you only tend to notice the ones who are going after Americans.

GJ

Christian terrorist organizations? Name a couple please.

~~bluelight~~ · Apr 10, 2004, 09:34 AM

Well there is currently a whole army in Uganda right now.

"the Lord's Resistance Army"

They use kidnapped children as soldiers.

They have been getting economic support from Christian orhanisations outside Africa and they are today considered as the worst terror organisation when it comes to the amount of human suffering they impose on the population.

Bluelight

raid517 · Apr 10, 2004, 01:42 PM

KKK US
IRA UK
Christian Identity US
Any one of the several militia groups that Timothy McVeigh aligned himself with.
The AUC in Columbia a far right Catholic organisation dedicated to battling leftist forces.
The The Sudanese Lord's Resistance Army a mainly protestant group who are currently involved in a bloody civil war in the region.
ETA in Spain, again another traditionally Catholic group
Aryan Nations US - another supposedly Christian group
Phalange militia in Southern Lebanon, responsible for several attacks on elected Lebanese officials
The Ilagas in the Philippines - a term used to describe a loosely banded group of government sponsored thugs, who's apparent objective is to eliminate all Muslims from that country.
The Red Force Christian Militia (and other affiliated groups) in Indonesia...

Sigh I really wish I didn't have to do this. I told you it was a holiday - and I would much rather spend it doing other things.

In any case I could go on. Pretty much everywhere you look you are likely to find Christian groups responsible for various atrocities. It's not my fault you guys only seem to watch 60 second world news programs. There are still other groups that are simply white and somewhat more agnostic in origin - but the point remains that there is a lot of terrorist activity outside the borders of the USA - and by no means the largest percentage of this is perpetrated by Muslim extremists. I trust therefore that now we have established this we can finally put this issue to bed?

Quote:

We have dropped a lot of bombs. And Israel, Iraq, Uzbekistan, Spain, etc...

You have certainly not dropped any bombs on Spain, Israel or Uzbekistan...

Look mate... I will explain this once and for all. When I said that each bomb we drop creates 10 more terrorists, it was meant as an 'analogy'. You weren't meant to take it literally. What I meant in saying it is the longer we stay the more resentment will be built. Yes there will be more terrorists, but it's not an exact mathematical equation. Going by your estimates and the way things have been going recently and the number of bombs that are falling, we would have created nearly 2 million new terrorists in 5 years, in 10 years - just as you appear to like to assume is true now - possibly every Muslim in the region will be a terrorist. (Including women and babies). In maybe 15 years or so every Muslim on Earth would be a terrorist.

If you can't see how dumb a perspective that is I'm not even going to try to help you to see past it. Everything seems to be so black and white for you. There doesn't seem to be any middle ground at all. How odd the world must look from inside your head.

GJ

digerati · Apr 11, 2004, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
It's not my fault you guys only seem to watch 60 second world news programs.
GJ

Funny

raid517 · Apr 11, 2004, 12:03 PM

Well it's kind of true. I often find it hard to watch some American news shows - because they seem to focus almost excusively on America and how everything relates to America. Unfortunately I'm sorry to say that not everything does.

GJ

bird chest · Apr 12, 2004, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
Well it's kind of true. I often find it hard to watch some American news shows - because they seem to focus almost excusively on America and how everything relates to America. Unfortunately I'm sorry to say that not everything does.

GJ

You must be kidding of course the world revolves around the US.

(if you can't tell I am kidding)

digerati · Apr 12, 2004, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bird chest
You must be kidding of course the world revolves around the US.

(if you can't tell I am kidding)

That may be truer than you think. We're on a lot of news stations almost daily lol

bird chest · Apr 13, 2004, 07:37 AM

In places that have news stations. How much of the world watches tv? In US it is a lot but...

Apr 8, 2004, 11:12 AM	#62
kp59583 DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 121 Rep Power: 0	My opinion we should leave. I used to think we should stay for the duration but I don't think it going to be resolved anytime soon. The smart Iraqs probaby want us to stay cause they know whats going to happen if we leave. Right now the focus is on us and the rest of the forces in Iraq. When we leave they will be a three way battle for Irag with probably the Sunnis getting the short end of the stick. __________________ ATHLON XP 2600+ K7N2G-LISR 512 SAMSUNG PC2700 ACER DVD DRIVE memorex DVD recorder WD 80GIG 7200 HARDDRIVE AUDIGY2 SOUND CARD 4 FANS, ANTEC 350W PWR SUPPLY ATI 9700 PRO

Apr 8, 2004, 12:27 PM	#63
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	That doesn't sound too far away from the bounds of possibility. Right now all the Americans are, are a punch bag upon which the Iraqis can vent all their frustrations. I don't see how it's possible to win. The more Iraqis that resist the more people the US army kills - the more people the US army kills - the more frustrated people there are and the more frustrated they become. It's a catch 22 with the only possible outcome being that you succeed in turning the entire country against you. Getting out in the shorter term would at least help limit this damage - although it will be bloody (though interesting) to say the least to watch what happens after the Americans and British do leave. (Oddly enough though the Brits don't seem to have as much trouble in the South. There is a few bits and pieces I guess, but nothing major. Possibly its due to the Brits somewhat more low key approach - and maybe because they have done in the South what they have always done - and treated war like a business opportunity. Unlike Baghdad - Basra is booming - because basically the first thing the Brits did was open up the economy begin importing goods. I'm not too sure what the morality of all that is, but oh well, it seems to work. I think the bottom line is that the Brits tend to think that when people are prosperous they will generally be peaceful. So maybe that's where the focus should have been from the start in Baghdad - rather than simply running around hunting terrorists?) Anyway from whatever angle you look at it the prediction is that it's going to be bloody. Is there too much resentment now to turn things around? Is there any real political will in Washington to try? Or will their obsession with militarism and hunting terrorists prevent them from seeing a way forward? Who knows - but with each day that passes the prospect a viable solution becomes ever more distant. Its a nightmare dilemma - and is not a decision that will be easy for anyone to make. GJ

Apr 9, 2004, 07:22 PM	#71
bird chest DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 454 Rep Power: 0	Like you said every bomb makes 10 new terrorists. Thus there would be more muslim terrorists that is all I am saying. Also they are more active right now.

Apr 10, 2004, 09:34 AM	#75
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Well there is currently a whole army in Uganda right now. "the Lord's Resistance Army" They use kidnapped children as soldiers. They have been getting economic support from Christian orhanisations outside Africa and they are today considered as the worst terror organisation when it comes to the amount of human suffering they impose on the population. Bluelight

Apr 11, 2004, 12:03 PM	#78
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Well it's kind of true. I often find it hard to watch some American news shows - because they seem to focus almost excusively on America and how everything relates to America. Unfortunately I'm sorry to say that not everything does. GJ

Apr 13, 2004, 07:37 AM	#81
bird chest DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 454 Rep Power: 0	In places that have news stations. How much of the world watches tv? In US it is a lot but...