bluelight

That site is part of the regular hatepropganda.

The Us government is to blame for this part of it through its launch of the hate campaign against Europe.

A campaign which to its nature was sickening in its stupidity.To some..."sickening stuff" is nice and cozy so they willl buy this deck of cards.

French fries anyone?

Ultimatley..the torture is the result of the same thing.


Bluelight

bluelight

The Foxbat may also be equipped with advanced Russian- and French-made electronics that were sold to Iraq during the 1990s in violation of a U.N. ban on arms sales to Baghdad.


This is the closest you are gonna get......and these are assumptions by a magazine.

I want to see statements and verifications from your goverments that says one of the mentioned nations broke the embargo.

bluelight

RELATED SITE
The New Yorker: Torture at Abu Ghraib



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Officer Suggests Iraq Jail Abuse Was Encouraged (May 2, 2004)






TIMES NEWS TRACKER



Topics


Iraq




Prisoners of War




United States Armament and Defense




Report on Abuse Faults 2 Officers in Intelligence
By JAMES RISEN

Published: May 3, 2004


n internal Army investigation has found a virtual collapse of the command structure in a prison outside Baghdad where American enlisted personnel are accused of committing acts of abuse and humiliation against Iraqi detainees.

A report on the investigation said midlevel military intelligence officers were allowed to skirt the normal chain of command to issue questionable orders to enlisted personnel from the reserve military police unit handling guard duty there.

The Army has already begun one investigation into the abuse allegations. Maj. Gen. George R. Fay, the incoming deputy commander of Army intelligence, is examining the interrogation practices of military intelligence officers at all American-run prisons in Iraq and not just the Abu Ghraib prison.

A second review was ordered Saturday by Lt. Gen. James R. Helmly, head of the Army Reserve, to assess the training of all reservists, especially military police and intelligence officers, the soldiers most likely to handle prisoners. Six members of an Army Reserve military police unit assigned to Abu Ghraib face charges of assault, cruelty, indecent acts and maltreatment of detainees.

Gary Myers, a lawyer for Staff Sgt. Ivan L. Frederick II, one of the enlisted men charged in the case, requested over the weekend that the Army open a court of inquiry into the abuse at Abu Ghraib, a move that would expand the investigation beyond the six enlisted personnel to look at the broader command failures.

The widening prison-abuse scandal in Iraq, which has stirred anger in the Arab world just as the Marines have tried to defuse a bloody confrontation in Falluja, holds the potential to damage efforts by American officials to meet a June 30 deadline to transfer limited self-rule to the Iraqi people. It appeared to have caught senior Pentagon officials and some top officers off guard on Sunday, despite President Bush's condemnation of the abuses on Friday.

Appearing on three Sunday talk shows, Gen. Richard B. Myers, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, gave conflicting answers when asked if the problems at Abu Ghraib were systemic throughout detention centers in Iraq.

At first, General Myers insisted that the instances of mistreatment were not widespread and were the actions of "just a handful" of soldiers who had unfairly tainted all American forces in Iraq. But when pressed, he acknowledged that he had not yet read a classified, 53-page Army report completed in February by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba, first reported in the May 10 issue of The New Yorker, that chronicled the worst of the abuses at Abu Ghraib. General Myers left open the possibility the abuses could be broader, saying, "We don't know that yet."

A spokesman for Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said that the secretary had not been briefed on General Taguba's report either, but had been kept abreast of the investigative process.

General Myers also acknowledged that he had asked the CBS News program "60 Minutes II" to delay broadcasting photographs of the abuses taken by guards inside the prison to avoid worsening tensions in Iraq at a time when attacks against American forces are on the rise and one soldier is being held hostage by insurgents. "I thought it would be particularly inflammatory at that time," General Myers said on the ABC News program "This Week."

The Taguba report, as well as other documents seen Sunday by The New York Times, also reveal a much broader pattern of command failures than initially acknowledged by the Pentagon and the Bush administration in responding to outrage over the abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison.

The report on General Taguba's investigation identified two military intelligence officers and two civilian contractors for the Army as key figures in the abuse cases at Abu Ghraib. In his internal report on his findings in the investigation, General Taguba said he suspected that the four were "either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuses at Abu Ghraib and strongly recommended disciplinary action."

The Taguba report found that they were never properly trained or supervised. It found that in effect, the military police were told to soften up the prisoners so they would talk more freely in interrogations conducted by intelligence officials.

The Taguba report states that "military intelligence interrogators and other U.S. Government Agency interrogators actively requested that M.P. guards set physical and mental conditions for favorable interrogation of witnesses." It noted that one civilian interrogator, a contractor from a company called CACI International Inc., based in Arlington, Va., and attached to the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, "clearly knew his instructions" to the military police equated to physical abuse.

The Taguba report's sharpest criticism was for officers in charge of the military police and military intelligence units in the prison.

bluelight

News just in.

6 officers have got their punishment.

They lost the job as officers.


Well....Torturing muslims obviously doesnt render more than so.

Who could have guessed.

Bluelight

zerodamage

Your anger over some Iraqi's being shown nude is funny considering I heard no anger from you when American soldiers were torn apart, hung from bridges, dragged through streets and murdered.

bluelight

Shown nude?

Well ...

Speaking of denial.....but that takes all prices...

Are you saying that systematic torture carried out by nations that claim they have a mission to liberate..is acceptable..or even unavoidable or ...exactly what are you trying to tell me?

Shown nude?

I mean ..are you joking? Pissing on someone lying hooded on the floor?Using broomsticks to penetrate people sexually?

Forcing nude prisoners to have sex wirth each other?

Beating prisoners to death?

Forcing dogs on prisoners?

Forcing someone to stand on a box with electrical wires attached to his body and claiming that if he eventually falls from the box he will be electrocuted?

Building pyramids of naked bodies that have written insult done on their bodies...while the torturer (a woman!) stands beside grinning like a pig!

Or likethe Brits :

Picking up innocent people in the streets and then beat them to death?

all of this.....in Saddams very own torture center taken over...for the very same purposes



by the...liberators..


Is showing people nude?

You have messed up completly and this ...seals it for good.Whatever you had set up for Iraq...Forget it.

Do you understand this?

Showing people nude...man i think im dreaming.



Bluelight

bluelight

Qoute Zero D

"Your anger over some Iraqi's being shown nude is funny considering I heard no anger from you when American soldiers were torn apart, hung from bridges, dragged through streets and murdered."



If a bunch of illiterate morons and criminals did this...then i DO SEE A SLIGHT DIFFERENCE TO THAT than to what an ORGANISED ARMY IN SERVICE OF DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM does the very same thing.

The difference is....i dont expect illiterate idiots to act like anything else than illitertae idiots.

However i do expect the Us army and the British army to act..at least according to what they say they say is their mission to do.

Systematic torture was never announced as part of that mission.

However im not surprised since your own MR Donald said during the Afghanistan conflict (When two prisoners where beaten to death at Bagram airbase) that "the question of torture ..was relative and that a certain amount of "light torture"(the word torture was left out of course) was sometimes necessary.

It seems some took him by his words on that doesnt it?

Liberators...The worlds best trained army...yeah right.

Just as shitty as the russians...............


Edit ing......Sorry about the tone.Its not personal.Im just upset...


Bluelight

bird chest

An act by a few individuals tells nothing for an entire army. So you really need to get off bashing our countries just because you are anti-war. These people in our militaries who beat people are a even slimar minority I would say then islamic fundamentalists. And I don't hold it against all of them. This is a terrible thing but it is not a reason to pull out. Also a lot of the stuff you said was not fact like the two cia people beating somone to death.

bluelight

It is a fact.Two prisoners were beaten to death at Bagram.Prisoners were beaten to death in Bagdad and Basra.

The report about the beatings in Bagdad made by this US generalmajor states this through witnesses.Witnesses that most likely are Americans.......They would hardly have been accepted in thre report unless the witnesses were American.

The British has beaten at least one innocent man to death according to a British soldier that was present on the ocasion.

Its all there....if you care to read.

These events are not margin notes in this campaign but one may have to be of other origin than average white westerner to understand this.

I am not saying that this applies to all of your army.

I am saying hat there is a system fault within it that makes for this to happen.

The "loose" statements by Rumsfeld and others about what is acceptable or not when interrogating prisoners makes for things like these to happen because it leaves it up to individuals to decide ....what is acceptable...and...a Nazi mind or a person under extreme stress (you will find them everywhere in wartime) will interpret the rules ...very widely.

I read a statement by an intelligence officer in Afghanistan by the time of the beatings in Bagram airbase that killed two persons.

I dont think he had anything to do with it but he said something like:

An interrogator that doesnt violate human rights in some way or another...is probably not doing his job.

Well there we go........Where are the outer limits?

Without ZERO tolerance you will end up in a swamp of judgements about WHAT is acceptable and at the lowest level where you find the most stressed people....you will get the fatal errors...like the ones mentioned, and of course...only the ones at the lowest level will pay for the loose rules.At large we all loose...in credibility.



It is also a BIG disappointment to me because although i dont approve of HOW this war started i do support the removal of Saddam and i had confidence that the "coalition" would be able to arrange this in the end somehow.

These episodes will make this very very hard to achieve.That is my belief.

Bluelight

bird chest

I can agree with that. But as to the CIA thing if you do not even know who the witnesses are it is hardly a reliable source I am not saying it is not true but you can not bank on the fact that it is. But I wish the UN would take over but I do not think it will happen because one way or another their is no leaving this country until the problem is solved.

bluelight

Well the testimonies are credible enough to be in a report made by a US General Major three months back or so....a report that is now on the table of your highest military commanders who refer to it publicly.



Bluelight

raid517

Like I said many times in the past, this is what happens when a global power in the absence of any counterballance declares openly that it is no longer subject to international laws and treaties.

What we have here may be a small minority, then again it might not. That remains to be uncovered. But it is an indication of something, a symbol of ethical and moral decay. America it seems is rapidly decending towards the unenviable position of being seen as a barbarian nation in the eyes of the world. With the almost wholesale suspension of human rights, it appears rightly or wrongly in many peoples eyes that the US is becomming exactly the kind of country and regime that the civilised world has struggled against for the last 70 years , both in WWII, the cold war and beyond.

Rumsfeld has previously openly expressed his support for using torture as a means of extracting information from 'terrorist suspects'. See my previous thread on this topic here. link

Now Rumsfeld's dirty little secret is out. The idelogical debate is over and the theory has been put into practice. With so much talk of the use of torture and other extreme means of extracting information, I very much doubt that this is an issue that is confined to a few rouge soldiers operating without a clear chain of command. It seems given all the evidence that this must go much further, that perhaps these practices enjoyed the tacid approval of indiviuals much higher up the scale - and that indeed it must lead back to Donal Rumsfeld himself.

He must and should go. The Abu Ghraib prison should be emptied and the prisoners disperesed to humane purpose build locations and the jail itself should be leveled to the ground. That is the only real act of contrition that would serve to restore at least a small measure of faith in the so called allied mission in Iraq.

Right now Rumsfeld has admitted responsibility - yet he refuses to accept the concequences. Crime without concequence is not the message that those who have been traditionally suspicious of the American mission in Iraq really need to hear right now.

He should go now. He must not delay. The longer he stayes the more damage will be done to American credibility.

We have to ask also what would have happen if these photos hadn't been leaked? Is everyone seriously saying that no one knew anything until these photos came to light?

It makes me feel gut sick. I can almosst see why now so many people have opted to take up an armed struggle agisnst your country. (Not that I agree with their methods though).

You seem to be a country that has gone off the rails. An unrivaled power with no other viable natural enemies. At least during the cold war we had a ballance. The US didn't dare to fuck about too much, because if it did the concequences were potentially terrible.

Now there are no such checks - and it appears that the US in its effort to assert itself on the world scene is simply stomping over everything it encounters.

I don't personally feel hatred for America (although I can understand those who do). What I feel is sadness, a deep and increasingly hopeless sadness, both for the passing of what America once was and what it has now become.

I predict there will be an almighty struggle and one day the American empire will fall. Perhaps it wont happen in my lifetime, but it is comming. I don't know if what unseats America in her global military dominace of the world will be a good thing either. But right now going by the way things have happend over these last few years, it seems that it could hardly be any worse.

I wish I understood more why any of this happend, or why it needed to happen - or why even there are many people here who appear to support torture as a legitamate interrogation method. To my mind the people who did this are lower than animals. Just because someone else behaves badly it gives no right to decent individuals to mimic their behaviour.

I guess shit like this was always going to happen.

GJ

bluelight

Without the hate campaigns it wouldnt necessarilly have happened.

Rumsfeld announced yesterday that there´s more to come and its gonna be uglier than what we have seen do far.

He is preparing for the avalanche that is to come in hope he wont drown in it.

The same thing applies to Britain where new soldiers that are members of the Lancashire regiment now say they are prepared to testify and also to give out the names of the responsible tortureres.

The images were not fake.

They also claim that the torture has been going on for a long time and that everyone was aware of it including senior officers.

These people obviously have a problem with......" ragheads "....and it is kind of the rsponsibility of the army ..not so send mentally crippled people to the battlefield or to send mentally crippled people home the minute they stop acting according to the good book...wheter the good book is the general instruction for military in a civilised nation or the bible.

Bluelight

bluelight

This...Lynndie England will now be trialed as it says officially.

Good that means that she will have a lawyer and unless she is taken to a war tribunal this lawyer will want to have answers to certain questions.

If one reads the dócument below about another woman charged for the same thing then it is easy to see what the answers to these question will be and of course...that will lead to that those REALLY responsable will be charged.


Leasing war duties .to private enterprises according to some moron liberal idea isnt such a good idea after all .

Bluelight













Soldier: Unit's Role Was to Break Down Prisoners
Reservist Tells of Orders From Intelligence Officers
By Jackie Spinner
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, May 8, 2004; Page A01


There were no rules, by her account, and there was little training. But the mission was clear. Spec. Sabrina D. Harman, a military police officer who has been charged with abusing detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, said she was assigned to break down prisoners for interrogation.




"They would bring in one to several prisoners at a time already hooded and cuffed," Harman said by e-mail this week from Baghdad. "The job of the MP was to keep them awake, make it hell so they would talk."

Harman, one of seven military police reservists charged in the abuse of detainees at the prison, is the second of those soldiers to speak publicly about her time at Abu Ghraib, and her comments echo findings of the Army's investigation into prisoner abuse there. That probe documented the maltreatment of detainees and found the prison was chaotically run, that there were no apparent rules governing interrogations and that Harman's military police unit was ill trained for the job it was asked to perform.

Harman, a 26-year-old Army reservist from Alexandria, said members of her military police unit took direction from Army military intelligence officers, from CIA operatives and from civilian contractors who conducted interrogations. She did not discuss abusive treatment of prisoners or clarify who specifically ordered such treatment, and she referred questions about the charges against her to her attorney, who declined to comment.

Her face is now famous as belonging to one of two soldiers posing in the widely published photograph of naked Iraqi detainees stacked in a pyramid. The picture is one of several that have inflamed the Arab world and brought condemnation from President Bush and other U.S. political and military leaders.

Harman is accused by the Army of taking photographs of that pyramid and photographing and videotaping detainees who were ordered to strip and masturbate in front of other prisoners and soldiers, according to a charge sheet obtained by The Washington Post. She is also charged with photographing a corpse and then posing for a picture with it; with striking several prisoners by jumping on them as they lay in a pile; with writing "rapeist" on a prisoner's leg; and with attaching wires to a prisoner's hands while he stood on a box with his head covered. She told him he would be electrocuted if he fell off the box, the documents said.

In her e-mails, Harman said detainees would be handed over to her military police unit by Army intelligence officers, by CIA operatives or by the contractors. The Army probe into Abu Ghraib said the U.S. government used employees of private companies as interrogators and interpreters along with intelligence officers. Two of the civilian contractors are under investigation in connection with the abuses.

Prisoners were stripped, searched and then "made to stand or kneel for hours," Harman said. Sometimes they were forced to stand on boxes or hold boxes or to exercise to tire them out, she said.

"The person who brought them in would set the standards on whether or not to 'be nice,' " she said. "If the prisoner was cooperating, then the prisoner was able to keep his jumpsuit, mattress, and was allowed cigarettes on request or even hot food. But if the prisoner didn't give what they wanted, it was all taken away until [military intelligence] decided. Sleep, food, clothes, mattresses, cigarettes were all privileges and were granted with information received."

She said the prison had no standard operating procedures and on Tier 1A, where suspected insurgents were held, Army and other intelligence officers "made the rules as they went."

Harman joined the Army as a reservist in 2001, after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. She was assigned to the 372nd, based in Cresaptown, Md. The company was called up for duty in February of last year and deployed to Fort Lee, Va., for three months before heading to Iraq.

Harman, an assistant manager at a Papa John's Pizza in Fairfax County before being sent to Iraq, said the company received additional training at Fort Lee, but it was for "combat support, not I/R," the military term for internment and resettlement. She said she was never schooled in the Geneva Conventions' rules on prisoner treatment.

"The Geneva Convention was never posted, and none of us remember taking a class to review it," Harman said. "The first time reading it was two months after being charged. I read the entire thing highlighting everything the prison is in violation of. There's a lot."

In the Army report on conditions at the prison, Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba said that "soldiers were poorly prepared and untrained to conduct I/R operations prior to deployment, at the mobilization site, upon arrival in theater and throughout their mission."